Need advice on speakers

[cycleman77]

When it comes to real speakers I don't know much at all. I have heard from several people at work that I should stay away from Sony speakers.
The only 'evidence' they have to back that up is that they "heard other people say they are not so good". Any truth to that?

I am not looking at systems in a box. I have not heard any at CC or BB to convince me that they are decent setups.

(*Note: I have not actually had the chance to hear the components below in person, I picked them out based on consumer reviews and spec's)
I am fairly confident that I will get an Onkyo TX-SR605. It seems reasonably priced for the features that it has.

Front left and right: Pioneer S-HF41-LR
Center: Pioneer S-HF11C
Rear left and right: Pioneer S-HF21-LR
Subwoofer: Onkyo SKW-204


I am only looking at 5.1 at the moment. I don't think that 6.1 or even 7.1 is worth it (for me anyways).
Room size is 19'x12'x7.5' (LxWxH). I rent a duplex, so I would like something powerful and sounds nice, but I can't have it blowing my socks off.
(Although it may be nice just knowing it can )

As far as the general setup goes, my rationale was this: (please feel free to correct anything that is incorrect on my part)
The front left and right speakers are the primary sound speakers so I thought to get 3-ways for a wider range of sound.
The rear speakers are for ambient and "secondary" sounds, so 2-ways would do.
I wanted a decent sub without going too large for the room.
I think I remember reading somewhere that the front center speaker was for dialog and something else, but I don't remember. Either way, my only reasoning behind my choice above is that it matched the series the other speakers came from.

Another point that I heard/read from several sources: it is best to get speakers from the same company/series. Truth to this as well?

The speakers I can pick up for a little over $400, total. Receiver was $420'ish. Definitely within my budget.
Wanted to keep it under $1000, but can go up to $1500 if I can convince myself it is worth it. I don't want something cheap. I would like this to last for several years. If I had to pick a number, at least 5. Does that sound reasonable?

Initially, I was looking at a Polk setup. I don't remember the model numbers, but they were floor standing speakers, not bookshelf speakers like the Pioneers. Think they were $190 or so. I want to say 50BK's, but don't hold me to it. The price difference swayed me towards the Pioneers.

I definitely plan on going to stores to hear more setups. I'm just getting an idea of what I want, what I'm looking for, and how much I'm may end up spending.

Ideas/opinions/suggestions?

Thanks in advance

 

[cycleman77]

No one has had any experience with Pioneer speakers in home entertainment?

Well, does anyone have any suggestions to other brands/models to look at?

 

[Deudalus]

Umm, at that price range I would seriously consider used speakers or bookshelves from an online retailer.

Pioneer does not make good spakers.
Sony does not make good speakers.
Onkyo does not make good speakers.
Bose is horrible speakers as well.

Basically the rule of thumb which I find to be 1000% accurate is if the company makes receivers they do not make good speakers.

So that means dont buy speakers from Yamaha, Sony, Pioneer, Denon, Harmon Kardon, etc.

I would check out:

Axoim at www.axiomaudio.com
Rockets/Onix at www.av123.com
Paradigm at www.paradigm.com
PSB at www.psbspeakers.com

 

[Deudalus]

As far as the general setup goes, my rationale was this: (please feel free to correct anything that is incorrect on my part)
The front left and right speakers are the primary sound speakers so I thought to get 3-ways for a wider range of sound.

Not really. It is all speaker quality. I have some 1,400 dollar bookshelf 2 ways that would blow the socks off of a helluvalot of 3 way towers. In general you are right that 3 way is better and they are the primary sound points of your system, but quality before size is always the main thing.

The rear speakers are for ambient and "secondary" sounds, so 2-ways would do.

This is correct but understand that if you listen to concert DVD's then they will often times be coded in 5.1 which means these would be better if they sound ok. 2-way is fine, just make sure they sound decent.

I wanted a decent sub without going too large for the room.

No such thing as too much sub, but yah you dont need a gigantic one. But even at your size of room you could easily spend 3,000 or more on a very large and high quality sub and not have "too much" per se. But then again there are plenty of subs in the 400 dollar range that I'm sure you'd be happy with.

I think I remember reading somewhere that the front center speaker was for dialog and something else, but I don't remember. Either way, my only reasoning behind my choice above is that it matched the series the other speakers came from.

Matching the front 3 is important. Matching the rears isnt as big of a deal. You won't notice if those dont match the fronts. You will notice if the front 3 aren't tonally very, very similar.

