Need help with building a Training Room A/V System

[Syran]

We tried to get a local company to do it, but they just didn't seem to be in line with our ideas, and I guess we just weren't putting enough money into the project for them to seem to want to spend the time working on it with us. Unfortunately, the market in our area is small, and it's not a HUGE project (least for companies that do this stuff), so can't really get anyone out of town to come in to look at it.

SO... I'm now in charge of setting up a full A/V system for the new training room we are building. Oh, and I'm not a big Audio/Video kinda guy, I'm just the computer guy who got unlucky.

We want to make this look as clean and professional as humanly possible, while still being DIY.

The room is Rectangular, 47' long x 23' wide. It will have 18 desks (each 5' wide, 2 desks together) with a single 3' center isle. We plan to put an instructor's desk at the front; setup with a permanent computer; as well as a 2ndary location to be used for a laptop for presentations. The room will have wireless internet capabilities.

Currently Considered Components:
Projector: Infocus IN42 3000 ANSI for lights on projection capability
Receiver: Unknown
DVD/VCR: Panasonic DMR-EZ47VK
Remote: Philips Pronto TSU960 w/ RFX9600 advanced serial extender.
Speakers: Unknown

Currently my plan is to run a single HDMI connection out of the PC, split to a local monitor, and off to an A/V receiver. There would also be VGA & a 1/8" audio cable to the receiver for the laptop connection. The VGA would go directly to the projector, while the audio would go back to the receiver.

All A/V Components would reside in a rack in a room behind the training room, due to this I need an RF based remote control, or some form of IR extender, to this extent I am looking at the Philips Pronto TSU960 w/ the advanced serial extender to give RF based remote control access to all the devices. I have yet to decide what receiver to use; and I will be also adding both DVD & VHS players to the mix as well. I have recently seen a combo player that can display both thru HDMI, into the receiver.

I will be sending the audio signal to 6 overhead in the ceiling speakers. Beyond that, I have no clue on what to use. Finally, we are also considering adding a microphone system, which could hopefully have it's audio signal put on top of whatever other audio (either from a computer or video).

Anyone have some ideas for speakers, an AVR, or other devices I may need?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

I'm kind of confused about your plans to run VGA to the projector. It seems that you might want to run HDMI from the primary computer to the A/V receiver, run VGA to the A/V receiver as well, then run a single HDMI from the receiver to the projector. That would allow the source switching on the A/V receiver to route the output from either the laptop or primary computer to the projector and it would automatically control audio source switching between the two systems as well.

Maybe you have a good reason for not doing it that way though?

 

[Syran]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm kind of confused about your plans to run VGA to the projector. It seems that you might want to run HDMI from the primary computer to the A/V receiver, run VGA to the A/V receiver as well, then run a single HDMI from the receiver to the projector. That would allow the source switching on the A/V receiver to route the output from either the laptop or primary computer to the projector and it would automatically control audio source switching between the two systems as well.

Maybe you have a good reason for not doing it that way though?

I've not found a receiver that does VGA inputs. Have to use VGA for the alternate connection, as not many laptops have HDMI or DVI output types. I have seen a VGA -> Component style connection, which could then be upconverted to HDMI, but i'm worried about the resolution quality, and being able to properly transmit a good resolution over the VGA->Component->receiver->HDMI connection. If anyone does know of a AVR w/ VGA inputs, please let me know!

Also, I've found it a bit harder to find 3 HDMI input receivers, vs. 2. I have a limit, but it's not small, say $15-20k or so; but i'm trying my best to come under that.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Syran

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm kind of confused about your plans to run VGA to the projector. It seems that you might want to run HDMI from the primary computer to the A/V receiver, run VGA to the A/V receiver as well, then run a single HDMI from the receiver to the projector. That would allow the source switching on the A/V receiver to route the output from either the laptop or primary computer to the projector and it would automatically control audio source switching between the two systems as well.

