Need an alternate MB recommendation ($300 budget)

street carp

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Nov 1, 2007
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I am about to build a new system for stock trading. This is not my hobby or game I play on the side, it's all I've been doing for the past 4 years...my career. Needless to say I have to get something dependable as well as fast. I was set on the Abit IP35 Pro when, luckily, I began reading the "Core 2 & AM2 Motherboard Recommendations" thread. I came upon this:


abit IP35 Pro
* Notes: A drawback is its PCI Gb LAN that is about 20 to 40% slower than the PCI Express one.



Since my connection to the internet is vital I don't even consider that one now. I am considering the Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4, but would like to know how to determine the type of LAN this one has.


GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 (rev. 2.0)

* Specs: P35 + ICH9R, PCIe x16/PCIe x1/PCI: 2/3/2* supporting CrossFire, PATA/SATA/eSATA: 1/8/2 (eSATA sharing controller with SATA), RAID, Gb LAN, ALC889A supporting DTS Connect, coaxial & optical S/PDIF outs, IEEE 1394
* Price: ~$178



Right now I'm getting by OK with two separate 2.2Ghz Athlon XP systems while running Synergy to share the mouse/keyboard. So in a strange way I have a dual-core Athlon XP. But I'd rather have the security of using a new updated multi-core system while receiving quotes and placing orders. (Pretty sure I'll go with an 8800GT vc as well.)

I'd be OK with up to a $300 motherboard budget on this, so long as I have a real benefit. It doesn't take too much processing for stock trading, but with the programs I run a single Athlon XP and x850xt cannot handle it. I hang out at this trader site and some say a $5000 workstation is the only way to trade, and others say that's all a waste of money and do it with a Pentium 4. Me, I'm only concerned with results, buying the right thing, not overkill...having more money to trade with.

Can I assume the Gigabyte model's LAN is the PCI Express-type since in the aforementioned thread there is no disclaimer noted?

Or does anyone think I'd benefit from a server motherboard? Or any other MB recommendation?


Matt
 

SerpentRoyal

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May 20, 2007
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You'll never saturate the LAN. I have yet to see an ISP that can crack 60MB/sec. Unlike video, stock trading is not very bandwidth intensive. A 1.5M connection is more than adequate. If you still have reservation about the LAN, then go with Abit IP35-E for $71 AR. It's virtually the same as an IP35 Pro, minus a lot of bells and whistles. The LAN is on the PCI-E lane, so the theoretical bandwidth is the same as the Gigabyte.

Focus on large screen size and dual output monitor. Two 24 inchers would work well if you have desktop space. Better yet, go with two PCs and two monitors. A basic $40 7100 GPU will be able to drive any 24" monitor. I trade for fun if I'm not consulting and I still prefer the dual PC/monitor setup. Screen real estate is KING. Connect each PC to a router and you're set to go.
 

QuixoticOne

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
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Well I agree that it's ridiculous design to have GbE NICs on PCI in this age.
I noticed that comment the other day and made it a point to never buy one of those
based on that detail.

I also seem to have noticed (check this) that the IP35-E lower end unit may not have
the same deficiency in that respect, and it seemed (from the thread dedicated to it,
the IP35-E review thread) to be a decent low-cost P35 motherboard.

That being said I went with what seemed to be the best-of-breed at the time,
the P5K-Deluxe when I built my first fairly high end system about 4 months ago.
It's been FINE except for a few usual BIOS bugs that you can work around but
which are annoying, but I think EVERY motherboard has a few of those if you're really
a "power user" and expect to demand a lot of unusual configurations to work.

For my second mid-high end build I went with the lower cost P5K-E, there are only
minor differences between the P5K deluxe and P5K-E and I didn't feel any of them
would be relevant to me enough to spend $80 more on a 2nd deluxe model.
Mostly it lacks some of the extra cooling, but I run in a very good case with great
airflow and use high end heatsinks for the CPU and knew I couldn't and wouldn't want
to overclock to the point where the chipset would get too hot anyway.

Like you I want nearly perfect stability, reliability, and a modest overclock that's
basically "low hanging fruit", a "free" upgrade with no impact on stability.

