Need help with car audio....

[orion23]

Hello!

I bought a JVC head unit, DV6200 DVD / CD player 50W X 4 channels / built in amplifier....

2 6X9 Kenwood KFC 6999 ie speakers in the rear 0-75W(300W peak power) and 2 1689 ie speakers in the front 0-50W (200W peak power).

So, the head unit alone shouldn't even max these speakers in terms of power, right?

The volume range goes from 0 to 50, but as soon as I hit 32, sounds gets distorted already...

Do I need a real amplifier?

Do I need better speakers that can really take up to 50W of constant power?

With no amp or subwoofer...is it better to have 2 way speakers? or 3/4 way speakers?

Thanks!

 

[scorp00]

You need a real amp, 50 watts peak means it's only putting out 20 something watts rms.

 

[Black88GTA]

Originally posted by: orion23
Hello!

I bought a JVC head unit, DV6200 DVD / CD player 50W X 4 channels / built in amplifier....

2 6X9 Kenwood KFC 6999 ie speakers in the rear 0-75W(300W peak power) and 2 1689 ie speakers in the front 0-50W (200W peak power).

So, the head unit alone shouldn't even max these speakers in terms of power, right?

The volume range goes from 0 to 50, but as soon as I hit 32, sounds gets distorted already...

Do I need a real amplifier?

Do I need better speakers that can really take up to 50W of constant power?

With no amp or subwoofer...is it better to have 2 way speakers? or 3/4 way speakers?

Thanks!

The figure you should be concerned with is RMS power, not peak. That head unit is not putting out anywhere near 50wx4 RMS. More like 22 watts RMS per channel, and that's being generous. Deck power and coaxial speakers are good for a quick, easy installation, but not for SQ.

A real amplifier will make an unbelievable difference. Do you need it? No, but your music just won't sound very good, or play cleanly at high volumes without it. Those speakers probably aren't the greatest, but will sound 1000x better if properly powered with an external amp. I'd do an amp before replacing the speakers. Even a $4,000 set of speakers will sound like shit off of deck power.

I prefer component speakers myself (separate tweeters, crossovers, and mids) but coaxials can sound good too. I'd run at least 2-ways, as large speakers cannot accurately reproduce high frequencies, and vice versa.

 

[orion23]

Thanks guys....

Quality is not an issue here...really....the system sounds great...I love the way it sounds.

I just wish I could make it louder... which is what I don't get...Even if I get an amp, then the speakers clearly won't be able to handle the extra power since the sound is already getting distorted???

Now, the ratings on these speakers are very similar to any other set I compare them to...

300W max, 0-75, 93db....

I want to make it sound louder....don't care if the speakers have to go....or the head unit...or if I have to buy an amp! How about some suggestions???

6X9 ?

6 1/2?

Thanks!

 

[Black88GTA]

Originally posted by: orion23
Thanks guys....

Quality is not an issue here...really....the system sounds great...I love the way it sounds.

I just wish I could make it louder... which is what I don't get...Even if I get an amp, then the speakers clearly won't be able to handle the extra power since the sound is already getting distorted???

Not the case at all. The speakers are distorting because they are not getting the power they need to play cleanly at those volumes. An external amp, properly matched to the speakers, would fix this. Of course, if you don't set the gains properly and the speakers get too much power, they will again distort...but this time, it will be because they are getting too much power. Either way, if you run them at the point of distortion for too long, you will blow them. Most speakers blow not because they are fed too much power, but too little.

Now, the ratings on these speakers are very similar to any other set I compare them to...

300W max, 0-75, 93db....

I want to make it sound louder....don't care if the speakers have to go....or the head unit...or if I have to buy an amp! How about some suggestions???

6X9 ?

6 1/2?

Thanks!

Like I said. Your speakers at this point are not the issue. It is the power they are (not) getting. You need an amp to do what you want to do. A decent 4 channel amp properly set up and matched to the speakers will do wonders.