Maybe you have a good reason for not doing it that way though?

I've not found a receiver that does VGA inputs. Have to use VGA for the alternate connection, as not many laptops have HDMI or DVI output types. I have seen a VGA -> Component style connection, which could then be upconverted to HDMI, but i'm worried about the resolution quality, and being able to properly transmit a good resolution over the VGA->Component->receiver->HDMI connection. If anyone does know of a AVR w/ VGA inputs, please let me know!

Also, I've found it a bit harder to find 3 HDMI input receivers, vs. 2. I have a limit, but it's not small, say $15-20k or so; but i'm trying my best to come under that.

I don't know if you already have the laptop, but check out this Dell laptop. It has an HDMI port:

http://www.dell.com/content/pr...&s=dhs&~tab=bundlestab

There are some reasonably priced ($700 - $1000) Onyo and Yamaha receivers that have 3 HDMI inputs too.

 

[Syran]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Syran

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm kind of confused about your plans to run VGA to the projector. It seems that you might want to run HDMI from the primary computer to the A/V receiver, run VGA to the A/V receiver as well, then run a single HDMI from the receiver to the projector. That would allow the source switching on the A/V receiver to route the output from either the laptop or primary computer to the projector and it would automatically control audio source switching between the two systems as well.

Maybe you have a good reason for not doing it that way though?

I've not found a receiver that does VGA inputs. Have to use VGA for the alternate connection, as not many laptops have HDMI or DVI output types. I have seen a VGA -> Component style connection, which could then be upconverted to HDMI, but i'm worried about the resolution quality, and being able to properly transmit a good resolution over the VGA->Component->receiver->HDMI connection. If anyone does know of a AVR w/ VGA inputs, please let me know!

Also, I've found it a bit harder to find 3 HDMI input receivers, vs. 2. I have a limit, but it's not small, say $15-20k or so; but i'm trying my best to come under that.

I don't know if you already have the laptop, but check out this Dell laptop. It has an HDMI port:

http://www.dell.com/content/pr...&s=dhs&~tab=bundlestab

There are some reasonably priced ($700 - $1000) Onyo and Yamaha receivers that have 3 HDMI inputs too.

This is for when someone from outside our organization needs to use their own laptop (for whatever reason), and hook it up to our system. We will have a computer connected their for our own internal use.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Syran

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Syran

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm kind of confused about your plans to run VGA to the projector. It seems that you might want to run HDMI from the primary computer to the A/V receiver, run VGA to the A/V receiver as well, then run a single HDMI from the receiver to the projector. That would allow the source switching on the A/V receiver to route the output from either the laptop or primary computer to the projector and it would automatically control audio source switching between the two systems as well.

Maybe you have a good reason for not doing it that way though?

I've not found a receiver that does VGA inputs. Have to use VGA for the alternate connection, as not many laptops have HDMI or DVI output types. I have seen a VGA -> Component style connection, which could then be upconverted to HDMI, but i'm worried about the resolution quality, and being able to properly transmit a good resolution over the VGA->Component->receiver->HDMI connection. If anyone does know of a AVR w/ VGA inputs, please let me know!

Also, I've found it a bit harder to find 3 HDMI input receivers, vs. 2. I have a limit, but it's not small, say $15-20k or so; but i'm trying my best to come under that.

I don't know if you already have the laptop, but check out this Dell laptop. It has an HDMI port:

http://www.dell.com/content/pr...&s=dhs&~tab=bundlestab

There are some reasonably priced ($700 - $1000) Onyo and Yamaha receivers that have 3 HDMI inputs too.

This is for when someone from outside our organization needs to use their own laptop (for whatever reason), and hook it up to our system. We will have a computer connected their for our own internal use.

Sorry, I missed that part and didn't realize it was for guests.

