Need Help Building CHEAP system...

[ripthesystem]

Ok here's the deal:

I'm going to help my brother build 3 cheap computers for the small business that he works for. No problem there. They want them as fast and as stable as they can get for under $300 each. And the kicker= NO AMD. Ugh. They insist on an Intel CPU..
Other requirements: 128mb ram, 10gb 7200 HD (minimum), quality NIC

So there lies my dilemma. I've come up with 2 viable solutions so far. I don't think they understand how expensive all this can get really quickly. New or Used doesn't matter at all so I may be able to cut some corners like that.. we'll see.

Anyways.. these are the 2 options I've come up with so far. Most of the prices are from Pricewatch.. some aren't. All of them include shipping.



1.2ghz celeron $76
Biostar M6TSU Mobo (Intel 815E, Socket 370, 1AGP, 6PCI, 1CNR 2SDRAM, ATX) $70
3Com Intel 10/100 PCI NIC $25
8mb Vid Card (probably ATI or Matrox) $20
52x CD-Rom $30
Onboard sound $--
128mb PC133 SDRAM (generic) $30
10gb Western Digital 7200rpm HD ... $60.00
Midtower Case 300W PS $40.00
Total: $351

Pentium III 600EB 133MHz bus $78
Biostar M6TSU Mobo (Intel 815E, Socket 370, 1AGP, 6PCI, 1CNR 2SDRAM, ATX) $70
3Com Intel 10/100 PCI NIC $25
8mb Vid Card (probably ATI or Matrox) $20
52x CD-Rom $30
Onboard sound $--
128mb PC133 SDRAM (generic) $30
10gb Western Digital 7200rpm HD ... $60.00
Midtower Case 300W PS $40.00
Total: $353


Will the Celeron be a better deal than the P3? are there any drawbacks to that system?
Are there better deals out there? different CPU's? Mobos? solutions that I'm missing? Any and all suggestions are welcome.

I need to get these prices down!!!
Thanks
ripthesystem

 

[Red Dawn]

Try a MSI 6368L MATX Motherboard. It uses the VIA PLE33T Chipset with integrated Video, Sound(CMI 8738) , NIC (Realtek) and 4 USB ports. It supports the Tualatin Celerons and it can be had for around $60.00 shipped. You save on the NIC, Video Card and the Motherboard. I've built a few systems with that board and since everyting is integrated there were zero issues with the Drivers (no problems at all using XP Pro and the 4 in1 VIA Drivers). You can use the money you save to buy CD-ROMS for those systems. You can also save on Cases as you won't need a 300 Watt Midtower as a MATX or even a Low Profile Desktop/Tower with a SFX 150 to 185 watt PSU would be enough to power them since you'll be using an integrated motherboard with a low power consuming CPU.

 

[Bleep]

Go HERE and look at the celron system they sell for 399. Price the parts out from someone else. dont forget the cost of the software.
Bleep

 

[ripthesystem]

thanks for the fast replies all..

some good points brought up. Doh! I forget to include the CD drive in the price.. updated the original post to reflect that..

software run is probably going to be NT4 w/latest service pack and is NOT a factor in my $300 allowance.

On to my questions. I agree that the VIA PLE33T Chipset will no doubt save me money in this endeavor but upon reading VIA's info on it.. it sounds more like an Internet Appliance motherboard.. what drawbacks would I have from using this chipset over an Intel chipset? Stability problems? Compatability(OS, future PCI cards?) I can't seem to find ANY info/reviews on this chipset at all.

Also what would be the difference between the MSI 6368L MATX mobo recommended or the Biostar M6VLQ which seems to be $10-15 cheaper. Any? they appear quite the same though I have very limited use with either brand.

Keep the help coming!
Thanks again
ripthesystem

 

[desy]

Try this

OK this is in Can$ but they ship to the US, It says like new but they are new in fact they are HP's with the badge removed as an End of line product, so about $359 USD cause that is the one of price too you get a price break for 3, comes with 8X4X32 burner and you can sub in a Lan card and take out the modem.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Also what would be the difference between the MSI 6368L MATX mobo recommended or the Biostar M6VLQ which seems to be $10-15 cheaper. Any? they appear quite the same though I have very limited use with either brand. >>

I'm not familiar with the Biostar Board so I really can't say if it is as good as the MSI.



<< sounds more like an Internet Appliance motherboard >>

Yeah when used with a C3 or in with the Via EDEN Platform. If you were building a gaming system then this board wouldn't be a good choice because the Trident Blade onboard Video has dismal 3D performance. For the price you are looking to spend, I think this makes since. At a little over $300.00 a system you aren't getting a Dell Dude. If you had a larger budget I would recommend an Intel (not a Biostar) i815e b Motherboard and a decent Video Card but you don't.