So basically it's one of those two models that I'd suggest to you, I consider them
superior to the IP35-Pro based on their better GB-LAN design and some of the ASUS
features of the BIOS and their motherboard cooling / heatpipe capacities, the
multi-phase CPU power system, etc.

Sure there are even BETTER higher end motherboards in the X38 chipset series,
or even the P5K Premium, but I don't see any added stability or performance
advantages that are crucial in anything more expensive.

My main gripe about the P5K's below the Premium are the Mosfets on the rear
of the motherboard that get kind of hot, I'd have put them on top and cooled them
better. But it evidentally isn't a failure mode of the motherboard that these run
hot, and people into extreme overclocking with even higher end CPUs than I have
get them a LOT hotter / more heavily taxed than I do, so I feel safe though it
is a compromise.

If you want to look at the whole architecture of the PC in general it's full of half-baked
compromises like the whole case design -- horrible airflow / heat management,
difficult to assemble, difficult to service, collects dust, needs tools to work on it vs.
tool-less modular workstation / server type designs, etc.

Yes $50,000 workstations from SUN or IBM whatever are going to have great
SUPPORT / field service, they may have better mechanical designs, better
electrical engineering, better quality control, etc. then again many workstations ARE
now based on Intel processor type of PC architecture, and many DO take PC
add in cards etc. so some of those design advantages are going away not because
PCs are getting "better" but workstations are getting WORSE using commodity parts.

But if you choose decent quality components wisely, assemble them CAREFULLY
(i.e. actually USE the grounding wrist-strap everyone laughs at, etc.), and maintain
them reasonably (DUST it out monthly if it's not in a very dust-free environment,
control the humidity, keep pet hair out of it, don't smoke and get the whole thing
grimy, etc.), PCs can and will last 5-10 years without any more than perhaps
replacing one or two parts that may fail due to old age. Usually you can use them
until they're so "slow" or so incompatible with new desirable technologies that
you sell them / donate them in full working order just to upgrade.

I don't think the MTBF (reliability lifetime expectation) of mid-range workstations
are mugh better than the 5+ year relatively problem free lifespan of a carefully built PC.
Sure you may have a field service contract option for the workstation that will get
any and all of it swapped out within 1 business day on-site service, but that's about
the main advantage. Things WILL fail statistically ABOUT as often with either, the
question is what will be the timeliness of diagnosing/fixing the hardware or software
fault.

For the USER though the workstation type SUPPORT doesn't do much good in the
MOST cricital area -- YOUR OWN DATA because even if it's a cheap and quick
2 hour down-time deal to replace a dead hard disc, nobody but you can actually
re-load all your applications and data and customizations to get the repaired system
back to useful service with no data loss once you have a working machine + OS ready
for a restoration. That's the big down-time risk you MOST carefully have to mitigate.

Given that, I'd say that two or more offline hard discs like external USB / firewire
discs are pretty mandatory backup devices; store at least ONE offsite in a secure
fire-proof place like a safe-deposit box. Do full backups weekly, partial ones daily,
keep the last N months of backups in a rotation just in case. Obviously have a plan
to archive the last N years of financial data for tax/record purposes etc.
Have a system to "ghost" the main operating system and application data so that
if your drive dies you can be 100% back online without needing to reinstall the
OS or applications from a drive-imaged backup.
Use a 4-drive RAID for your main operating system and application disks so that
any TWO of those drives can fail or corrupt and you have ZERO downtime due to that,
just plug in replacement units when you're ready to shut down for the day and
you're back in business with redundancy. Keep 2 spare drives of the same models
FOR such replacement not IF but WHEN needed.

Other workstation advantages? Well software licensing/locking and availability often
forces people to use only certain SUN, HP, IBM, whatever models just because you
CAN'T get/run the apps. you need for PCs or MACs. Fortunately this is less commonly
the case now. The "node locking" of certain high end applications MAY be a problem
for you in terms of downtime though -- if your MAIN PC's motherboard or hard drive
dies, and your applications are serial number LOCKED to run on only those hardwares,
you BETTER know how to get that updated QUICKLY or you will be DOWN until you do.

