Nearly 8,000 physicians call for National Health Insurance

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PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
My 3 day old son was taken for his checkup to his pediatrician. He was more blue than the Dr. liked, so he called the pediatric cardiologist that was on call and we took him over to his office. After performing a echocardiogram he determined he had a heart condition (transposition of the great arteries). Testing his oxygen, he found it was very low. We walked him up 2 flights of stairs to a level 4 trauma center pediatric ICU. He went into emergency surgery with one of the best pediatric heart surgeons in the country.

I guarantee you that with nationalized healthcare, my son would be dead. You won't find a level 4 trauma center with a top pediatric heart surgeon in a town of 100,000 in any socialized healthcare system. He probably would have died while we sat in queue for a pediatric cardiologist to diagnose him.

Everyone know that if you are Canadian and have a cold, you go to your Canadian doctor. If you have advanced cancer, heart conditions, etc., you come to the US doctor.

1 case vs the thousands that die every day due to not having healthcare coverage.

hmmmm.

i feel bad for your son, but that is not an argument FOR or AGAINST national healthcare.
Show me where 1000's die every day due to not having healthcare coverage. Back up your assertion. Because you can't, it isn't true.

What is medicare/medicaid? Walk into any emergency room without medical coverage, you won't be denied treatment, they can't deny you treatment.

And my 1 case just happened to be one of 14 kids in the PICU while I was there. 14 per week, that's 728 per year. For one small town. Lives saved because of advanced healthcare. And I know FOR A FACT that at least 3 or 4 of those kids did not have medical coverage.

Try again.

i don't have to back up anything.

you obviously missed my point. it is obvioulsy harder to quantify how many are dying do to lack of national healthcare plan. we do know that the US ranks 37th according to UN for overall health.

also your numbers are just as contrived. IF we did have national healthcare the specialist you mentioned would be LESS accessible but not necessarily TOTALLY UNACCESSIBLE. hence it is not a direct correlation. it would not be every child in PICU would end up dead.

again, when discussing national Healtcare, individual cases like yours are GREAT for getting the liberals to tear up, but they don't add significantly to the discussion.

So when you said 1000's die every day due to no healthcare, were you lying? Is that why you don't have to back it up? Saying 1000's die every day is GREAT for getting folks to tear up, but it doesn't add significantly to our discussion (since it is false).

You certainly can't use the UN's ranking for overall health. Health is a reflection of lifestyle, not healthcare. The US provides the most advanced healthcare in the world. Hence we all feel as if we can go to buffets, smoke, not exercise, and stress out over work because we know lots of the times healthcare will save us. hence it is not a direct correlation. A bit of personal responsibility in our country would do wonders for healthcare costs.

And again, I can assure you that under national healthcare, a superior cardiac ped surgeon would be unavailable to my community. All we need to do is look north to recognize this.

PS you all missed a chance to prove me stupid :) It's a Level 1 trauma center, 1 is the best, 4 is the lowest. Making edits to above posts...not sure where I got the 4 in my mind from...

WRONG,

US provides the MOST ADVANCED healthcare in the WORLD ONLY to those that can AFFORD IT.

again. general statements can be made and YES the point of the 1000's die every day was just to counter you own tear jerking story.

did i LIE, NO, not knowingly. I GUESSTIMATED and is it true? causation etc etc is hard to prove, but i don't have to prove it here. whethor it is a LIE or not is really based on ACTUAL Truth not PERCEPTION of truth.

 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
alchemize

you seem to have missed an earlier post of mine. I'm not actually in support of national healthcare.

it's just my opinion that your story is not good evidence for or against national healthcare.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
My 3 day old son was taken for his checkup to his pediatrician. He was more blue than the Dr. liked, so he called the pediatric cardiologist that was on call and we took him over to his office. After performing a echocardiogram he determined he had a heart condition (transposition of the great arteries). Testing his oxygen, he found it was very low. We walked him up 2 flights of stairs to a level 4 trauma center pediatric ICU. He went into emergency surgery with one of the best pediatric heart surgeons in the country.