A potential solution:

http://www2.dvigear.com/vgatodvicosc.html

You could then run a DVI-->HDMI cable from the scaler to the A/V receiver.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm kind of confused about your plans to run VGA to the projector. It seems that you might want to run HDMI from the primary computer to the A/V receiver, run VGA to the A/V receiver as well, then run a single HDMI from the receiver to the projector. That would allow the source switching on the A/V receiver to route the output from either the laptop or primary computer to the projector and it would automatically control audio source switching between the two systems as well.

Maybe you have a good reason for not doing it that way though?

If he's getting a good remote, it's not going to really matter though since you'll be able to program it to change the input on the projector and the receiver at once.

If a primary goal of this is to have it work easily for anyone and have it be a clean install, it's too bad that getting a company to do it didn't work out.

Do you have a drop down ceiling in the room that you can hide wires in at least?

The speakers are already there and installed?

I'm really not into professional type installations at all so I'm not coming in here to pretend to be an expert on all this

Have you tried looking for advice over at AVSforum yet?

There are a lot of members over there that actually do this for a living and would have helpful advice for you (if you can actually get them to look at your thread).

 

[Syran]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm kind of confused about your plans to run VGA to the projector. It seems that you might want to run HDMI from the primary computer to the A/V receiver, run VGA to the A/V receiver as well, then run a single HDMI from the receiver to the projector. That would allow the source switching on the A/V receiver to route the output from either the laptop or primary computer to the projector and it would automatically control audio source switching between the two systems as well.

Maybe you have a good reason for not doing it that way though?

If he's getting a good remote, it's not going to really matter though since you'll be able to program it to change the input on the projector and the receiver at once.

If a primary goal of this is to have it work easily for anyone and have it be a clean install, it's too bad that getting a company to do it didn't work out.

Do you have a drop down ceiling in the room that you can hide wires in at least?

The speakers are already there and installed?

I'm really not into professional type installations at all so I'm not coming in here to pretend to be an expert on all this

Have you tried looking for advice over at AVSforum yet?

There are a lot of members over there that actually do this for a living and would have helpful advice for you (if you can actually get them to look at your thread).

We do have a drop down ceiling, we are refitting an old store front into the training room; we will be running the speak wire and all that as part of the refit. I have also posted over in AVS, but figured it couldn't hurt to post here either.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm kind of confused about your plans to run VGA to the projector. It seems that you might want to run HDMI from the primary computer to the A/V receiver, run VGA to the A/V receiver as well, then run a single HDMI from the receiver to the projector. That would allow the source switching on the A/V receiver to route the output from either the laptop or primary computer to the projector and it would automatically control audio source switching between the two systems as well.

Maybe you have a good reason for not doing it that way though?

If he's getting a good remote, it's not going to really matter though since you'll be able to program it to change the input on the projector and the receiver at once.

If a primary goal of this is to have it work easily for anyone and have it be a clean install, it's too bad that getting a company to do it didn't work out.

Do you have a drop down ceiling in the room that you can hide wires in at least?

The speakers are already there and installed?

I'm really not into professional type installations at all so I'm not coming in here to pretend to be an expert on all this

Have you tried looking for advice over at AVSforum yet?

There are a lot of members over there that actually do this for a living and would have helpful advice for you (if you can actually get them to look at your thread).

I'm primarily concerned about the cable run for the VGA signal. Digital video signals have no degradation over longer runs, up to a certain max length. For VGA signals it's dependent on signal bandwidth. Higher resolutions mean a shorter maximum run length. For example, the max recommended run for 1280 x 1024 is 50 ft. While that may seem like a lot of footage, by the time you consider a cable running into the floor, up a wall, and over the ceiling, footage can be eaten up quickly.

Additionally, imo, it's a much more elegant and simple solution to program a remote to change the source on an A/V receiver than it is to control the source I/O on multiple pieces of equipment.

I agree with your suggestion of asking at AVS Forum. A lot of good information can be had there.

