NEED HELP: AGP Video Card with decent TV-Out

[NinthKey]

So I just upgraded my system to a Duron 700 MHz on an MSI K7T Pro motherboard. I cannibalized parts from my old PC to build this one, which means I'm still using an old Voodoo Banshee PCI video card. I'm thinking it's time to move up to AGP.

I'm not a big gamer by any stretch, save for MAME stuff, so rendering 3.3 quadrillion triangles per second isn't all that important to me. What I'd like to find is a good low-cost ($100 to $130) AGP 2x or 4x card with a quality TV output -- primarily for watching movies, as I don't have a stand-alone DVD player. I've heard mixed reviews about the Voodoo3 3500TV, and I'm not really sure I need something as advanced as a GeForce2 MX.

Any suggestions?

 

[NinthKey]

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

 

[EdipisReks]

the voodoo3 3500 is a good, fast card. for the money, though, i would get the geforce2 mx, unless you want the voodoo's tv tuner.

--jacob

 

[RobsTV]

After going from the following cards with TV out, STB Velocity 128, Canopus Total3d 128v, 3dfx V3 3k, I have determined that TV out on a video card is NOT the way to go.

Each upgrade requires you to spend the extra money to get the TV out feature. Also, most have limited TV out features, and resolutions to about 800x600.

Best solution is a PC to TV scan converter. In the $50 to $100 range, these will do 1024x768 or more, and have a lot more flexibility and adjustments compared to Video card TV out. But the best part is video cards will now cost less, as the extra cost of geeting one with TV out will not be needed.

AverKey imicro looks to be the best "low cost" scan converter at this time?

 

[NinthKey]

Okay, this is different. Is this a USB peripheral? (Avermedia's web site didn't say.) Will it work simultaneously with my monitor? Is it really a better option to keep my Banshee for now and get this instead of, say, an ABit Siluro GeForce2 MX with a TV/out? It would have to be one or the other, really.

 

[WetWilly]

RobsTV,

You did it again Even though you looked at multiple cards, all those cards all use either Rockwell/Brooktree/Conexant or Chrontel TV-outs, and those chips are definitely NOT the best available. In fact, all consumer video cards with TV-out EXCEPT Matrox and ATI use those chips, which is probably why TV-out on video cards gets a bad rap. Matrox and ATI each use their own custom chips. You really can't make a blanket statement on TV-out without evaluating both Matrox and ATI (neither of which is represented on that list of cards you've used). If you don't believe me, how do you think ATI could keep the All-In-Wonder series alive through 3-4 generations if the TV-out was crap? Or look at the Matrox Marvel G-series or Matrox's professional video editing stuff (which most people don't even know Matrox makes). In fact, TV-out support on the Matrox G450 is integrated on the G450 core itself - it's not even an add-on component. As for limited TV-out options, again you're ignoring Matrox and ATI. Cost? A Matrox 16MB SDR G450 DualHead with TV-out can be had for less than $100.

FYI, here's a quote from Anand's review of the Marvel G400 (which uses the same Matrox TVO chip that's been integrated onto the G450 core):

The TV Output on the Marvel G400 is obviously top notch and is equivalent to that of the two previous G400 based cards, but it is limited by a maximum resolution of 1024 x 768.

And here's a quote from Anand's review of the All-In-Wonder Radeon with ATI's Rage Theater chip:

The card features the same Rage Theater chip present in the regular Radeon cards, a chip that allows for both video output as well as input. The Rage Theater chip has always received praise in the lab for providing both excellent video-out as well as very high quality video-in. The chip found on our All-in-Wonder Radeon proved to be no exception

'Nuff said.

NinthKey,

If you're looking for a card with the best TV-out, look at Matrox or ATI. You can get OEM Matrox 16MB SDR DualHead cards with TV-out for as low as $79 (make sure it comes with the TV-out cable, though, otherwise the cable costs ~$10 from Matrox). You might be able to get an older ATI card, but it's not as flexible as the Matrox. Matrox's software DVD player also allows you to display DVD's full screen on the second output, whether it's a monitor or TV, without cluttering the display with any software controls. Again, if the DVD software doesn't come with the OEM card you can get it from Matrox for $7.

As for external VGA-to-TV convertors, for $80-$100 I'd take a Matrox G450 with TV-out over a comparably-priced AverKey any day. You really don't want to watch DVDs through a converter. Plus they use a VGA passthrough which can potentially degrade the quality of your computer's display. I'm not knocking them in an absolute sense, because they're useful if you don't have other choices. Since you're not a big gamer, the 3D on the Matrox will do just fine. And absolutely under ANY circumstances, do not get a Geforce2 MX card with TV-out. That's one instance where RobsTV's comment is correct.

 

[NinthKey]

Thanks for the advice, WetWilly. I hadn't given much thought to Matrox before, but I'm definitely looking into them now, especially since the G450 is about $30 cheaper than the Abit GeForce2 MX I was considering, not to mention much closer to what I'm looking for.

Of course, now I'm torn again -- do I jump on the G450 now, or do I wait until the G450 eTV comes out and then turn my PC into a TiVo equivalent?

Decisions, decisions...

 

[WetWilly]

Glad to help. The G450 eTV looks interesting, but I don't know when Matrox is going to ship it. If you're interested in TiVO-like functionality right now, check out the All-In-Wonder Radeon. I believe they can do the same thing.

Decisions, decisions...
Ain't that just the way it is ...

 

[IaPuP]

I'm doing some work with an All In Wonder Radeon.

Keep in mind that the TiVo is a kewl feature but it requires gigabytes of free harddrive space and your 700MHz Duron is going to be stretched to the Max.