If you can't tolerate even a few hours of downtime, there's another issue which is
the PC (or workstation!) itself. If it DOES blow up, flood, catch fire, GET STOLEN,
what then? The only real solution here is to have a second INDEPENDENT PC
all loaded up with your software READY TO GO needing only to synchronize with
your latest daily backup of your files to get it 100% up to speed for switch-over use.
Obviously you'd have to keep that unit in a different secure location for full security,
though just having a second PC in the office/home will at least give protection
against downtime due to a fault with the first one.

So yeah, I'd go with the PC, any mid-high-end enthusiast motherboard like P5K-E or
above should be FINE, no benefit of a server motherboard or "workstation" unless your
software NEEDs the extra RAM or multiple-CPU or vendor hardware / OS
available only in those.

Spend the money you save on backup stuff like external drives, network attached
storage, backup software, off-site backup / secure storage / off-site hosting / whatever
for data security issues.

Gb Ethernet -- actually it IS a big deal (TO ME) to be able to SATURATE the
LAN because when I do things like backups from PC to PC LOCALLY or use
certain distributed computing applications, I can and DO get 100MB/s traffic
rates over the GbEthernet. A good RAID will give you 50-100MB/s READ
performance, so that WILL use up GbE full bandwidth. So I agree it's wise
to NOT get the crippled solution IF you will have any similar PC-to-PC LAN
based file-server/backup-server/SAN type needs.


 

buddhatb

Senior member
Feb 18, 2007
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Originally posted by: street carp

Can I assume the Gigabyte model's LAN is the PCI Express-type since in the aforementioned thread there is no disclaimer noted?

I can confirm that the LAN on the Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4 is indeed a PCI-Express based controller.

Here's a chart showing the different speeds of the LAN controller on popular motherboards. The Gigabyte DS4 has a similar controller to that of the DQ6 (Realtek RTL-8111B).

http://images.anandtech.com/gr..._10020781024/15668.png
 

Heidfirst

Platinum Member
May 18, 2005
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Originally posted by: QuixoticOne
Well I agree that it's ridiculous design to have GbE NICs on PCI in this age.
I noticed that comment the other day and made it a point to never buy one of those
based on that detail.
There is a legitimate reason for it though & it's a deliberate design decison that abit made (which is why the cheaper IP35 mobos have PCI-E but not the Pro).

The P35 chipset has a limited no. (22) of PCI-E lanes.
If you use the main x16 & the second physical x16 (electrically @ x4) for a second gfx card or a RAID card you have used up 20.
The JMicron (or equiv) controller for IDE/eSATA etc. uses another which only leaves 1 outstanding.

Given that PCI gigabit is tens of times faster than domestic broadband (your modem won't be gigabit anyway so it'll make no difference to your internet access) & faster than a single HDD can provide they chose to use the last PCI-E lane to allow a further PCI-E slot to remain active (if you check the Asus, Gigabyte etc. you'll find that in Crossfire etc. the other PCI-E slots are disabled & also that their 2nd NICs are PCI too because they ran out of lanes) allowing for a WiFi, sound, TV card etc.
The only people who may notice a difference are those who regularly do large transfers across a gigabit network & where both sending & receiving systems are running a performance RAID setup (e.g. 0 not 1).
I imagine that's probably under 1% of the market ...



 

panfist

Senior member
Sep 4, 2007
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No offense but it sounds to me like you are pretty knowledgeable but not an expert when it comes to building a system.

First of all, it doesn't matter whether your ethernet card is on PCI or PCI Express. Both PCI and PCI Express are orders of magnitude faster than the internet connection supplied by your ISP. The only way you would need a PCI express ethernet card is if you are sharing massive amounts of data between computers on your local network. Your pipe to the outside world is nowhere near fast enough to dent the performance of a gigabit ethernet card. If you fire up task manager and monitor your network usage you'll see it's ridiculously low.

Also, this system is not for gaming but you need an 8800GT? That's ludicrous, ridiculous, crazy, stupid, retarded, whatever. If you want a RELIABLE machine for trading stocks don't put a high performance gaming part in it. For stock trading, get a video card with low power consumption and dual monitor output. You should spend no more than $70 here.

