Need a PS3 HDD that uses 512kb Sectors

[vailr]

We're talking about the sector size of the drive, not the allocation unit on the filesystem.

Yes: "sector size" is exactly what I was referring to.
And yes: selectable via "low level format".

As stated previously, there do exist certain sector size limits, according to what the partition size is set for.

Do you have any documentation reference that sector size is (necessarily) "locked in", via the hard drive's firmware?

 

[Googer]

Yes: "sector size" is exactly what I was referring to.
And yes: selectable via "low level format".

As stated previously, there do exist certain sector size limits, according to what the partition size is set for.

Do you have any documentation reference that sector size is (necessarily) "locked in", via the hard drive's firmware?

I dont have a 4k drive. So I am not certain that a 4K low level format is possible. But in the past each manufacturer has provided a utility to access the firmware and change various settings. A few makers have had an option in the drives firmware to perform a low level format. I haven't used such a utility since SATA drives became the norm. But I do know one of the easiest places to get a copy is on the Ultimate Boot CD.

Mr Fenn may have a point in that the drives onboard controller may be hardwired for 4k and expect a 4k sector and if it were some how reformated to 512b, it may just malfunction.

 

[vailr]

@Googer:
The HD controller firmware is not altered in any way, when adjusting the sector size via a low-level format. Call up your favorite HD factory rep: Seagate, Western Digital, Samsung, Hitachi, Toshiba, etc. and ask them.
Although your whole argument about the PS3 "requiring" a 4k sector size seems somewhat questionable, I'll just "assume" that part of your argument is correct. But: to say that any standard off-the-shelf HD can't be low-level formatted to a 4k sector size (within certain constraints of partition size) is, AFAIK, basically incorrect.
"Low level format" would allow altering the data layout scheme (sector size) on the magnetic recording media (the HD platter).

"Normal formatting" (such as when booting from the installation CD and installing Windows onto a brand new hard drive) automatically sets and creates the sector size, and doesn't offer to make any adjustment in that parameter. "Normal re-formatting" of a USED hard drive also won't offer to make any changes in the sector size, but just accepts whatever sector size is already present.

In theory, one could do a "clean room" swap of physical HD platters (of differing sector sizes) and the firmware would still work fine afterwards. The "low level format" software would simply accomplish the same end result, but without the expense of the "clean room".

 

[Googer]

Many of these new fangled 4k drives have jumper settings for an emulation mode which suggests to me that the drive controller may be hardwired in some manner for 4k.

I know about low level formatting and I agree that your theory is probable. But I never said the PS3 requires 4k sectors. This thread was started to address the issue of advanced format and PS3, whether or not it can benefit from such drives.

When I get my 4k advanced format drive later this year, the 1st thing I will do is investigate if you can reformat to 512b. Perhaps I will buy a 2nd cheaper ($30) drive and use it for my experiments.

 

[mfenn]

@Googer:
The HD controller firmware is not altered in any way, when adjusting the sector size via a low-level format. Call up your favorite HD factory rep: Seagate, Western Digital, Samsung, Hitachi, Toshiba, etc. and ask them.
Although your whole argument about the PS3 "requiring" a 4k sector size seems somewhat questionable, I'll just "assume" that part of your argument is correct. But: to say that any standard off-the-shelf HD can't be low-level formatted to a 4k sector size (within certain constraints of partition size) is, AFAIK, basically incorrect.
"Low level format" would allow altering the data layout scheme (sector size) on the magnetic recording media (the HD platter).

No, this is completely and 100% wrong. Read up about the changes that go along with advanced format and you'll see how much has changed. For example, all of the error checking areas on the disk are a different size, requiring the buffers in the firmware to be of a different size. I suppose that you're going to tell me that HDD firmware uses dynamically allocated buffers.