I guarantee you that with nationalized healthcare, my son would be dead. You won't find a level 4 trauma center with a top pediatric heart surgeon in a town of 100,000 in any socialized healthcare system. He probably would have died while we sat in queue for a pediatric cardiologist to diagnose him.

Everyone know that if you are Canadian and have a cold, you go to your Canadian doctor. If you have advanced cancer, heart conditions, etc., you come to the US doctor.

1 case vs the thousands that die every day due to not having healthcare coverage.

hmmmm.

i feel bad for your son, but that is not an argument FOR or AGAINST national healthcare.
Show me where 1000's die every day due to not having healthcare coverage. Back up your assertion. Because you can't, it isn't true.

What is medicare/medicaid? Walk into any emergency room without medical coverage, you won't be denied treatment, they can't deny you treatment.

And my 1 case just happened to be one of 14 kids in the PICU while I was there. 14 per week, that's 728 per year. For one small town. Lives saved because of advanced healthcare. And I know FOR A FACT that at least 3 or 4 of those kids did not have medical coverage.

Try again.

i don't have to back up anything.

you obviously missed my point. it is obvioulsy harder to quantify how many are dying do to lack of national healthcare plan. we do know that the US ranks 37th according to UN for overall health.

also your numbers are just as contrived. IF we did have national healthcare the specialist you mentioned would be LESS accessible but not necessarily TOTALLY UNACCESSIBLE. hence it is not a direct correlation. it would not be every child in PICU would end up dead.

again, when discussing national Healtcare, individual cases like yours are GREAT for getting the liberals to tear up, but they don't add significantly to the discussion.

So when you said 1000's die every day due to no healthcare, were you lying? Is that why you don't have to back it up? Saying 1000's die every day is GREAT for getting folks to tear up, but it doesn't add significantly to our discussion (since it is false).

You certainly can't use the UN's ranking for overall health. Health is a reflection of lifestyle, not healthcare. The US provides the most advanced healthcare in the world. Hence we all feel as if we can go to buffets, smoke, not exercise, and stress out over work because we know lots of the times healthcare will save us. hence it is not a direct correlation. A bit of personal responsibility in our country would do wonders for healthcare costs.

And again, I can assure you that under national healthcare, a superior cardiac ped surgeon would be unavailable to my community. All we need to do is look north to recognize this.

PS you all missed a chance to prove me stupid :) It's a Level 1 trauma center, 1 is the best, 4 is the lowest. Making edits to above posts...not sure where I got the 4 in my mind from...

WRONG,

US provides the MOST ADVANCED healthcare in the WORLD ONLY to those that can AFFORD IT.

again. general statements can be made and YES the point of the 1000's die every day was just to counter you own tear jerking story.

did i LIE, NO, not knowingly. I GUESSTIMATED and is it true? causation etc etc is hard to prove, but i don't have to prove it here. whethor it is a LIE or not is really based on ACTUAL Truth not PERCEPTION of truth.

You once again lie, distort the facts, whatever you want to call it.

How do you explain the 3/14 children in PICU that had no healthcare? They couldn't afford it.

How do you explain that EVERY SINGLE EMERGENCY that ever goes into an emergency room receives treatment?

It's probably time for you to give up your argument, it's failed miserably. Try another course of action so I don't have to rip holes in your logic. I'll even help you.

Low and mid-level medical care is difficult to get for the uninsured (but not impossible, they can always go to an emergency room). We should fix this. Perhaps this is the bare minimum national health care insurance needed?

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
alchemize

you seem to have missed an earlier post of mine. I'm not actually in support of national healthcare.

it's just my opinion that your story is not good evidence for or against national healthcare.
My story is anectdotal evidence of what our current health care system provides. It is 100% relevant when I related it to the context of a high level of healthcare provided to small communities, and how socialized medicine fails at that.

And of course, it's just my opinion also. I don't want to have a flame war with you, I want you to be accurate and responsible for your statements.