 

[herm0016]

why not get something like this, add amplifier's for your in-ceiling speakers, using the mixer as the source and call it good?

http://www.touchboards.com/Smart/smartmp250.asp

i have seen similar systems that have been installed in rooms without the podium. it seems like a system like this is just what you are looking for. it has inputs for a microphone, for a laptop, another computer, you can play the dvds with the computer or use a stand alone player hooked into the system. It has audio mixing so that you can have the microphone and other sources at the same time. the only thing i think this paticular model seems to be missing is control for a projector, but i know it can be done, most of the lecture halls have a similar podium w/ control for 1 or 2 projectors along with all the other stuff in them.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Well for less than the cost of a good converter from VGA to DVI / HDMI, it would also be possible to get a range extender for the VGA signal (like a converter to CAT5... and active one to really be sure) that would extend the range of the signal by quite a bit.

I don't have any personal experience with video runs longer than ~35 feet, so I don't know what would tend to get you better results in a case like this though.

As I understand it, HDMI also tends to get a bit questionable on runs longer than 50 feet if you're trying to get higher resolutions through as well.

 

[herm0016]

vga extenders do work well, we use one for a run that is about 400 feet, from our stage to the projector that is mounted in the catwalks in the back of the theater.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Well for less than the cost of a good converter from VGA to DVI / HDMI, it would also be possible to get a range extender for the VGA signal (like a converter to CAT5... and active one to really be sure) that would extend the range of the signal by quite a bit.

I don't have any personal experience with video runs longer than ~35 feet, so I don't know what would tend to get you better results in a case like this though.

As I understand it, HDMI also tends to get a bit questionable on runs longer than 50 feet if you're trying to get higher resolutions through as well.

I agree that a VGA-->CAT5 converter would be ideal, but a set of active converters would actually cost slightly more than a VGA-->DVI/HDMI converter/scalar, at least the ones I'm familiar with.

Most of the systems for A/V I've worked with are much higher end. They aren't used for conference rooms but involve runs spanning hundred of feet over multiple stories seperating the output into sound and video zones (A/V systems for theme park attractions) along with rows of racks of video processors and amps that would blow your mind. I can post a picture of the racks of Crown amps we used for Expedition: Everest at Animal Kingdom if you'd like to see it. Because of that experience my penchant is to remove or reduce analog input/output where ever possible. But that same scale probably causes me to recommend a bit of overkill too.

So it's good these choices are being discussed even if we don't see eye-to-eye. At least it provides Syran with a number of options to choose from.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Yeah, I really don't have experience with what particular products would be good VGA to CAT5 converters vs. poor performing ones, but based on the ones I looked at it seemed like one that would do 1280x1024 for a 200 foot run or so would cost less than $400. I'm sure I wasn't really looking at the best quality ones, but I don't know how much that matters.

I was thinking that say a converter costs $400 or so for a CAT5 over VGA. That means you'd need the converter and a relatively inexpensive and easy to run length of CAT5 cable. I'm not really sure how much a good active converter would run you for this sized application.

With the HDMI converter, you'd need the converter, and a long length of high quality HDMI cable that can get to the other room. Depending on how long that run is, the extra cable cost could be pretty significant as well.

With a budget like this though and ease of use being a priority though, I'm sure going simple HDMI switching would have an edge there though. A couple hundred dollars either way probably isn't going to be nearly as important as making it a robust system that's easier to use.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Yeah, I really don't have experience with what particular products would be good VGA to CAT5 converters vs. poor performing ones, but based on the ones I looked at it seemed like one that would do 1280x1024 for a 200 foot run or so would cost less than $400. I'm sure I wasn't really looking at the best quality ones, but I don't know how much that matters.

I was thinking that say a converter costs $400 or so for a CAT5 over VGA. That means you'd need the converter and a relatively inexpensive and easy to run length of CAT5 cable. I'm not really sure how much a good active converter would run you for this sized application.

With the HDMI converter, you'd need the converter, and a long length of high quality HDMI cable that can get to the other room. Depending on how long that run is, the extra cable cost could be pretty significant as well.