The fact that you don't understand the issues that can be caused by using a 4K drive with an OS (PS3 OS in this case) that is designed for a 512B sector size further shows that you don't know what you're talking about. If the PS3 is sending 512B requests to a drive with a native 4K sector size, then each write request forces the drive to do a read-modify-write operation on 4K worth of data. Now imagine what will happen when those 512B requests are coming in one after another.

"Normal formatting" (such as when booting from the installation CD and installing Windows onto a brand new hard drive) automatically sets and creates the sector size, and doesn't offer to make any adjustment in that parameter. "Normal re-formatting" of a USED hard drive also won't offer to make any changes in the sector size, but just accepts whatever sector size is already present.

Again, you're conflating two completely separate ideas. Creating a file system on a drive ("formatting") has absolutely nothing to do with the sector size of the drive. The file system deals in logical block addresses only, it in no way sets any physical attributes on the drive.

In theory, one could do a "clean room" swap of physical HD platters (of differing sector sizes) and the firmware would still work fine afterwards. The "low level format" software would simply accomplish the same end result, but without the expense of the "clean room".

See above. You have no concept of the issues involved in programming an embedded system like a hard drive controller.

 

[ChrisMCP]

I've searched all possible sources about using 1TB WD 4k drives with PS3 (the new 1TB WD Blue 9.5mm drive in particular) and found one positive experience so far.

At the same time, the new PS3 Slim revision (released this summer CECH-3001A/B), as per PS3Devwiki is using the Toshiba MK3276GSX (320GB) which is said by some retailers to be a 4K drive (can someone confirm this?). I'm almost sure the 160GB model is using the MK1676GSX version of the same drive. I have a new box with CECH-3001A 160GB waiting to be opened so I can check on that soon. :sneaky:

 

[ChrisMCP]

Another interesting find (I don't speak Japanese but it looks like as of firmware 3.72 -- 4k drives do work). The guy is using the new Cech-3000A for sure that came with Hitachi HTS543216A7A384. I can't find information if it's a 4K drive though.:\

 

[gorcorps]

I have a feeling this is going to be a stupid question... but why don't you just use a USB drive? Formatted in FAT32 it'll play any media just fine. You can backup gamesaves and data too, though they won't play directly off of the drive. I guess without knowing what you're filling your drive up with I don't know if it would help, but it seems like a much less complicated option.

 

[Googer]

I have a feeling this is going to be a stupid question... but why don't you just use a USB drive? Formatted in FAT32 it'll play any media just fine. You can backup gamesaves and data too, though they won't play directly off of the drive. I guess without knowing what you're filling your drive up with I don't know if it would help, but it seems like a much less complicated option.

I have a feeling this is going to be a stupid question... but why don't you just use a USB drive? Formatted in FAT32 it'll play any media just fine. You can backup gamesaves and data too, though they won't play directly off of the drive. I guess without knowing what you're filling your drive up with I don't know if it would help, but it seems like a much less complicated option.

For one, I have noticed much faster responsiveness from my system than any USB drive can offer. For those more brazen, you can use an SSD for instant game loads (remember N64?). Most game saves could fit on a 1.44mb floppy. But like an external USB floppy, game saves cannot run from a USB drive.


When downloading media (pics, movies, games, video, etc), the PS3 will not allow for simultaneous background transfers of new media to an external device. For movie rentals, hulu, etc, a USB drives are not allowed. That can only be done with the internal hard drive. You can't install or download games to a USB class storage device and a lot of PS3's have only 2 USB ports.

A Single 500GB Laptop Drive is faster and sometimes much cheaper, more convenient than a USB drive of the same size. Plus an internal drive makes the PS3 easier to move.

Also I had an issue with an external drive falling asleep while performing a restore operation which meant I had to reformat the 2.5inch laptop drive and redo everything. This wouldn't likely happen with an internal drive.

Finally, changing the drive on the PS3 is a overly simple operation and Sony intended for it to be that way by adding a small door at the bottom labeled "HDD" with no screws required to remove the panel (one needed to remove the drive caddy). What has complected things (and the reason for this thread) is this recent changeover to 4k Sector Advanced format in which Sony seems to have not been prepared for, thus the reason for this threads very existence.