 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Healthcare costs in the US are high and should remain higher than the rest of the world to maintain the level of care currently available. The dramatic rise in the costs of healthcare in the US over the past decade have been a result of massively increased administrative costs, out of control malpractice premiums and bad insurance actuarying (is that a word?).

The solution is likely a mandated national insurance plan that is NOT funded by taxpayer dollars but by contributers. A plan that simplifys and eliminates paperwork to eliminate adminstrative costs but is not in the hands of government. This should go hand in hand with a cap on malpratice awards and a cooresponding required reduction in premium costs to doctors and stricter state regulation of doctors.

The problem with healthcare in the US is that every insurance company has it's own codes, paper work and submission timeline to pay doctors. Doctors in turn have to hire 3 full time staff positions to bill for their work. This is what is killing healthcare in the US. Overhead is the problem and a federally mandated uniformed filing and payment system would lower that overhead and reduce healthcare costs. Anyone who has visted the doctor or hospital knows that billing takes 6months or more, that costs everyone money.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
alchemize

you seem to have missed an earlier post of mine. I'm not actually in support of national healthcare.

it's just my opinion that your story is not good evidence for or against national healthcare.
My story is anectdotal evidence of what our current health care system provides. It is 100% relevant when I related it to the context of a high level of healthcare provided to small communities, and how socialized medicine fails at that.

And of course, it's just my opinion also. I don't want to have a flame war with you, I want you to be accurate and responsible for your statements.

"1000's of people die everyday due to not having national healthcare"

what RESPONSIBILITY do you want me to take? i've already said it is a guestimate. it's not a LIE and you should take responsibility for your statements also btw. as a lie is a knowing falsehood.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
alchemize

you seem to have missed an earlier post of mine. I'm not actually in support of national healthcare.

it's just my opinion that your story is not good evidence for or against national healthcare.
My story is anectdotal evidence of what our current health care system provides. It is 100% relevant when I related it to the context of a high level of healthcare provided to small communities, and how socialized medicine fails at that.

And of course, it's just my opinion also. I don't want to have a flame war with you, I want you to be accurate and responsible for your statements.

"1000's of people die everyday due to not having national healthcare"

what RESPONSIBILITY do you want me to take? i've already said it is a guestimate. it's not a LIE and you should take responsibility for your statements also btw. as a lie is a knowing falsehood.

It wasn't even a guesstimate, it was a provocative statement. There is nothing anywhere in any study or news article that supports it.

I back up every assertion I've made on healthcare. The one I can't backup (without some research) is the availability of Level 1 trauma centers in Canada. I'm making an assumption based on prior readings.

And I can't predict the future. I don't really know what socialized healthcare would mean, but I can predict based on comparison with Canada.

So are you withdrawing that "1000's die every day" statement? you'll be more of a man if you just say "I was wrong, retracted". :) :beer:
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
alchemize

you seem to have missed an earlier post of mine. I'm not actually in support of national healthcare.

it's just my opinion that your story is not good evidence for or against national healthcare.
My story is anectdotal evidence of what our current health care system provides. It is 100% relevant when I related it to the context of a high level of healthcare provided to small communities, and how socialized medicine fails at that.

And of course, it's just my opinion also. I don't want to have a flame war with you, I want you to be accurate and responsible for your statements.

"1000's of people die everyday due to not having national healthcare"

what RESPONSIBILITY do you want me to take? i've already said it is a guestimate. it's not a LIE and you should take responsibility for your statements also btw. as a lie is a knowing falsehood.

It wasn't even a guesstimate, it was a provocative statement. There is nothing anywhere in any study or news article that supports it.

I back up every assertion I've made on healthcare. The one I can't backup (without some research) is the availability of Level 1 trauma centers in Canada. I'm making an assumption based on prior readings.

And I can't predict the future. I don't really know what socialized healthcare would mean, but I can predict based on comparison with Canada.

So are you withdrawing that "1000's die every day" statement? you'll be more of a man if you just say "I was wrong, retracted". :) :beer:

sorry, whethor or not i retract that statement will have NO impact on my penis. on my "manhood".
 