Another point that I heard/read from several sources: it is best to get speakers from the same company/series. Truth to this as well?

Just the front 3.

 

[cycleman77]

Thanks for the info Deudalus

I checked out those four brands you suggested. If I did anything at that level, it would have to be a project that I pieced together over time.

There are a few places around me that carry a couple of those brands. Didn't see anywhere that carried Axiom though. I'll have to ask around a bit more.

Just out of curiousty, how did you come about that rule of thumb?
Wouldn't a company that makes receivers also make speakers that best suit their receivers?

Would I need to get a higher end receiver to best suit the speakers from Axiom/PSB/Paradigm/Rockets? I wouldn't want to cheap-out on the receiver only to have average sound coming out of good speakers.

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: cycleman77
Thanks for the info Deudalus

I checked out those four brands you suggested. If I did anything at that level, it would have to be a project that I pieced together over time.

There are a few places around me that carry a couple of those brands. Didn't see anywhere that carried Axiom though. I'll have to ask around a bit more.

Just out of curiousty, how did you come about that rule of thumb?
Wouldn't a company that makes receivers also make speakers that best suit their receivers?

Would I need to get a higher end receiver to best suit the speakers from Axiom/PSB/Paradigm/Rockets? I wouldn't want to cheap-out on the receiver only to have average sound coming out of good speakers.

Umm, you really wouldn't have to to be honest with ya.

I would very, very seriously consider picking up used gear from one of the forums on those websites or from www.avsforum.com or www.audioholics.com

There are some very reputable traders on there that sell very high quality goods for a very good discount. I just sold some 1500 dollar bookshelves for 775 for example....

Used speakers don't really go bad especially if they are only a couple of years old and have been treated well.

I found a pair of great Rocket Bookshelves and a Littlefoot Center Channel in the classified section on their forum yesterday for 500 shipped. All you'd need is surrounds and a sub at that point.


You could also check into B-stock stuff that they sell which 90% of the time has a small smudge or scratch on a piece of the speaker that you'll never see for a 25% or greater discount.


The receiver you purchased would be fine by the way. Most of those speakers I listed are all very efficient and it wouldn't take much to drive them. Now if you decided to get some cheaper towers and drive them at ear bleeding levels you'd get some clipping due to not enough power and have issues.

But for some quality bookshelves you'd be fine.


Sub:
VTF-1 Subwoofer
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1.html
400 dollars

Speakers:
http://www.av123.com/products_...tion=speakers&brand=55

2 pair x-sls Tower
640 dollars

1 x-cs Center
140 dollars


I'd put the towers all the way around the room because by the time you get a stand for the bookshelves you've basically paid for the tower anyways. So basically youd have towers from front mains and surrounds and the center channel for all under 1300 or so.


But then here's a link to a guy selling 750 signature rockets, a pair of 550 MKII bookshelves, and an RSC 200 Bigfoot with risers for all of them for the same price........

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=23750


Here is a link to all that stuff I listed being sold online though in pristine condition for 625 shipped though.......

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=23841

Here's a set of Rocket towers and Center Channel for sale for 1200:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=894029


The point is you get a 5 year warranty on all this stuff typically and it ALWAYS transfers to new owners. So basically there is little to no worry on any of it. The only nailbiter is shipping this stuff but as long as you insure it or make sure its packed well youll be fine.

If you buy all new stuff you'll pay new prices and get far, far inferior sound on your budget.


Grant


PS: Buy all your cables from www.monoprice.com DO NOT buy any cables from Best Buy, Circuit City, or basically anywhere else.

All the cables are the same and cables from monoprice are about 20% of the cost of cables in any store.

 

[Deudalus]

Actually, if you look at av123's B-Stock stuff right now you'll see refernce .5's for 75 bucks a piece.

That is probably the best deal on any speaker, anywhere right now.

Those things sound fantastic and at 75 bucks a piece you could just throw 5 of those in a 5.1 setup and get a fantastic subwoofer with the remaining money and have a very, very, very, very good sounding system for damn cheap.

 

[Deudalus]

Just out of curiousty, how did you come about that rule of thumb?
Wouldn't a company that makes receivers also make speakers that best suit their receivers?

No not really, there is a ton of money, effort, and research that goes into creating a perfect speaker and for the most part a receiver is just a means for decoding digital information and applying enough power to it to drive a speaker.

Now granted some receivers are better and will sound different than others, but thats the basics.


