Need advice RE: WA State Traffic court, please.

[BatmanNate]

Thanks for stopping in. Before replying, please at the least read the thread and take into consideration that I am not trying to shirk responsibility for the following situation, I'm merely looking for advice from anyone who has been involved in a similar situation. Thanks, here's the scoop:

I was driving home from work this evening and was in a tad bit of a hurry as this is not my normally scheduled work day; I was tired and hungry to boot. I turned left at a large intersection and came to speed fairly quickly, leaving behind the honda on my left with no one in sight behind. Not until nearly reaching the next intersection and slowing down for a red light do headlights approach from the rear, and by the time I had nearly stopped the vehicle completely, they became discernable to myself as those of a Crown Victoria. In all honestly I had not been watching my speedometer at all, however while I admit that I most likely was exceeding the speed limit, it was not by more than 10 MPH. Anyhow, the police cruiser does not turn on his lights, the red light turns green, and I prudently accelerate my vehicle to slightly below the posted speed limit. At this point, at about a block from the intersection, the police officer turns on his lights.

I quickly signal, pull over into the nearest driveway, and secure the vehicle. Engine off, lights on, hands on wheel, music off. I wait, and the officer approaches doing his usual probe of the interior of the car with the flashlight, and I patiently wait. Upon being asked, I produce my license and proof of insurance and hand them over, politely answering all of the officers questions. No, I do not know how fast I was going. Yes, I own this car. Etc., etc. He shares that after seeing me turn left and hurriedly accelerate past the only other vehicle in sight (albeit a slow moving one), he turned right and followed after, speeding up to 70mph to catch me. (although it was not until nearly the second intersection roughly a mile away that the officer had matched my speed, then well below the posted limit) He ticketed me for 50+ in a 40, paced. Fair enough, he was nice about it. And although my modest vehice is in nice shape, it is not at all aesthetically modified, nor was I driving in any manner other than speeding slightly to attract his attention.

Now to the heart of the matter. Naturally I intend to contest the ticket as I was not clocked, nor possibly accurately paced, and I intend to have the officer subpeoned to the hearing in hopes that he will not show and I will be off the hook. I will arrived nicely dressed and well groomed, and will be as civil as ever, however I am in need of any further legal advice that I can be lent on the issue. In Washington state, is it required that you're clocked for a speed violation? If the officer does not show up to the hearing, will the judge dismiss the case? Are there any further tips for dealing with the courts that would help me out?

I understand that many of you will reply and tell me to suck it up, which I'm prepared to do that fairly enough. However, as I am not a rich man by any means, I would like to keep my insurance payments no higher than they are at the time being, and if there is a chance that I can do that I will. Thanks in advance for any advice!

 

[notfred]

Originally posted by: BatmanNate
Thanks for stopping in. Before replying, please at the least read the thread and take into consideration that I am not trying to shirk responsibility for the following situation, I'm merely looking for advice from anyone who has been involved in a similar situation. Thanks, here's the scoop:

I'll let you know what I think ,but keep in mind all my experiences are in other states than Washington (mostly California)

I was driving home from work this evening and was in a tad bit of a hurry as this is not my normally scheduled work day; I was tired and hungry to boot.

No one cares. Not me, or the cop, or the judge. Not trying to be an ass, but it's irrelevant information.

I turned left at a large intersection and came to speed fairly quickly, leaving behind the honda on my left with no one in sight behind. Not until nearly reaching the next intersection and slowing down for a red light do headlights approach from the rear, and by the time I had nearly stopped the vehicle completely, they became discernable to myself as those of a Crown Victoria.

Ok. There's no real point in speeding to a red light, but I'll continue reading...

In all honestly I had not been watching my speedometer at all, however while I admit that I most likely was exceeding the speed limit, it was not by more than 10 MPH.

One, neither the cop nor the judge nor I am going to feel sorry for you because you weren't paying attention to your instruments. Two, if you weren't looknig, how do you know how fast you weren't going?

Anyhow, the police cruiser does not turn on his lights, the red light turns green, and I prudently accelerate my vehicle to slightly below the posted speed limit. At this point, at about a block from the intersection, the police officer turns on his lights.

They don't pull people over in the middle of intersections, it impedes the flow of traffic.