Those with 2 usb ports can elect to use a hub, external memory card reader, or almost any usb device class listed below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4CHQ7uiXmM

Class	Usage	Description	Examples, or exception
00h	Device	Unspecified[13]	Device class is unspecified, interface descriptors are used to determine needed drivers
01h	Interface	Audio	Speaker, microphone, sound card, MIDI
02h	Both	Communications and CDC Control	Modem, Ethernet adapter, Wi-Fi adapter
03h	Interface	Human interface device (HID)	Keyboard, mouse, joystick
05h	Interface	Physical Interface Device (PID)	Force feedback joystick
06h	Interface	Image	Webcam, scanner
07h	Interface	Printer	Laser printer, inkjet printer, CNC machine
08h	Interface	Mass storage	USB flash drive, memory card reader, digital audio player, digital camera, external drive
09h	Device	USB hub	Full bandwidth hub
0Ah	Interface	CDC-Data	Used together with class 02h: communications and CDC control
0Bh	Interface	Smart Card	USB smart card reader
0Dh	Interface	Content security	Fingerprint reader
0Eh	Interface	Video	Webcam
0Fh	Interface	Personal Healthcare	Pulse monitor (watch)
DCh	Both	Diagnostic Device	USB compliance testing device
E0h	Interface	Wireless Controller	Bluetooth adapter, Microsoft RNDIS
EFh	Both	Miscellaneous	ActiveSync device
[COLOR="White"][SIZE="1"]FEh	Interface	Application-specific	IrDA Bridge, Test & Measurement Class (USBTMC),[14] USB DFU (Direct Firmware update)[15]
FFh	Both	Vendor-specific	Indicates that a device needs vendor specific drivers[/SIZE][/COLOR]

 

[ChrisMCP]

So can anyone confirm the MK3276GSX is a 4k drive? The Toshiba's page here is less than unhelpful. :hmm:

http://storage.toshiba.com/main.asp...s/PCNotebook/MKxx76GSXSeries/MKxx76GSXSupport

 

[jbear76]

Be careful that you order a drive which is thin enough. Not all 2.5 drives are. I have a 500mb Seagate that was a shell shocker on NE a while back.

Also, watch the screws on the drive caddy. You need a super high quality, pretty sharp screwdriver to make it easy. The screwdriver out of my $10 newegg toolkit messed up the caddy screws terribly. A really high quality tool made it pretty easy.

 

[Googer]

Be careful that you order a drive which is thin enough. Not all 2.5 drives are. I have a 500mb Seagate that was a shell shocker on NE a while back.

Also, watch the screws on the drive caddy. You need a super high quality, pretty sharp screwdriver to make it easy. The screwdriver out of my $10 newegg toolkit messed up the caddy screws terribly. A really high quality tool made it pretty easy.

Most of the current generation 512b hard drives are 9.5mm thick. The exception to this rule is the Western Digital 1TB and possibly the next size down.

 

[Googer]

So can anyone confirm the MK3276GSX is a 4k drive? The Toshiba's page here is less than unhelpful. :hmm:

http://storage.toshiba.com/main.asp...s/PCNotebook/MKxx76GSXSeries/MKxx76GSXSupport

According to the specs, the Toshiba MK3276GSX is 512b in size. Since it is part of that series, I might assume all the other drive models are 512b and share similar specifications. But it is more expensive than the WD5000BEKT 500GB WD that I recently purchased for $55. But if the Toshiba 640GB is a thinner drive (at a higher cost) than a similar Hitachi, Seagate, WD, or Samsung, then by all means consider it for your PS3.

http://storage.toshiba.com/main.asp...ebook/MKxx76GSXSeries/MKxx76GSXSpecifications