Also, I've listening to everything from Sony and Bose crap at Best Buy to Magnepans, Wilson Audio 20,000 per pair speakers, Von Schweikerts, Focal/JM Labs, Paradigm Signatures, Monitor Audio Golds, and on down the line for the ultra high end stuff and its just the way it is really.

When a company puts all their eggs in one basket, they make sure its a damn good basket I guess is one way of putting it. Sony, Pioneer, and all those other companies focus on electronics and if they manage to sell some speakers on the side thats great. But they make their money selling receivers, TV's, camcorders, dvd players, and so on down the list of electronics.


Onix/Rocket, Paradigm, Axiom, PSB, pretty much all they make it speakers (maybe the occasional amplifier or cd player but thats about the extent of it) and they take their speakers far, far, far, more seriously than a multi-billion dollar company like Sony who is worried about their PS3, plasma, and LCD TV's.

 

[Rubycon]

Looking at the specs of the Pioneer speakers they won't reach "reference level" for HT:

# Sensitivity: 84 dB
# Maximum power: 160 Watts

That yields 106dB at the max power! Folks that work in Geek Squad customer service will tell you their happy customers often communicate their problems at levels higher than that.

Seriously, look for sensitivity of at least 90dB.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: Rubycon
Looking at the specs of the Pioneer speakers they won't reach "reference level" for HT:

# Sensitivity: 84 dB
# Maximum power: 160 Watts

That yields 106dB at the max power! Folks that work in Geek Squad customer service will tell you their happy customers often communicate their problems at levels higher than that.

Seriously, look for sensitivity of at least 90dB.

90db sensitivity is fairly rare. 86-88db efficient speakers with a good 100WPC receiver will result in 106-108db, which is very, very, very loud.

Heck, 80db at 20 watts is enough power if the speakers are used nearfield.


Anyway, here's my two cents.

Speakers: Radiient Elara 5.1 set - $350
http://www.radiient.com/Elara-...System?sc=2&category=6
This is the 5.1 version of the Radiient Europa speakers. The Radiient Europas are also sold stripped-down by Best Buy as the well-rated Insignia B-2111s. These are good speakers, and cheap, too!

Subwoofer: Dayton Sub120 - $150
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe...fm?&Partnumber=300-635
Dayton makes decent - and inexpensive - speakers. This is the biggest sub in their low-budget range. For $150, you're not going to get anything better.

Receiver: Yamaha HTR-5940 - $150
http://www.radioshack.com/prod....jsp?productId=2428706
Yamaha makes good HT stuff. This is not the most expensive receiver, but when released it was considered a "good value for the money" - and that was for $320!

This setup costs very little, and should perform very well.

 

[cycleman77]

Originally posted by: Deudalus
PS: Buy all your cables from www.monoprice.com DO NOT buy any cables from Best Buy, Circuit City, or basically anywhere else.

All the cables are the same and cables from monoprice are about 20% of the cost of cables in any store.

No worries. I never buy cables at those places.

Originally posted by: Deudalus
When a company puts all their eggs in one basket, they make sure its a damn good basket I guess is one way of putting it.

That makes sense.

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
Receiver: Yamaha HTR-5940 - $150
http://www.radioshack.com/prod....jsp?productId=2428706
Yamaha makes good HT stuff. This is not the most expensive receiver, but when released it was considered a "good value for the money" - and that was for $320!

I am also planning on connecting my video devices through the receiver. HDMI I/O is a must.
I like the looks and price of that Dayton sub you linked


Sounds like I definitely have a lot more planning/shopping to do before I buy anything.
Have famliy visiting for Labor Day weekend. Think I might be able to get away with dragging them to some shops to check out setups

Thanks for the info.
I'll post back after I get a chance to hear those speakers.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: cycleman77

Originally posted by: Deudalus
PS: Buy all your cables from www.monoprice.com DO NOT buy any cables from Best Buy, Circuit City, or basically anywhere else.

All the cables are the same and cables from monoprice are about 20% of the cost of cables in any store.

No worries. I never buy cables at those places.

Originally posted by: Deudalus
When a company puts all their eggs in one basket, they make sure its a damn good basket I guess is one way of putting it.

That makes sense.

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
Receiver: Yamaha HTR-5940 - $150
http://www.radioshack.com/prod....jsp?productId=2428706
Yamaha makes good HT stuff. This is not the most expensive receiver, but when released it was considered a "good value for the money" - and that was for $320!