I quickly signal, pull over into the nearest driveway, and secure the vehicle. Engine off, lights on, hands on wheel, music off. I wait, and the officer approaches doing his usual probe of the interior of the car with the flashlight, and I patiently wait. Upon being asked, I produce my license and proof of insurance and hand them over, politely answering all of the officers questions. No, I do not know how fast I was going. Yes, I own this car. Etc., etc. He shares that after seeing me turn left and hurriedly accelerate past the only other vehicle in sight (albeit a slow moving one), he turned right and followed after, speeding up to 70mph to catch me. (although it was not until nearly the second intersection roughly a mile away that the officer had matched my speed, then well below the posted limit) He ticketed me for 50+ in a 40, paced. Fair enough, he was nice about it. And although my modest vehice is in nice shape, it is not at all aesthetically modified, nor was I driving in any manner other than speeding slightly to attract his attention.

You did the right thing, he madea routine traffic stop, and no one cares if your car is modified.

Now to the heart of the matter. Naturally I intend to contest the ticket as I was not clocked, nor possibly accurately paced, and I intend to have the officer subpeoned to the hearing in hopes that he will not show and I will be off the hook. I will arrived nicely dressed and well groomed, and will be as civil as ever, however I am in need of any further legal advice that I can be lent on the issue. In Washington state, is it required that you're clocked for a speed violation? If the officer does not show up to the hearing, will the judge dismiss the case? Are there any further tips for dealing with the courts that would help me out?

This is based on my experiences in California: The officer ALWAYS shows up. They get time off work to go to court. The judge makes sure that if any defendants didn[t show up, the cops can leave before everything has started, so they can go back to patrolling the streets, becasue they are on duty.
The first thing the cop says when they put him on the stand is something along the lines of. "On [date and time] I used model X radar gun to determine that [defendant] was going [some speed]. I have been trained and certifeied within the past 12 months to use this radar gun, and here's the papers to prove it." There's a similar version that goes something like "I've been trained and certified to viusally estimate the speed of moving vehicles within 5mph, and here's the papers to prove it"

Showing up nicely dressed is a good idea, but the cop is still going to say exactly what I just wrote.

I understand that many of you will reply and tell me to suck it up, which I'm prepared to do that fairly enough. However, as I am not a rich man by any means, I would like to keep my insurance payments no higher than they are at the time being, and if there is a chance that I can do that I will. Thanks in advance for any advice!

Go to court, admit you were speeding, ask for a reduction in the fine, and request to take traffic school so that it doesn't show up on your record and therefore doesn't affect your insurance. You don't need to bother getting the cop to come.

 

[BatmanNate]

Originally posted by: notfred

Originally posted by: BatmanNate
Thanks for stopping in. Before replying, please at the least read the thread and take into consideration that I am not trying to shirk responsibility for the following situation, I'm merely looking for advice from anyone who has been involved in a similar situation. Thanks, here's the scoop:

I'll let you know what I think ,but keep in mind all my experiences are in other states than Washington (mostly California)

I was driving home from work this evening and was in a tad bit of a hurry as this is not my normally scheduled work day; I was tired and hungry to boot.

No one cares. Not me, or the cop, or the judge. Not trying to be an ass, but it's irrelevant information.

I turned left at a large intersection and came to speed fairly quickly, leaving behind the honda on my left with no one in sight behind. Not until nearly reaching the next intersection and slowing down for a red light do headlights approach from the rear, and by the time I had nearly stopped the vehicle completely, they became discernable to myself as those of a Crown Victoria.

Ok. There's no real point in speeding to a red light, but I'll continue reading...

In all honestly I had not been watching my speedometer at all, however while I admit that I most likely was exceeding the speed limit, it was not by more than 10 MPH.

One, neither the cop nor the judge nor I am going to feel sorry for you because you weren't paying attention to your instruments. Two, if you weren't looknig, how do you know how fast you weren't going?

Anyhow, the police cruiser does not turn on his lights, the red light turns green, and I prudently accelerate my vehicle to slightly below the posted speed limit. At this point, at about a block from the intersection, the police officer turns on his lights.

They don't pull people over in the middle of intersections, it impedes the flow of traffic.

I quickly signal, pull over into the nearest driveway, and secure the vehicle. Engine off, lights on, hands on wheel, music off. I wait, and the officer approaches doing his usual probe of the interior of the car with the flashlight, and I patiently wait. Upon being asked, I produce my license and proof of insurance and hand them over, politely answering all of the officers questions. No, I do not know how fast I was going. Yes, I own this car. Etc., etc. He shares that after seeing me turn left and hurriedly accelerate past the only other vehicle in sight (albeit a slow moving one), he turned right and followed after, speeding up to 70mph to catch me. (although it was not until nearly the second intersection roughly a mile away that the officer had matched my speed, then well below the posted limit) He ticketed me for 50+ in a 40, paced. Fair enough, he was nice about it. And although my modest vehice is in nice shape, it is not at all aesthetically modified, nor was I driving in any manner other than speeding slightly to attract his attention.