PhilsPhan

Member
Jul 10, 2003
45
0
0
Jeez I wish everyone would get off alchemize's back. His story is great proof that the American medical system is one of the best and no other county's compares. I mean holy cow people these docs made a small "blue" child who's health was in question (even believed heart condition) walk up 2 flights of stairs. I mean jeez if it was in Canada (whose doctors some how are able to diagnose heart condtions even if alchemize doesnt believe so) they may have put the child in a bed and wheeled him up to the trauma center, a hell of a lot healthier option (oh wait its Canada they don't have trauma centers everyone just dies there.)

alchemize

My 3 day old son was taken for his checkup to his pediatrician. He was more blue than the Dr. liked, so he called the pediatric cardiologist that was on call and we took him over to his office. After performing a echocardiogram he determined he had a heart condition (transposition of the great arteries). Testing his oxygen, he found it was very low. We walked him up 2 flights of stairs to a level 1 trauma center pediatric ICU. He went into emergency surgery with one of the best pediatric heart surgeons in the country.

I guarantee you that with nationalized healthcare, my son would be dead. You won't find a level 1 trauma center with a top pediatric heart surgeon in a town of 100,000 in any socialized healthcare system. He probably would have died while we sat in queue for a pediatric cardiologist to diagnose him.

Everyone know that if you are Canadian and have a cold, you go to your Canadian doctor. If you have advanced cancer, heart conditions, etc., you come to the US doctor.

Edit: fixed the level from 4 to 1
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: alchemize
sorry, whethor or not i retract that statement will have NO impact on my penis. on my "manhood".
Being a man is more than just having the attachment :)

were you the one that mocked me the other day in a thread because i had novocaine injections for a teeth cleaning?

actually it was a cleaning and a planing.

i can just feel my penis shrinking because all these ater's think i'm not a man.
rolleye.gif
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: PhilsPhan
Jeez I wish everyone would get off back. His story is great proof that the American medical system is one of the best and no other county's compares. I mean holy cow people these docs made a small "blue" child who's health was in question (even believed heart condition) walk up 2 flights of stairs. I mean jeez if it was in Canada (whose doctors some how are able to diagnose heart condtions even if doesnt believe so) they may have put the child in a bed and wheeled him up to the trauma center, a hell of a lot healthier option (oh wait its Canada they don't have trauma centers everyone just dies there.)
What a great, well thought-out intelligent response! Your #4 post shows how much of a wonderful contribution you'll be to this forum
rolleye.gif


I pray you'll never have to run one of your family through YOUR system if it comes to it some day.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
sorry, whethor or not i retract that statement will have NO impact on my penis. on my "manhood".
Being a man is more than just having the attachment :)

were you the one that mocked me the other day in a thread because i had novocaine injections for a teeth cleaning?

actually it was a cleaning and a planing.

i can just feel my penis shrinking because all these ater's think i'm not a man.
rolleye.gif

No that was me, you panzy ass dentist fraidycat! Be a man! ;)
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: rahvin
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
sorry, whethor or not i retract that statement will have NO impact on my penis. on my "manhood".
Being a man is more than just having the attachment :)

were you the one that mocked me the other day in a thread because i had novocaine injections for a teeth cleaning?

actually it was a cleaning and a planing.

i can just feel my penis shrinking because all these ater's think i'm not a man.
rolleye.gif

No that was me, you panzy ass dentist fraidycat! Be a man! ;)

ahhhh.

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
sorry, whethor or not i retract that statement will have NO impact on my penis. on my "manhood".
Being a man is more than just having the attachment :)

were you the one that mocked me the other day in a thread because i had novocaine injections for a teeth cleaning?

actually it was a cleaning and a planing.

i can just feel my penis shrinking because all these ater's think i'm not a man.
rolleye.gif
No, that definitely wasn't me :) being a man has nothing to do with pain tolerance.