For the task of stock trading, you could probably get a regular old dell with a nice warranty for $600. The instant replacement warranty will be nice because if one component in your home-built system fails you are out all the time it takes to diagnose the problem, then another couple days to ship parts out.

Trading on a $5000 workstation is retarded unless you're so rich you could literally just retire anyway. You won't notice a difference between the $5000 workstation and a computer with a $100 processor, $100 worth of RAM, and whatever other crap you have around.

Seriously...computers break. Especially ones with hot, high performance parts like the 8800GT. Get something with a warranty where you can call them and get a new computer the next day.

Probably, you're not going to listen to this advice because you are a rich stock trader who wants an 8800GT in his computer regardless of how smart it is.
 

zerodeefex

Senior member
Jan 31, 2004
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No one mentioned it, but if you plan on using the audio controller on the board, I'd get the DS4. I have one in my HTPC and with DTS connect it actually passes 5.1 over optical to my receiver in games. Before this I had to use analog.
 

street carp

Member
Nov 1, 2007
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QuixoticOne, thanks for the detailed response. Since I'm still using computers I built 3 and 4 years ago from non-workstation parts I can vouch for their dependability. I was just making sure I wasn't missing out on some added abilities, speed, or stability. As far as backup goes, personally I like it, but my trading doesn't require it since I'm not one of those who compile years of chart and price quote data. (I'd like to have the option of RAID, but doubt if I'd even use it.) The program I use can quickly be downloaded from my broker so even if a HD/mb died I can grab my backup computer and be back to trading quickly.

Originally posted by: QuixoticOne
PCs can and will last 5-10 years without any more than perhaps
replacing one or two parts that may fail due to old age. Usually you can use them
until they're so "slow" or so incompatible with new desirable technologies that
you sell them / donate them in full working order just to upgrade.


And just so I'm getting this right... The LAN deficiency of the Abit IP35 Pro model is that it can only hit 735 Mbps while the PCI-E LANs hit 933+ Mbps. Well this is less of a problem now because my internet connection is what I'm concerned about. It's only 5 Mbps and 10 if I upgrade. As long as I'm not crippling my internet connection with PCI I'm less concerned about slower PC to PC transfer rates (although faster would be nice in those rare occasions.)

Thanks for all the replys; buddhatb, Heidfirst also. This forum is extremely informative and you people here are unbelievably helpful. Hopefully someday I can return the favor.

SerpentRoyal,
Right now I'm using non-ws 20" and 19" monitors. I'm considering getting a 24" ws and using it with the 20". However, I can get by with a single 17" believe it or not. Trading for me is better when all the info is compacted and I don't have to look all around for it. My computers are already routed together now while using Synergy. Awesome free product.

Matt
 

street carp

Member
Nov 1, 2007
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Originally posted by: panfist
First of all, it doesn't matter whether your ethernet card is on PCI or PCI Express. Both PCI and PCI Express are orders of magnitude faster than the internet connection supplied by your ISP. The only way you would need a PCI express ethernet card is if you are sharing massive amounts of data between computers on your local network. Your pipe to the outside world is nowhere near fast enough to dent the performance of a gigabit ethernet card. If you fire up task manager and monitor your network usage you'll see it's ridiculously low.

That's what I thought...just wanted it verified.

Originally posted by: panfist
Also, this system is not for gaming but you need an 8800GT? That's ludicrous, ridiculous, crazy, stupid, retarded, whatever. If you want a RELIABLE machine for trading stocks don't put a high performance gaming part in it. For stock trading, get a video card with low power consumption and dual monitor output. You should spend no more than $70 here.

Well I'm on AGP right now with an x850xt which was a pretty decent $250 card 3-4 years ago but may have some problem running the trading program (probably poorly written) that I use. (Another user at a trading forum I go to said his similar problem went away after upgrading to a x1950gt.) So I can't rule out possibly "overspending" on a video card just to be safe even though my problem is probably CPU related.

Originally posted by: panfist
Trading on a $5000 workstation is retarded unless you're so rich you could literally just retire anyway. You won't notice a difference between the $5000 workstation and a computer with a $100 processor, $100 worth of RAM, and whatever other crap you have around.