You did the right thing, he madea routine traffic stop, and no one cares if your car is modified.

Now to the heart of the matter. Naturally I intend to contest the ticket as I was not clocked, nor possibly accurately paced, and I intend to have the officer subpeoned to the hearing in hopes that he will not show and I will be off the hook. I will arrived nicely dressed and well groomed, and will be as civil as ever, however I am in need of any further legal advice that I can be lent on the issue. In Washington state, is it required that you're clocked for a speed violation? If the officer does not show up to the hearing, will the judge dismiss the case? Are there any further tips for dealing with the courts that would help me out?

This is based on my experiences in California: The officer ALWAYS shows up. They get time off work to go to court. The judge makes sure that if any defendants didn[t show up, the cops can leave before everything has started, so they can go back to patrolling the streets, becasue they are on duty.
The first thing the cop says when they put him on the stand is something along the lines of. "On [date and time] I used model X radar gun to determine that [defendant] was going [some speed]. I have been trained and certifeied within the past 12 months to use this radar gun, and here's the papers to prove it." There's a similar version that goes something like "I've been trained and certified to viusally estimate the speed of moving vehicles within 5mph, and here's the papers to prove it"

Showing up nicely dressed is a good idea, but the cop is still going to say exactly what I just wrote.

I understand that many of you will reply and tell me to suck it up, which I'm prepared to do that fairly enough. However, as I am not a rich man by any means, I would like to keep my insurance payments no higher than they are at the time being, and if there is a chance that I can do that I will. Thanks in advance for any advice!

Go to court, admit you were speeding, ask for a reduction in the fine, and request to take traffic school so that it doesn't show up on your record and therefore doesn't affect your insurance. You don't need to bother getting the cop to come.

Thanks for the advice. I used to live in CA and I'm aware that there are quite a few differences in the process in WA State, or that was the impression I got at any rate. I understand that most of the information I posted was irrelevant to the questions being asked, however I know that it would be asked by patrons of this thread for whatever reason and I figured that I would save them the trouble. I am not interested in mitigation because the fine is a mere $86 and not worth taking a day off of work for; I wish to contest because from what I have heard from all of my previous roomates who have been through the process, the officers very rarely shows up. Perhaps it is not the paid vacation that it is in CA here. This was not a short distance between the two lights, at least one mile, so I was not speeding up just to make the light or anything, I just wasn't paying attention to the instrument cluster, however I know what 40 mph feels like as opposed to 60, and I definately wasn't doing 60. (although that's not exuse obviously) Also, the fact that he didn't have his lights on at all when he was "pacing" me prior and waited an entire block after the intersection instead of immediately where there were plenty of places to pull over lead me to believe that he had not accuretely paced me and was seeing if I would speed again so he could. I mentioned the bit about the car not be aesthetically modified because that may have put some prejudice in the situation.

 

[notfred]

Not to be a downer, but your chances of winning a case based on the fact that you don't think he had enough time to pace you accurately is right about 0%. You're best bet is traffic school, however that's done in Washington.

 

[BatmanNate]

Originally posted by: notfred
Not to be a downer, but your chances of winning a case based on the fact that you don't think he had enough time to pace you accurately is right about 0%. You're best bet is traffic school, however that's done in Washington.

You're right, I was hoping for the officer not to show up. Traffic school is a good idea, but I can't seem to find much info on it. I'll keep looking.

 

[notfred]

Originally posted by: BatmanNate

Originally posted by: notfred
Not to be a downer, but your chances of winning a case based on the fact that you don't think he had enough time to pace you accurately is right about 0%. You're best bet is traffic school, however that's done in Washington.

You're right, I was hoping for the officer not to show up. Traffic school is a good idea, but I can't seem to find much info on it. I'll keep looking.

In California, you just have to show up in court and request it, and they'll give it to you as long as you haven't taken it in the past 18 months. Then you pay $20 and fill out a little quiz at an online traffic school in 15 minutes, and your tiocket stays off your record

I think I've been pulled over about.... hmm... at LEAST 13 times. I've gotten 5 tickets that I can remember.