 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
sorry, whethor or not i retract that statement will have NO impact on my penis. on my "manhood".
Being a man is more than just having the attachment :)

were you the one that mocked me the other day in a thread because i had novocaine injections for a teeth cleaning?

actually it was a cleaning and a planing.

i can just feel my penis shrinking because all these ater's think i'm not a man.
rolleye.gif
No, that definitely wasn't me :) being a man has nothing to do with pain tolerance.

you see, now that is the crux of the issue now isn't it.

you say i must retract a statement which i don't feel needs retraction in order to be a man.

Rahvin says i'm not a man because i don't tolerate pain well.

me, i say i'm a man because i have a penis.

hmmm. so, IF i were to retract my own values and accept a definition offered by someone else as to what is a "man" does that make me MORE of a man or LESS of a man?

me, i'm just going to ignore other peoples definitions as to what it means to be a "man" as in some parts of the world being a man requires that he sleeps with many many women, in other parts of the world being a man means he should be able to beat the brains out of any Male that sleeps with his sister. . .

me, i'm just to simple a person to try and deal with all those definitions. i'll just live as i've always lived, thank you. ;)
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: alchemize
My 3 day old son was taken for his checkup to his pediatrician. He was more blue than the Dr. liked, so he called the pediatric cardiologist that was on call and we took him over to his office. After performing a echocardiogram he determined he had a heart condition (transposition of the great arteries). Testing his oxygen, he found it was very low. We walked him up 2 flights of stairs to a level 4 trauma center pediatric ICU. He went into emergency surgery with one of the best pediatric heart surgeons in the country.

I guarantee you that with nationalized healthcare, my son would be dead. You won't find a level 4 trauma center with a top pediatric heart surgeon in a town of 100,000 in any socialized healthcare system. He probably would have died while we sat in queue for a pediatric cardiologist to diagnose him.

Everyone know that if you are Canadian and have a cold, you go to your Canadian doctor. If you have advanced cancer, heart conditions, etc., you come to the US doctor.

sorry to hear that your son has this condition but your statement is just bs
Oh, I see you know all about US and Canadian health care from your ivory belgium tower? Do you even know what a Level 4 Trauma center is? Do you honestly believe that Canadians don't come to the US for advanced health care? If my statement is BS, then SHOW ME. Show me a single small canadian city with a Level 4 trauma center.

And I do appreciate your condolences, but my son is a fighter and is doing extremely well now :) Thanks to the "failing US healthcare system".

I called it bs because I was not talking about the USA vs Canada but "Private Healthcare" vs "socialized medicine"
I called it bs because of this statement you made

I guarantee you that with nationalized healthcare, my son would be dead

maybe if that happened in a Canadian hospital your son would be death but maybe all this is saying that Canada is a bad example of socialized medicine (and I'm talking out of my ass here because I don't know much about the Canadian system). There are plenty of countries around the world with socialized healthcare where your son would have had the same level of care like in an US hospital.
If you can not acknowledge that fact you better get out of your ivory tower.

Canadians go to the US for healthcare just like the Brits are coming to Belgium and France to get decent healthcare.
IMO good healthcare in the end is not about ideology. Healthcare is not good or bad because it is private or socialized. It's good or bad because the way it is run.

You are convinced that a govt. can not run a decent healthcare system. Just look at the WHO link I provided earlier and if you can look at it with an open mind MAYBE you will learn that a govt. can run a decent healtcare system.

You seem to be happy with your system. Kudos for you. It's nice to see that your son received the best care possible and that is something to be proud of. Just don't abuse that proud to claim that all socialized healthcare systems are bad.

European governments run everything, they are socialist. It isn't in our nature to have things run by the government here. When we try to, it just plain doesn't work. If we tried it, it likely would end up like the CA system.

I concur there are problems. I concur the drug companies are out of control. But don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Recognize what *works* (and arguably works best in the world) in the system, and focus on what doesn't.

According to his study my govt. is doing a good job

We Are Number One

Woot
 

PhilsPhan

Member
Jul 10, 2003
45
0
0
Quote alchemize
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a great, well thought-out intelligent response! Your #4 post shows how much of a wonderful contribution you'll be to this forum

I pray you'll never have to run one of your family through YOUR system if it comes to it some day.