Although some traders like the expensive stuff or just like to brag they can afford it, I do know that the programs I trade with I can't be run successfully using 4 year old technology anymore and want to make sure my next build will be more than adequate without getting "retarded" about it.[/quote]

Originally posted by: panfist
Probably, you're not going to listen to this advice because you are a rich stock trader.
I wish. However, if I were I probably wouldn't have asked any questions in the first place. And chances are I am not a rich stock trader because I believe the failure rate is 80-90%.

Thanks for the reply,

Matt

 

hsfnewbie

Member
May 19, 2001
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"Well I'm on AGP right now with an x850xt which was a pretty decent $250 card 3-4 years ago but may have some problem running the trading program (probably poorly written) that I use. (Another user at a trading forum I go to said his similar problem went away after upgrading to a x1950gt.) So I can't rule out possibly "overspending" on a video card just to be safe even though my problem is probably CPU related. "

The above problems are attributed to your hard drive/CPU, not your video card unless it had crazy graphs showing up all over the place.
 

SerpentRoyal

Banned
May 20, 2007
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Per my previous post, $40 passively cooled 7100 will do the job. KISS when it comes to hardware. Simple hardware = low heat and high reliability.

I personally would built two rigs. There is no way two PCs will fail at the same time. $71 AR Abit IP35-E and $60 E2140. Overclock this baby to 2.4GHz at stock voltage. Save the $ for the monitors. You watch the screen when trading. That's why you want a big screen with quality mouse/keyboard.

I also have a compact entry screen. Free Quotetracker works well for displaying quotes,alerts, and charts. Program supports streaming quotes from Ameritrade, Etrade, Fidelity and many other outfits. It is possible to monitor hundreds of symbol with QT. Etrade Pro runs on Java so it can be a little slow. Active Trader Pro is very light.
 

street carp

Member
Nov 1, 2007
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Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
Per my previous post, $40 passively cooled 7100 will do the job. KISS when it comes to hardware. Simple hardware = low heat and high reliability.

I personally would built two rigs. There is no way two PCs will fail at the same time. $71 AR Abit IP35-E and $60 E2140. Overclock this baby to 2.4GHz at stock voltage. Save the $ for the monitors. You watch the screen when trading. That's why you want a big screen with quality mouse/keyboard.

I also have a compact entry screen. Free Quotetracker works well for displaying quotes,alerts, and charts. Program supports streaming quotes from Ameritrade, Etrade, Fidelity and many other outfits. It is possible to monitor hundreds of symbol with QT. Etrade Pro runs on Java so it can be a little slow. Active Trader Pro is very light.

Thanks for the advice, Serpent. Like I said before I am presently on 2 computers and may just replace one of them. I'm running Java charts on one and TotalView quotes/charts on the other. I'm already considering a budget-build like you recommend, but first I'm gonna see how long I can last with two Athlon XP's because they run smoothly now.

Thanks to all

Matt

Edit: BTW where did you find an E2140 for $60. That's gotta be OEM, right?
 

SerpentRoyal

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May 20, 2007
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No problem. I run streamers for 160 symbols plus Etrade Pro and Active Trader Pro simultaneously with Opteron 146 @ 2.97GHz. No delay or lag with this rig.
 

QuixoticOne

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
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As for GbEthernet bandwith, yeah, if you're
just using it for internet access and light local PC-to-PC
transfer, it doesn't matter how fast the NIC is as long
as it's faster than about 400 Mbit / second in the real world.

If you had multiple PCs with RAIDs or a RAID file server
you were using heavily you could conceivably get more
like 600Mbit or higher transfer rates on your LAN in which
case the GbE could be a (slight) limit on performance.

Without a FAST RAID, though, your hard disk will be WAY
slower than the GbE even the crippled one on the IP35-pro.
Your internet will be way way way slower than that.

I figured you might want an 8800GT or whatever high
end gfx. card for GPGPU financial analysis calculations
(pretty bleeding edge stuff) or driving multiple high-res.
24" monitors or something for 2D/3D graphing and
whatever.

If you're not using GPGPU to do financial number crunching
on the card, and you're not dealing with like 30" displays
and lots of 3D graphs, multiple monitors, etc., there's no
reason a modern $60 to $90 graphics card wouldn't be
FINE. 8500GT, 8600GT, X1950GT, HD2400PRO, whatever.