**EDIT: Now, if you properly power them and they are still not where you want them to be, that's when it may be time to look at new speakers. 50 - 75W RMS power handling is fairly low. But don't make any decisions on that until you see what they sound like after you amp them. You can always get a more powerful amp than you need and be careful with the volume and set the gains conservatively so you don't pop your speakers.**

I have a rather crappy amplifier, purchased off Amazon for $110 shipped, running a set of 6-3/4" separates (rated at 150w RMS) and a set of 6x9 coaxials (rated at 100w RMS). I normally would never have bought something like this amp, but I got it for a specific purpose (sort of a long story). So I was going to replace it, but decided to give it a shot and install it anyway. And, it actually does a very respectable job for what I need it to do. Truth be told, I was very surprised with it.

What is your budget?

 

[cheesehead]

1. Coaxial speakers are generally pretty awful. High-grade tweeters capable of playing low enough to work with a cone mid-woofer require large resonance chambers, which simply won't fit. There are some exceptions, but these are usually quite small (4") and expensive.

2. Don't mix crossovers, woofers, and tweeters. A crossover is HIGHLY specific to the speaker drivers you're using.

3. Buy used. Diymobileaudio.com has lots of great deals.

4. If you're willing to DIY a crossover, OEM drivers are EXTREMELY cheap.

5. Odds are your receiver is "clipping" at high volumes, distorting the sound. A better amp won't do this until you hit much higher volume levels.

6. Volume is logarithmic. For double the volume, you need TEN TIMES the power.

7. Volume = power * efficiency. Inexpensive low-end pro audio drivers may be as much as 10DB more efficient than your speakers, meaning that they'll make the same noise at 1/10 the power as your current speakers - or play twice as loud at the same level. They're generally a bit big and SQ could be better, but cheap and loud is hard to beat.

 

[LS21]

i can type paragraphs of response to this. and so can other people. and also its my experience online that 50% of people are misinformed about 20%, and 25% are misinformed about 30%, about car audio and electronics in general.

that said, a quick answer to your question about getting more clean volume with current set up is you need an amplifier. dont have to spend big bucks. get a cheap but decent and reliable brand.

 

[Sea Moose]

Originally posted by: Black88GTA

Originally posted by: orion23
Hello!

I bought a JVC head unit, DV6200 DVD / CD player 50W X 4 channels / built in amplifier....

2 6X9 Kenwood KFC 6999 ie speakers in the rear 0-75W(300W peak power) and 2 1689 ie speakers in the front 0-50W (200W peak power).

So, the head unit alone shouldn't even max these speakers in terms of power, right?

The volume range goes from 0 to 50, but as soon as I hit 32, sounds gets distorted already...

Do I need a real amplifier?

Do I need better speakers that can really take up to 50W of constant power?

With no amp or subwoofer...is it better to have 2 way speakers? or 3/4 way speakers?

Thanks!

The figure you should be concerned with is RMS power, not peak. That head unit is not putting out anywhere near 50wx4 RMS. More like 22 watts RMS per channel, and that's being generous. Deck power and coaxial speakers are good for a quick, easy installation, but not for SQ.

A real amplifier will make an unbelievable difference. Do you need it? No, but your music just won't sound very good, or play cleanly at high volumes without it. Those speakers probably aren't the greatest, but will sound 1000x better if properly powered with an external amp. I'd do an amp before replacing the speakers. Even a $4,000 set of speakers will sound like shit off of deck power.

I prefer component speakers myself (separate tweeters, crossovers, and mids) but coaxials can sound good too. I'd run at least 2-ways, as large speakers cannot accurately reproduce high frequencies, and vice versa.

This.

Chicks love amps

 

[Sea Moose]

Originally posted by: LS21
i can type paragraphs of response to this. and so can other people. and also its my experience online that 50% of people are misinformed about 20%, and 25% are misinformed about 30%, about car audio and electronics in general.

that said, a quick answer to your question about getting more clean volume with current set up is you need an amplifier. dont have to spend big bucks. get a cheap but decent and reliable brand.

The reason car audio is so confusing, is because the voltage is under 50v

Therefore its not regulated.

I think that they need to be more clear about what amp can match up with which speakers etc.

 

[orion23]

Awesome guys!

Looking through craigslists, ebay and our own forums for a nice, cheap amp....

I'll probably have more questions later....

Thank you all again!

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: Sea Moose

Originally posted by: LS21
i can type paragraphs of response to this. and so can other people. and also its my experience online that 50% of people are misinformed about 20%, and 25% are misinformed about 30%, about car audio and electronics in general.

that said, a quick answer to your question about getting more clean volume with current set up is you need an amplifier. dont have to spend big bucks. get a cheap but decent and reliable brand.