I am also planning on connecting my video devices through the receiver. HDMI I/O is a must.
I like the looks and price of that Dayton sub you linked


Sounds like I definitely have a lot more planning/shopping to do before I buy anything.
Have famliy visiting for Labor Day weekend. Think I might be able to get away with dragging them to some shops to check out setups

Thanks for the info.
I'll post back after I get a chance to hear those speakers.

The Radiients can't be found in stores, sadly. Mail-order only. I can, however, assure you that they're very, very good.

A Yamaha with HDMI can be had for $200 or so.

 

[cycleman77]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
The Radiients can't be found in stores, sadly. Mail-order only. I can, however, assure you that they're very, very good.

A Yamaha with HDMI can be had for $200 or so.

I noticed this with a couple speaker brands. Inconvenient, but at least they do offer the 30-day in home trial.

I did not find any Yamaha receivers near that price range with HDMI. They do state that they support HD through component input, but the device itself does not have HDMI ports on it. If I am missing something, please feel free to link.


On another note, I did come across another question.

What is the max frequency I should be looking for in a speaker?
Many of the ones that caught my eye were 20KHz.
I got into a conversation with someone about building a home theater and they brought up the argument that even if you can't hear sounds that high (20KHz), if you have multiple high frequencies, some of them will create destructive interference and bring those frequencies down into the range where you can here them.
(if there is a 25KHz signal and a 23KHz signal, the actual sound that comes out will be 2KHz)
I took some signal processing classes in college, so I know the concept, but I don't remember dealing with audible frequencies in those classes; primarily dealt with transmission frequencies.
In short, will there be a significant (noticeable) difference in a home theater environment between speakers with a 20KHz ceiling and speakers with a higher ceiling?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Ratings of upper frequency response limits shouldn't be how you should shop for speakers. It's going to make very little difference what's going on above 20kHz in the big scheme of things, and I wouldn't put much faith in the ratings manufacturers are putting on their speakers either, especially budget ones. Almost everything out there is going to give 20kHz as the upper limit. A lot of source material isn't even going to have any information much above 20kHz to be played back.

There are a lot more important things to speakers than the upper frequency extension. I'm going to send you a PM with some basics that you should keep in mind when you're planning out your system.

 

[Deudalus]

I noticed this with a couple speaker brands. Inconvenient, but at least they do offer the 30-day in home trial.

I did not find any Yamaha receivers near that price range with HDMI. They do state that they support HD through component input, but the device itself does not have HDMI ports on it. If I am missing something, please feel free to link.

You don't have to pass the HDMI through your receiver you know.....

Assuming you have a TV with multiple HDMI inputs you can run an HDMI cable for video straight to your TV from your cable box/DVD player and then run analog, toslink, or optical audio from your cable box/DVD player to your receiver for sound.


Pretty much every decent DVD player now adays will upconvert to 1080i or 1080p and alot of TV's will do it too, you don't have to rely on your receiver to do it and sometimes its better if it doesn't do it actually.

 

[cycleman77]

I know I don't have to put the video through the receiver.
When I was shopping for the TV, I had read in multiple places that generally, plasmas can lose sync with video when switching video inputs. I picked up a 42" Panasonic plasma (TH42PX75U) several weeks ago. So originally I had planned on getting a receiver that had HDMI I/O for that reason. Since then, I haven't noticed video losing sync on my set at all when switching inputs. So now wanting HDMI I/O on the receiver is just a 'personal preference' I guess.

I did pick up a new dvd player to accompany the dvd. It does upconvert very well in my opinion. I have been impressed how my normal dvds look on the hd screen.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: Deudalus
550 MKII bookshelves

Just wanted to point out that 550s aren't exactly bookshelf speakers

They're the smaller of the two pairs

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: Deudalus
550 MKII bookshelves

Just wanted to point out that 550s aren't exactly bookshelf speakers

They're the smaller of the two pairs

Yah, you are right I was thinking about the 250s heh.

http://www.av123.com/products_...n=speakers&product=2.1

 

[cheesehead]

If you're worried about the Radiient Europa/Helios (which are TINY), try listening to the Best Buy NSB-2111s. These are stripped-down Europa/Helios speakers, minus the supertweeter and with an inferior crossover. Even on the crappy store amp, they'll still sound quite good.

Also, they're the cheapest speakers by a few hundred bucks.