There will be some differences if you use the PC as an
HDTV / HD movie playback system, but if not, it's
all pretty irrelevant any of the better boards with DVI
above $50 in the nvidia 8x00 series or ATI x19xx or
x2xxx series should do the trick for driving up to a
24" LCD in 1920x1200 res. for 2D desktop over DVI.

 

SerpentRoyal

Banned
May 20, 2007
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Stock charts and graphs are 99.99% 2D. 7100 is plenty fast, even on a 24" LCD! Traders don't need financial analysis applications. You're a trader until you guess wrong, then you become a long-term investor or take a captital loss to offset a capital gain.
 

street carp

Member
Nov 1, 2007
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Originally posted by: QuixoticOne
.....

I figured you might want an 8800GT or whatever high
end gfx. card for GPGPU financial analysis calculations
(pretty bleeding edge stuff) or driving multiple high-res.
24" monitors or something for 2D/3D graphing and
whatever.
.....

The main reason I am considering spending a little more on the video card is that the problem is more evident on a 1600x1200 monitor vs. 1280x1024. There is probably a middle ground in there that I'll settle on...between a 7100 and an 8800GT. Like a 7900GS or 8600GT.

BTW I've already started buying parts for this even though I'm not officially building it yet. Ordered so far:

COOLER MASTER Centurion 532 RC-532-SKN1 $30 AR
Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) $50 AR

+ I already have the psu PCP&C 610W
 

Denithor

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2004
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If you are bound and determined to have a high-end video card, for crying out loud get an 8800GTS-320 like this one from XFX for $250 after MIR.

Reason: the dual slot cooler, which dumps the heat out the back of your box. Thus keeping the whole thing cooler and making life easier for the rest of your components (cooler components last longer and generally run with better stability).

Other than that, just get an e2160/e2180 and overclock to the highest point you can go without increasing voltage. Again, keep that temperature down and you will be much happier in the long run.

Finally, put in the maximum amount of ram supported by your OS (2x1GB + 2x512MB for XP or 4x1GB/2x2GB for Vista 64-bit) so you can run lots of pretty charts at the same time without getting slowed down.
 

street carp

Member
Nov 1, 2007
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Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
Stock charts and graphs are 99.99% 2D. 7100 is plenty fast, even on a 24" LCD! Traders don't need financial analysis applications. You're a trader until you guess wrong, then you become a long-term investor or take a captital loss to offset a capital gain.

I'm both. Completely a day trader with long-term trading aspirations. I want to buy BRK/B for my newly opened Roth IRA but only have $4000 in it so I can't even afford one share of that.:D

I'll probably settle on $100-150 video card. I have to at least be able to play some games at lower settings to take off some of the stress.:laugh:
 

QuixoticOne

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
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Sounds like a good setup.

The only thing I'd add would be to suggest considering whether any of your
applications could benefit from 4GB RAM vs. 2GB.

Considering the ridiculously low (vs. historical numbers) price of RAM in today's currently
oversupplied market glut, I'm stocking up on all that I think I can use for the next 2 years.

I think I saw 'Java' mentioned somewhere in the threat, I'm not sure if it was you or
the other guy trading. Anyway things like office apps, spreadsheets, JAVA programs,
.NET software, etc. can be a bit bloated. Not 2GB worth by themselves usually,
though add in a few web browsers and email program and you may well end up
swapping to disk occasionally. No big deal, usually clears up within 30 seconds,
but I like having it NEVER happen no matter what my workload is.

Then again I do heavy development stuff, so I probably use 10x the RAM most do.

I picked up a couple of these:
http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=T8UB2GC5&show=p

Though I wouldn't add them on top of 2x1gb existing modules.
I'm sure there are other 1GB sticks out there $40-$50 / pair with or without
different rebates (no double dipping on one rebate) if you do decide to add more.

Then again compared to your old system this one will be much better in so many
ways I'm sure you'll not be dissatisfied and I'm pretty sure DDR2 will remain
reasonably cheap until it starts getting phased out mid-2008 or whatever.