 

[Insane3D]

While I agree you will likely not avoid a ticket going to court, I do believe there is a minimum distance that the officer has to be matching your speed for pacing to be applied. In my state of NH, I believe it is at least three miles. The three miles can not include any catching up time, the officer must be following you at the same speed for at least three miles. If he was pacing you, but he did not write down a specific speed, than it is likely he did not pace you long enough. I don't believe there is any relevance to how fast he went to "catch up to you" in this case. He may have gone 70mph to catch up to you, but that does not mean he had to go that fast to catch you. He could have gone 110 MPH to catch up to you, but it does not mean that he needed to drive that fast to accomplish that goal.

I agree with notfred that you will always be at a disadvantage to the officer in a traffic case, but do a little research on the traffic laws in your state, specifically speed determining methods, and see if there is anything you can use. The cop may have known he was a bit light on the requirements for pacing, but they probably assume most people won't go through the effort of researching the laws.

Anyways...good luck.

 

[BatmanNate]

Insane3d, that's a good idea. I can prove the distance because he wrote down where he picked me up and where he wrote the ticket, which is nowhere near 3 miles, however the laws in my state may differ. I'll check it out.

 

[Wolfsraider]

i am from south seattle

i got a ticket er a few tickets right after moving here

the first set 1300.00 the cop didnt show case dismissed(lawyer hired) no tags no insurance no d/l and a traffic violation

the second was in mt vernon i snail mailed them i would contest they reduced the fine and violation speeding

the third i went to court and beat(driving in the wrong lane) tacoma


my girl pleaded her speeding ticket for reduced fine and violation

my daughter unbuckled to get moms wallet that was in the center console and was rebuckling when the officer walked up contested in court for reduced fine

do your research on the laws and if all else fails take the probation and reduced fines but be warned if you get another ticket in thr probation period you will be responsible for the full original fines

as far as the officer not showing thats very rare i got lucky the cop had overtime prior to court and overslept he walked in as i walked out

i am a passenger now but was a route driver

 

[slikmunks]

if you were in cali, i'd say take a look at ticketassassin.com

 

[BatmanNate]

Originally posted by: Wolfsraider
i am from south seattle

i got a ticket er a few tickets right after moving here

the first set 1300.00 the cop didnt show case dismissed(lawyer hired) no tags no insurance no d/l and a traffic violation

the second was in mt vernon i snail mailed them i would contest they reduced the fine and violation speeding

the third i went to court and beat(driving in the wrong lane) tacoma


my girl pleaded her speeding ticket for reduced fine and violation

my daughter unbuckled to get moms wallet that was in the center console and was rebuckling when the officer walked up contested in court for reduced fine

do your research on the laws and if all else fails take the probation and reduced fines but be warned if you get another ticket in thr probation period you will be responsible for the full original fines

as far as the officer not showing thats very rare i got lucky the cop had overtime prior to court and overslept he walked in as i walked out

i am a passenger now but was a route driver

Lots of good ideas in there...a few questions for you: where can I seek probation or traffic school, do I set up a hearing to contest or mitigate, or do I go about some other means? Also, where is a good resource for researching these laws? Thanks again.

 

[Vic]

In WA state, you must subpeona the officer to show up in court. If you don't, he doesn't have to show up and the judge can and will use his sworn affidavit in place of his testimony.
You can be found guilty even though you were not accurately paced or clocked, but you do stand a better chance of successfully fighting the ticket. The important part to remember here is that the officer is going to use the fact that he had to speed up to 70 in order to catch you. That's going to be his key argument against you. Lucky for you, that's easy to beat even though no one ever seems to realize it or use it.
Why? Let's say you were doing 40 in that 40 (for example). If he pulled out a half-mile behind you (for example), how long would it take for him to catch you if he also did 40? You got it, he would never catch you. So now what you have to do in court is trap the officer into mathematical reality in order to demonstrate to the judge that you were in fact doing the speed limit and that the officer had to speed up to 70 simply because you had a head-start.
Now here is where you are screwed. When the officer asked if you knew how fast you were going, you answered "I don't know." That in and of itself is enough for you to lose this. All drivers are required to know their speed at all times. The fact that you did not know makes it possible for the officer's eyewitness testimony, without any other evidence, to serve as preponderence of evidence and for you to be found guilty.
I cannot stress this enough, when an officer pulls you over and asks the famous question, if you MUST answer (and you actually don't have to answer as the officer is, in effect, requiring you to testify against yourself) you always answer with the posted speed limit for the area, ALWAYS.
Good luck though.