With a budget like this though and ease of use being a priority though, I'm sure going simple HDMI switching would have an edge there though. A couple hundred dollars either way probably isn't going to be nearly as important as making it a robust system that's easier to use.

Agreed. Unless the people who will be using this conference room are technically proficient in electronic and understand how source switching works (and, ime, many people don't have the first clue about that), the easier this is configured for use the better for everyone.

Besides, there no better time to be a little bit spendy then when you're spending someone elses money.

 

[Syran]

This is the only response I got from AVS so far. Gonna give a call to Parts Express to see if they have any recommendations.

Originally posted by: BIGmouthinDC @ AVS Forums
Having been a frequent trainer/presenter something to consider.

Listener fatigue: ever go to a meeting and the speaker gets up and says I think everybody can hear me. Then speaks loudly and says "can you hear me in the back?" and everyone nods their head yes. So the speaker doesn't bother to use a microphone. Well as time goes on their voice fatigues and you need to concentrate really hard to hear and pay attention. In fact often after 15 minutes 50% of the audience attention starts to wander.

For training you want it "in your face" theater loud. Get a wireless microphone system that clips to your belt and a lapel clip-on microphone.

The presenter then can speak at normal levels (saving their voice)
These are readily available and are used a lot at health clubs for group exercise. You will also find mixers that will mix the microphone feed with other audio signals.



As for speakers and receivers think about an array of in ceiling speakers with a speaker over every desk pair.

You need to think about Commercial speaker systems where they operate at a constant voltage 70v and allow you to connect as many speakers to the amp as you need without worrying about creating too low of an impedance which would happen if you used regular consumer speakers. YOU need to be aware that you need a special amp, not just the household variety.

Read:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...voltage_speaker_system


The folks at Parts express would be one go to source for some free phone advice as they carry a whole line of 70v commercial sound products:

http://www.partsexpress.com/commercial-sound.cfm

The users of the training room are hardly even close to really technically efficent users; so simplicity is best. I do have the luck however, of looking at a really programable remote, that can do multiple things at the press of a single button, such as (hopefully); switching the sound and the source on the projector at the same time. Of course, that's probably a whole nother issue trying to figure out how to actually do that. I'm just hoping at it's price, this remote works as advertised. I was also looking at the Logitech Harmony 1000 Remote, but it just doesn't seem up to snuff on the matter.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I'm using a harmony 880 with a couple receivers, a pre-pro, different source inputs, and a projector that has to have its input changed when going from different sources. Using the web interface to program it makes it a pretty simple process.

For the end user, they just have to press "Watch a DVD" and the remote does everything as advertised. From my own experience of using one once it's properly set up, that's why I thought switching inputs on the receiver and the projector would be no big deal since the actual switching that's occurring behind the scenes is hidden from the user. They just need to know what activity they're doing and hit that single button.

On the other hand, if for some reason something does go wrong (which happens a small percentage of the time), it may be more difficult to get things switched manually if it's a more complicated process. My harmony is very user friendly with a "Help" button that tries to troubleshoot for you, but I'm not sure if something else out there would be simpler.

 

[SlickSnake]

<snip>

I haven't gone wrong yet by purchasing Harman Kardon products for the last 8 years. I have bought refurb products online, from Ebay at their store and from their online store that were either in perfect refurb condition, or new in the box and sold as refurbs, including Infinity Interlude and Beta speaker systems. All their products bought from them as refurbs have a full manufacturers warranty, too.

Harman Audio Ebay Store

Harman Audio Online Store

They also make JBL products and higher end products, too! If you can afford them.

They do not lie on the actual output of their audio products, too. If they state 100 watts per channel at 8 ohms, they mean it. Their equipment will power lower 4 ohm loads, which many HT receivers will simply burn out trying to power continuously. Something to keep in mind when purchasing speakers, too.