MK1676GSX
MK2576GSX
MK3276GSX
MK5076GSX
MK6476GSX
 	Series Overview	 

 	Drive Capacity	160GB*	250GB*	320GB*	500GB*	640GB*
 	Drive Interface	Serial ATA, Revision 2.6 (ATA-8)
 	Number of Platters (disks)	1	1	1	2	2
 	Number of Data Heads	1	2	2	4	4
 	[B][U][COLOR="Red"]Sector Size (bytes)	512[/COLOR][/U][/B]
 	RoHS Compliant	Yes
 	Transfer Rate to Host	3 Gb/sec
 	Performance	 

 	Track-to-track Seek	2 ms
 	Average Seek Time	12 ms
 	Rotational Speed	5,400 RPM
 	Average Latency	5.55ms
 	Buffer Size	8MB
 	Power Requirements	 

 	Voltage	5V (+/- 5%)
 	Spin up (start) Power	4.5 watts
 	Seek Power	1.85 watts
 	Read/Write Power	1.5 watts
 	Low Power Idle	0.55 watts
 	Standby Power	0.18 watts
 	Sleep Power	0.15 watts
 	Physical Size	 

 	Dimensions (W) x (D) x (H)	69.85 mm (2.75") x 100.0 mm (3.94") x 9.5 mm (0.37")
 	Weight	98 g (3.46 oz)	98 g (3.46 oz)	98 g (3.46 oz)	102 g (3.60 oz)	102 g (3.60 oz)
 	Environmental	 

 	Temp - Operating	5° to 55°C (41° to 131°F)
 	Temp - Non-Operating	-40° to 60°C (-40° to 140°F)
 	Vibration - Operating	9.8 m/s² (1.0G) 5 to 500Hz
 	Vibration - Non-Operating	49.0 m/s² (5.0G) 15 to 500Hz
 	Shock - Operating	3,920 m/s² (400G) 2ms
 	Shock - Non-Operating	8,820 m/s² (900G) 1ms
 	Acoustics	 

 	Acoustics (idle)	19 dB	19 dB	19 dB	25 dB	25 dB
 	Acoustics (seek)	20 dB	20 dB	20 dB	25 dB	25 dB
 	Warranty	 

 	Limited Warranty	3 years (from date of purchase)

 

[Googer]

One thing to note, when changing the drive; be sure to use a very high quality screwdriver; because Sony used aluminum screws which are easily deformed if you don't use a good tool.

I speak from experience. When I got out my craftsman professional screwdriver, the screw went back in with out any added deformation.

 

[Googer]

Another interesting find (I don't speak Japanese but it looks like as of firmware 3.72 -- 4k drives do work). The guy is using the new Cech-3000A for sure that came with Hitachi HTS543216A7A384. I can't find information if it's a 4K drive though.:\

4K drives are reported to work but cause your PS3 to shudder when loading. As of v3.72, I cannot comment since my HDTV is dead for the moment.

 

[ChrisMCP]

Any news on this as of fw 4.10?

 

[Googer]

Any news on this as of fw 4.10?

I haven't read anything but that doesn't mean it's been fixed or not.

 

[Googer]

Another interesting find (I don't speak Japanese but it looks like as of firmware 3.72 -- 4k drives do work). The guy is using the new Cech-3000A for sure that came with Hitachi HTS543216A7A384. I can't find information if it's a 4K drive though.:\

The HTS543216A7A384 is a member of Z5K320 family. According to HGST, it is a 512b per sector drive. However, Sony probably has a custom OEM agreement for some sort off spec drive for Playstation 3. So the specs listed on Hitachi's site may not be the exact same thing found in the PS3.



http://www.hitachigst.com/internal-drives/mobile/travelstar/travelstar-z5k320

 

[Googer]

I'm also happy to report that a Western Digital WD5000BEKT is working beautifully with no hiccups in my original 60GB "FAT" PS3. 7,200 RPM has made some difference in load times but if you find a better deal on a 5,400 RPM drive then by all means buy it, especially if it's of a higher capacity (like 1TB).