Anyway, I was just giving you an option to think about.

 

[johndoe52]

Could you save some money by buying two sticks of 64 instead of 1 stick of 128? Just a thought to save a couple bucks.

 

[Mithrander]

Try looking around the Hot Deals section for cheap motherboard +cpu bundles. So far, your mb and cpu costs you around $140 - I'm sure there was a deal floating around somewhere where you could get a celeron mb bundle for $89 or so. Might have been outpost.com or googlegear. But just look around the hot deals section and I'm sure something will come up. Should save you at least $40-$50, which will get your syustem price to just around $300.

Newegg also sells the Maxtor 20gb 5400rpm HD for $58. The next lowest priced HDE is a $64 Western Digital 20gb hard drive. I'd convince them to splurge those extra $$ for an additional 10gb of space - will be very helpful as their database grows.

Go for the celeron setup. P3's work fine, but the celeron setup is a bit more scalable in case they want to upgrade to a better vid card, more ram, more memory, etc. The difference will be more noticeable especially if they're running a graphics heavy program ala Photoshop.
No AMD??? No offense, but they're missing out on some great processors (not to mention a few screws).

Good luck.

 

[ripthesystem]

Thanks again for ALL the helpful info!

I've pretty much decided upon Red Dawn's advise.. Might go for the Biostar board and 2x64 ram to shave costs more... we'll see.
I've even convinced them on the Tualtin Celeron 1.2ghz.. and believe you me it was a tough sell. I said 'Celeron' and you should have seen them krinkle their faces. I know that AMD would be the perfect solution for these people but it's a NO GO all the way around. Bummer.

Anyways my main concern now is one word... STABILITY.

I haven't dealt with the newer Celerons at all and these guys main concern was how stable this setup was going to be. Does anyone know of any stability concerns with a Celeron chip? what about if paired with a VIA chipset. (No additional hardware should ever be needed..)

Thanks again guys..
stability stability stability..
that's basically what they said. So I don't want to screw them(myself) over. I've run P3's for years now and NEVER had an issue. Can I expect any with these?

TIA
ripthesystem

 

[johndoe52]

Do all the systems have to be the same? For instance, two of the systems have slower cpu's and smaller harddrives. Is what they're doing really going to need all that power anyways? My duron 1 Ghz works very well and I can't see a workstation getting much more stress that what I do with mine. Also maybe try an AMD solution too just to show them(although they may not even listen it's still worth a shot).

 

[FishTankX]

A way to shave off a few dollars.

American design Inc.

MICRO ATX Intel WL810E sound & video on board, NO LAN
(Part - WL810E ) 45$ + 5$ shipping or so

celeron 800 55$ shipped

MicroATX case with 180W power supply=30$

1X128MB PC133 non generic (generic is unstable) 40$ from crucial shipped

10GB WD 7200RPM harddrive 60$

Video onboard

Sound onboard

52X CDROM 30$

3COM/intel 10/100MB 25$

Comes out to around 300$$.

It's gonna be a tad bit slow but they won't notice and it'll be stable as hell. Combine Intel motherboard+Stable as heck chipset=Like a rock.

 

[FishTankX]

ripthesystem, Celeron's are basicly PIII's that have a failure in their cache and a portion of their cache won't work properly. Disable that half of the cache and rebadge as celeron. Off you go. Celeron's are basicly PIII's with half of their cache disabled.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Celeron's are basicly PIII's that have a failure in their cache and won't work properly >>

Uhh where did you hear this? I think you've been given some bad info there amigo. You might want to edit that before one of the rudeboys jumps down your throat

 

[FishTankX]

From what I know the Celeron core is a PIII that had a part of it's level 2 cache fail. They disable a portion of it and call it a celeron. If not, why do the PIII have the same die size and heat charachteristics? The new Celeron running at 1.2GHZ is completly different matter. The tualatin celeron is a PIII core running at 1.2GHZ with a 100MHZ FSB. But the celeron I was refering to was the Celeron of old. I.E. 533-1.1GHZ? Besides the cache failure, the only real difference is the FSB and Multiplier. Note:I told him this because the CPU I suggested was a Celeron800, which obviously isn't a 100MHZ FSB PIII. It has part of it's LVL2 cache disabled.

Note!!!:The celeron I am refering to is based on the .18 micron process. The one with the cache failure anyways.

Dispute me if you will.

 

[FishTankX]

Red dawn:Ah, you got me there! I forgot about the ascosciativity thingey.

Ok, so the Celeron128 is a PIII that had it's cache come out funny. Disable that part of the cache, half the ascosciativity, clock down the bus, ramp up the multiplier and call it a Celeron. [/b]There now you happy?