The reason car audio is so confusing, is because the voltage is under 50v

Therefore its not regulated.

I think that they need to be more clear about what amp can match up with which speakers etc.

It's not that....most people do not understand how to match impedance. An amp usually cleans up the problem because it will compensate for the different impedance, but you can still go wrong in that route too. For stock, 2 to 4 is good, but if you get 2 ohms, your deck is going to work harder....but if you go to 4 ohms, your deck may not have the balls to power it (which is what is going on here). That's how you know which amp will match up with what speakers...by impedance matching.

 

[evident]

i have a 4 channel amp linked up to 6x9's and component fronts. after reading some forums i am starting to feel that i should go with just component fronts and a sub in the back for sound imaging purposes. a nice set of components in the front should be able to give you all the volume you need and the sub should provide the bass, no need to hear high frequencies and vocals coming from behind your head.

 

[alkemyst]

funny how the 'experts' cry about RMS...and then say 22WRMS is nothing....

I will agree with the rating on that RMS making it nothing.

With efficient speakers a true 22W would be loud.

 

[Black88GTA]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
funny how the 'experts' cry about RMS...and then say 22WRMS is nothing....

I will agree with the rating on that RMS making it nothing.

With efficient speakers a true 22W would be loud.

So you're saying that 22w of "true" RMS power is sufficient to get "efficient" aftermarket speakers to play cleanly when you turn the volume up? OK then. :roll:

It would probably sound OK at moderate volumes. When turned up though - it might be "loud" but it sure as hell wouldn't be clean, regardless of efficiency rating. Especially during peaks in the music (bass hits and the like). Sounds like that's the problem the OP is trying to overcome in the first place.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Black88GTA

Originally posted by: alkemyst
funny how the 'experts' cry about RMS...and then say 22WRMS is nothing....

I will agree with the rating on that RMS making it nothing.

With efficient speakers a true 22W would be loud.

So you're saying that 22w of "true" RMS power is sufficient to get "efficient" aftermarket speakers to play cleanly when you turn the volume up? OK then. :roll:

It would probably sound OK at moderate volumes. When turned up though - it might be "loud" but it sure as hell wouldn't be clean, regardless of efficiency rating. Especially during peaks in the music (bass hits and the like). Sounds like that's the problem the OP is trying to overcome in the first place.

Most aren't rated with their real output....

look at a speakers 1w/m DB rating.

This would be a good read http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_...nfo/how_much_power.htm

 

[hans030390]

Originally posted by: Black88GTA
A real amplifier will make an unbelievable difference. Do you need it? No, but your music just won't sound very good, or play cleanly at high volumes without it. Those speakers probably aren't the greatest, but will sound 1000x better if properly powered with an external amp. I'd do an amp before replacing the speakers. Even a $4,000 set of speakers will sound like shit off of deck power.

This is overly exaggerated. A decent amp will help speakers play cleanly at louder volumes. Plus, the sound is cleaner overall. It will sound a bit better. Don't get his hopes up that an amp will make an unbelievable difference. His speakers are on the lower end...the amp won't make much of a SQ difference, just distortion levels at higher volumes. I had some nice Boston Acoustic coaxials powered by my headunit. They sounded fine. With a nice amp, they sounded about the same...just a bit cleaner, mostly at higher volumes. Nothing "amazing" about it. Your choice of words will make him disappointed in the end. He'll expect too much from the amp.

Now, if he had a nice set of component speakers, THEN the amp will make a big difference.

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
2. Don't mix crossovers, woofers, and tweeters. A crossover is HIGHLY specific to the speaker drivers you're using.

This isn't always true. I have my woofers mixed with a different brand of tweeters. I use the crossovers that came with the tweeters (mostly because can attenuate them down more than with the other crossovers). Now, they have the same crossover point, so that helps. Other than that, they sound just fine.

Generally, though...yeah, you don't mix crossovers. But in my case, it has worked out very well and sounds great (the woofers are just too far away from my head, heh).

 

[alkemyst]

Pioneer TS-A coaxial type speakers are a great budget addition.