Actually on an 850MHz TBird, I still get about 5% dropped frames under Win2k. Maybe Win 9x would be better for that.

The AIW Radeon is a sweet card but probably not in your pricerange. check out the AIW 128- its quite a bit faster than your Banshee but not NEARLY GeForce level (but neither is the G450)- That's why the AIW Radeon is so nice. It can nearly match a GeForce2 GTS at most games (except Q3A) and it has all the features you could possibly want or expect.

Eric

 

[NinthKey]

Actually, I'm still a little leery of ATI products, thanks to past driver problems and lower-quality rendering. Perhaps those aren't there now, but even if they are, I don't think I need Radeon-level 3D rendering. And yeah, the All-in-Wonder is indeed well out of my price range.

Just to cap off this thread, I went ahead and ordered a Millenium G450 with DualHead and TV-output today. I have neither the funds nor the hard drive space for TiVo-like qualities, and besides, if I really want that, I'll just get a TiVo. (Mom's got a TiVo. It's pretty damn cool.)

Thanks to all for your input. It was a big help.

 

[RobsTV]

WetWilly, HUH?????? I did what again?????
I never said a bad word about TV out on the 3 cards I've had. In fact, they were all great except for the STB card. My point was that every upgrade required replacing video card with another that also had TV out, and that is extra money that won't need to be spent if you buy a permanent solution. You also are not limited to 2 graphics cards as good choices (as you seem to think only 2 compaines make good TV cards), but can use any video card. How can you disagree with this?????

I also never said anything bad about GeForce2 MX with TV out, and in fact would state just the opposite. If you insist on getting a card with TV out built-in, (which makes no sense), the GeForce2 MX would be one of the best, all around, low cost solutions you can get.

Don't know what WetWilly was reading, but "It Wasn't Me"

 

[WetWilly]

RobsTV,

WetWilly, HUH?????? I did what again?????

I was referring to the thread where you were making comments on nVidia/Geforce 2D but you were using the best nVidia cards available and ignoring lots of Geforce cards that really don't have good 2D. As an aside, I had two friends with Geforce2 MXs (Creative) over and asked one of them to bring his card. They both also thought Geforce 2D was very good. Until they saw my V5500. Definite - not minor, not barely noticeable - definite difference in sharpness at 1024x768. The good 'ol nVidia ghosting on the desktop. We won't even discuss 1280x1024. And note the wink next to my initial comment.

as you seem to think only 2 compaines make good TV cards

OK ... tell me who else makes good consumer TV-out video cards with very good-to-excellent TV-out quality and comparable features for setting/tweaking the display that are equivalent to or better than Matrox and ATI. Links to reviews would be appreciated. I'm genuinely interested to know if anyone is using something besides Rockwell/Brooktree/Conexant and Chrontel.

... How can you disagree with this?

Easy. Two reasons. First, image quality. Look at two simplified schematics:

1) Signal generated by video card core -> RAMDAC/TVO conversion to TV-out signal on video card core -> TV-out connector
2) Signal generated by video card core -> RAMDAC -> VGA connector -> VGA-in passthrough on TV-out connector -> Conversion processing VGA-to-TV -> TV-out connector

Which one do you seriously think is going to give you a better display - #1 or #2? #1 is the basic schematic for Matrox's TV-out. #2 is the basic schematic for a scan converter. And like I said before, the Matrox G450 has TV-out integrated into the G450 core. And what about the VGA passthrough and all the additional cabling the VGA signal gets to go through between your video card and monitor with the scan converter? As we all know from Voodoo/Voodoo2 days, unless you have/had Canopus stuff there's the possibility of a degraded display on your monitor especially at higher resolutions - unless you want to keep disconnecting and reconnecting the scan converter.

Second, NinthKey had a specific use - DVD display. And I'd assume that a sharp display is an issue. So what are his options? Get a scan converter (see #2 above) or for the same cost, a Matrox G450 with DualHead functions including DVDMax which lets you display full screen DVDs on either a TV or monitor attached to the second head. Plus he upgrades both his regular 2D display and 3D capabilities from the Banshee, and gets the other DualHead stuff as well. For the specific uses he stated, the G450 is a no-brainer.

I also never said anything bad about GeForce2 MX with TV out, and in fact would state just the opposite.

This comment - I have determined that TV out on a video card is NOT the way to go. which is still in your post as I write this - is the comment I was referring to.

If you insist on getting a card with TV out built-in, (which makes no sense)

See above.

the GeForce2 MX would be one of the best, all around, low cost solutions you can get.

HUH? Solution? Look at the definition of solution - "the answer to or disposition of a problem." NinthKey's "problem" was a good, low-cost AGP 2x or 4x card to be used primarily for watching movies, and he's not a big gamer. Have you read ANY reviews of TV-out on the MX? Go over to Tom's Hardware roundup of TwinView MXs. Note the rather consistent comments about colors being off. Oh, and I'll give nVidia the benefit of the doubt and assume they've fixed the problem Tom found that "DVD playback was nearly useless when using TwinView." Specifically, Tom said about his attempts to do DVDMax-like stuff with TwinView:

I was hoping that with these three modes I would be able to do things like work on a spreadsheet for work while a DVD movie played on my second output or play my DVD movie on both outputs. I was denied in both cases.
...
I would also like to note that while TwinView had failed in my experiments, I had no problems installing a Matrox G400 and completing these tasks. Obviously the G400 isn't in the same class when it comes to 3D performance but its DualHead feature made me realize that TwinView has some growing up to do.

So you're saying that if I'm not a gamer and I want to watch movies on my TV that "one of the best, all around, low cost solutions you can get" is a card with poor TV-out color quality and great 3D benchmarks?