The fact of the matter is that architecturally, besides the cache the basic circuitry is identical to a PIII.

Same thing with the Duron. An Athlon core with less L2 cache.

 

[Red Dawn]

FishTankX


<< There now you happy? >>

It has nothing to do with me being happy and I'm not trying to one up you. In fact if you are right then I would be glad to be set straight on this matter as I was under that the FCPGA Celeron's were designed with only 128k cache which is set at a slower timing than the P3's cache. I never heard of them being P3 rejects because of bad cache.

 

[ripthesystem]

Hmmm.
Well I've done more reading and I understand that the older (non-Tualtin) celerons had only half of the L2 cache that the P3's had (which was only half of the available-Xeon) in the first place. Didn't find anything stating that the reason the cache was smaller was because of faulty cache.. not to say that it isn't.. or that it would matter in the long run.

It's the fact that the cache was only 128k in the first place that causes the large performance hits. (At least that's what I understand) And that's the reason that I was looking more towards the Tualtin version where the performance hit pretty much wouldn't be there..

I don't think I'd be able to talk them into an older version of the Celeron.. if they had the choice between a 900mhz Celeron and a 550-600 PIII.. they would choose the P3.

Perhaps thats the route I should take?
aye.. it gets so complex over so little

Red Dawn- are there any stability issues you know of between the MSI board and the Tual Cellies? how bout just the board itself?

thanks again all.. keep it coming.
ripthesystem

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Red Dawn- are there any stability issues you know of between the MSI board and the Tual Cellies? how bout just the board itself? >>

I haven't run across any. Make sure your get one that supports the Tualatin. All current models do but just to be sure make sure it's a revision 5 as the Rev 2+ only supports that Coppermine. Also don't forget to install the latest VIA 4 in1 drivers. You can download them at 4 in 1 Drivers It probably would be a good idea to order one first, build it and see if you like it.

This is OT but if you were looking to build a little Lan Box with a Tualie Celeron this board would be a decent choice615TCF as it lets you adjust the FSB 1 mhz at a time up to 166 MHZ. There's not Vcore adjustment but you usually can get pretty good OCs with the Default Voltage. A Tualie Celeron 1.0A should be able to ramp up to 1.33ghz with ease giving you a what would essentially be a P3 1.33 P3 running cooler than any P3 Coppermine.

New Egg has good deals on the Tualatin Cellies plus Free shipping

 

[Mavrick007]

Hehe Where did you read this crap? The Celeron is just a lower cost cpu with half the cache working at full speed of the processor while the P3 has higher cache working at half the speed of the processor.

Cache costs alot of money so that's why the P3 costs more than the "budget" based Celeron, not cause there was faulty cache.

Also the Celeron has higher L2 cache latency as quoted by Intel:

<< The 0.18 micron Pentium(R) III processor has 256KB of eight-way set associative on die L2 cache. The latest Celeron processor has 128K of four-way set associative on die L2 cache. Both processors have the same clock counts as far as latency. We don't disclose how many clocks, but they are the same for both products. >>



Also you can take a look at some of the differences here from the Anandtech Article on L2 Cache

While the P3 and Celeron are alot alike, they do differ in Cache and it's not cause some is faulty and that they disable some. Read up a bit before you make uneducated guesses.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Read up a bit before you make uneducated guesses. >>

Oh the humanity!!

 

[ripthesystem]

thanks for the links and info again Red Dawn.. useful stuff.
does anyone think there would be a noticeable difference between a Tualie 1.1a Celeron and a 1.2?? If not then I could shave off another $10 right there.. and this is actually starting to look like a feasable project. heh.

ripthesystem

 

[Quixfire]

I have personally been using the VIA C3 processor for my low dollar systems; have sold several to local business and a school.

ECS makes a nice board & cpu combo (ECS P6VEM2 includes VIA C3 CPU (667/733), Video, LAN, Audio, 2 DIMM, 3 PCI/1 ISA/1 AMR) for around $85.

If you add this and remove the items not needed with this board, you could build this for around $245.00.

 

[ripthesystem]

Well Quixfire I actually had looked over the Via CPU idea in my first look at this project.. but these guys have pretty much said that if the CPU isn't stamped with 'Intel' then they aren't buying it

ripthesystem

 

[Mithrander]

Another way to shave a couple bucks off your current config

Compugeeks is selling a Seagate 15gb 5400rpm hd for $52.

Link to Hot Deal

Still, for stability purposes, you might be better off purchasing a higher quality drive. I'm not too sure how well these Seagate drives hold up, so you might want to look around for reviews/complaints etc first.

 

[Odoacer]

Don't these guys want a 7200rpm HD?

Then again, who can tell the difference between a 5400 and a 7200?