 

[jtvang125]

Originally posted by: LS21
i can type paragraphs of response to this. and so can other people. and also its my experience online that 50% of people are misinformed about 20%, and 25% are misinformed about 30%, about car audio and electronics in general.

that said, a quick answer to your question about getting more clean volume with current set up is you need an amplifier. dont have to spend big bucks. get a cheap but decent and reliable brand.

There's so much misinformation on car audio is because the majority of people that are into car audio aren't the smartest of all people. Go to any online car audio forum and you'll quickly see.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: jtvang125

There's so much misinformation on car audio is because the majority of people that are into car audio aren't the smartest of all people. Go to any online car audio forum and you'll quickly see.

can just do that here.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: Black88GTA
So you're saying that 22w of "true" RMS power is sufficient to get "efficient" aftermarket speakers to play cleanly when you turn the volume up? OK then. :roll:

22W through a pair of 110dB efficient Klipschorns would make your head explode. How you'd fit them in a car, I don't know.

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: evident
i have a 4 channel amp linked up to 6x9's and component fronts. after reading some forums i am starting to feel that i should go with just component fronts and a sub in the back for sound imaging purposes. a nice set of components in the front should be able to give you all the volume you need and the sub should provide the bass, no need to hear high frequencies and vocals coming from behind your head.

I think you are on the right track there. All of your mids and highs should come from the front. Bass too, if you can fit a woofer in your center console.

Component speakers always sounded way better to me than coaxes.

 

[Black88GTA]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Black88GTA

Originally posted by: alkemyst
funny how the 'experts' cry about RMS...and then say 22WRMS is nothing....

I will agree with the rating on that RMS making it nothing.

With efficient speakers a true 22W would be loud.

So you're saying that 22w of "true" RMS power is sufficient to get "efficient" aftermarket speakers to play cleanly when you turn the volume up? OK then. :roll:

It would probably sound OK at moderate volumes. When turned up though - it might be "loud" but it sure as hell wouldn't be clean, regardless of efficiency rating. Especially during peaks in the music (bass hits and the like). Sounds like that's the problem the OP is trying to overcome in the first place.

Most aren't rated with their real output....

That pendulum swings both ways. You would have a very tough time finding an amp that is claiming 22w RMS of output power that is "overrated" by the manufacturer. However, there are plenty of "low power" amps with stated specs that are are quite a bit UNDERrated. Your 22w RMS amp (by a respected brand) is very likely to be putting out quite a bit more than that.

And I'm familiar with how efficiency works. Something tells me the OP doesn't have the most efficient speakers though, and a decent amplifier will benefit almost any aftermarket speaker setup compared to deck power.

 

[Black88GTA]

Originally posted by: hans030390

Originally posted by: Black88GTA
A real amplifier will make an unbelievable difference. Do you need it? No, but your music just won't sound very good, or play cleanly at high volumes without it. Those speakers probably aren't the greatest, but will sound 1000x better if properly powered with an external amp. I'd do an amp before replacing the speakers. Even a $4,000 set of speakers will sound like shit off of deck power.

This is overly exaggerated. A decent amp will help speakers play cleanly at louder volumes. Plus, the sound is cleaner overall. It will sound a bit better. Don't get his hopes up that an amp will make an unbelievable difference. His speakers are on the lower end...the amp won't make much of a SQ difference, just distortion levels at higher volumes. I had some nice Boston Acoustic coaxials powered by my headunit. They sounded fine. With a nice amp, they sounded about the same...just a bit cleaner, mostly at higher volumes. Nothing "amazing" about it. Your choice of words will make him disappointed in the end. He'll expect too much from the amp.

Now, if he had a nice set of component speakers, THEN the amp will make a big difference.

Well, this is true, I guess. Any system is only as good as its weakest link...if an amp were added, this would then fall on the speakers. But they will play louder and cleaner with an amp, which is what the OP stated that he wants. If he adds an amp and it still sucks, then it's time to look at speakers.

 

[Black88GTA]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: jtvang125

There's so much misinformation on car audio is because the majority of people that are into car audio aren't the smartest of all people. Go to any online car audio forum and you'll quickly see.

can just do that here.

OK, then, you seem to consider yourself an expert on the subject, yet all you've done is post insults and condescending remarks. Why don't you actually make a valid contribution? Please, enlighten the masses with your godlike car audio knowledge. We're all waiting...