 

[Project86]

Lost of good advice here so far. I'll add a few things that I know:

I've owned both the Insignias and the Radiient Europas. There is no audible difference between them. The supertweeter looks cool, but I can't hear it doing anything. The crossovers are not upgraded, just ever so slightly tweeked to allow for the supertweeter. In my opinion the Insignias actually look better, because the Radiients wood veneer looks a bit cheap, and the black hides it well on the Insignias. But now that they are about the same price, it doesn't matter.

Another set to consider is the Calypso from Radiient. They are down to $199 shipped. Nice tower fronts, small rears, and decent center. I heard them when it was originally $499 for the set, and thought it was a very good deal. At $200 you can't lose. The center channel is the weakest link but it is not too bad, and the towers are excellent for music. Add an Onix Xsub for $200 and you have a great setup for under $500 after tax/shipping.

Do you plan on watching a lot of SD content, like non HD Dish or DirecTV? What about HD-DVD or Bluray? If the answer is no, then that Onkyo 605 is overkill for you. It has a nice Faroudja deinterlacer which would work great with regular Dish over s-video, converting to 480P and then sending out to your TV over HDMI. But if you plan on getting HD service soon then that is a waste. Also you won't need all the new encoders it has (like TrueHD, DD plus, DTS Master) unless you plan on getting an HD-DVD or Bluray player. The Onkyo 505 is available for $240 refurb from shoponkyo.com and should be great if you don't need the above features. It will even switch your HDMI for you. Or the JVC 401/402/411/412 series is also available for cheap, and is excellent.

 

[marincounty]

I usually build my own speakers, however there are many companies making fine inexpensive speakers. JBL, Polk, PSB, Paradigm and others make good speakers for the money. Their use of mass production usually means they are a better value than esoteric speaker companies.
Don't look for lots of drivers in one box, better to have fewer high-quality drivers than lots of crappy ones.
If you are handy with tools and determined, you can build awesome speakers to your liking with kits from Madisound and Parts Express, among others.
I like Yamaha receivers if you must, but I guess Onkyo is OK too.
Edit: Oh yeah, Denon makes nice receivers too.

 

[quanb]

Just a thought, you might want to check out the KEF 2005.2 subsat speaker
system. Its a 5.1 speaker system with 5 identical aluminum egg shaped
speakers, and one sealed 10inch 250 watt subwoofer. Its on close out at
circuit city for $500.00. The speakers are a coaxial
design consisting of a .75 inch tweeter, and 4 inch woofer. The tweeter is
located within the center of the woofer. This makes for a very compact
design, its egg shaped, and clad in aluminum. Theres also a built in aluminum
bracket which doubles as either a stand for the speaker, or can be rotated
to be used as rotatable wall bracket for wall mounting. The satellites are
designed are spec'd at 80hz to over 27khz. The powered subwoofer will go down to 30HZ. This system really sounds
great especially on movie soundtracks and multichannel music dvd's. The room
my friend had it in was around 12 x 15 and it easily filled that size space.

 

[taterworks]

I'm personally a fan of Definitive Tech's ProCinema series speakers. You can get them locally, if you have a Best Buy with a Magnolia home theater shop inside. Try the ProCinema 600 system. Their design is tasteful -- I've always found the KEF eggs too 'weird'-looking for me. You ought to be able to do a ProCinema 600 for $799 -- way less than $1500. If you want a larger sub, the ProCinema 1000 series system will stretch your budget somewhat more, but step you up to a sub with a 10" driver. The subs feature a design with a down-firing passive radiator, to match the passive radiator design of the satellite speakers.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: cycleman77

Initially, I was looking at a Polk setup. I don't remember the model numbers, but they were floor standing speakers, not bookshelf speakers like the Pioneers. Think they were $190 or so. I want to say 50BK's, but don't hold me to it. The price difference swayed me towards the Pioneers.

Frys.com has a great sale on Polk R50's, R300's, & R150's, combine that with a Polk CS1 or CSR for a good 5.0 setup, then all you need is a quality sub.

 

[cycleman77]

Ugh.
A couple things have come up and this HT project is going to have to be put on the back burner for now.

Would like to atleast pick up a couple towers for Christmas. I am leaning back towards the Polk speakers I was looking at in the beginning. I did start to seriously consider a few models from the online sites several people had mentioned, but I had not taken the shipping costs of floorstanding speakers into consideration. Ouch!

Also, I ran into another make; Fluance. Anyone hear of them? Reviews sound positive and seem relativley inexpensive.

Anyways, thanks for all the input. I really appreciate it.