I wasn't aware that the number of post you acrue depicts your worth to a particular forum, I thought it was the amount of inteligent posts that you choose to voice an opion about that counts. I am sorry that was my mistake. But I am glad you agree that personal attacks are not called for in forums...

In fact I work for "our" system in Philadelphia. And sorry but I have seen many in the profession make blunders and mistakes. I was wondering how much information do you actually know about other country's medical systems? From your post it seems very little and I was hoping to make you aware of that with my earlier post. Remember there is a little saying about assuming.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
alchemize

one last point, and as i said, i don't support a national health plan, but here is WHY your example wasn't a good argument against the plan.

US ranks below most european and a lot of asian countries in a key health statistic that is NOT life style dependent or only moderately so.

Infant mortality.

A link if you want one.

infant mortality is more a function of WHO is doing the delivery than lifesyle of the person involved.

btw, Is there really that big a difference between lifestyle of canadians or brits from that of the US?? i have a hard time believing that life style choices is that significant a factor when comparing US with other industrialized nations.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
sorry, whethor or not i retract that statement will have NO impact on my penis. on my "manhood".
Being a man is more than just having the attachment :)

were you the one that mocked me the other day in a thread because i had novocaine injections for a teeth cleaning?

actually it was a cleaning and a planing.

i can just feel my penis shrinking because all these ater's think i'm not a man.
rolleye.gif
No, that definitely wasn't me :) being a man has nothing to do with pain tolerance.

you see, now that is the crux of the issue now isn't it.

you say i must retract a statement which i don't feel needs retraction in order to be a man.

Rahvin says i'm not a man because i don't tolerate pain well.

me, i say i'm a man because i have a penis.

hmmm. so, IF i were to retract my own values and accept a definition offered by someone else as to what is a "man" does that make me MORE of a man or LESS of a man?

me, i'm just going to ignore other peoples definitions as to what it means to be a "man" as in some parts of the world being a man requires that he sleeps with many many women, in other parts of the world being a man means he should be able to beat the brains out of any Male that sleeps with his sister. . .

me, i'm just to simple a person to try and deal with all those definitions. i'll just live as i've always lived, thank you. ;)

OK, let's return to the root of the problem here, the ignorance of your statement.

"1000's die each day every day due to the lack of healthcare"

Since you are representing this as plural, we'll go with the minimum, 2,000. That represents 730,000 deaths per year. The last number I could find was roughly 43 million uninsured Americans. Are you saying 1.6% of all uninsured americans DIE every year? Wow, we really do have a problem.

More fascinating, in 2002 there were roughly 2.4 million deaths from all causes. So 30% of all deaths were uninsured Americans! Wow, we really do have a problem!

Still standing by your statement?
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: alchemize
sorry, whethor or not i retract that statement will have NO impact on my penis. on my "manhood".
Being a man is more than just having the attachment :)

were you the one that mocked me the other day in a thread because i had novocaine injections for a teeth cleaning?

actually it was a cleaning and a planing.

i can just feel my penis shrinking because all these ater's think i'm not a man.
rolleye.gif
No, that definitely wasn't me :) being a man has nothing to do with pain tolerance.

you see, now that is the crux of the issue now isn't it.

you say i must retract a statement which i don't feel needs retraction in order to be a man.

Rahvin says i'm not a man because i don't tolerate pain well.

me, i say i'm a man because i have a penis.

hmmm. so, IF i were to retract my own values and accept a definition offered by someone else as to what is a "man" does that make me MORE of a man or LESS of a man?

me, i'm just going to ignore other peoples definitions as to what it means to be a "man" as in some parts of the world being a man requires that he sleeps with many many women, in other parts of the world being a man means he should be able to beat the brains out of any Male that sleeps with his sister. . .

me, i'm just to simple a person to try and deal with all those definitions. i'll just live as i've always lived, thank you. ;)

OK, let's return to the root of the problem here, the ignorance of your statement.

"1000's die each day every day due to the lack of healthcare"

Since you are representing this as plural, we'll go with the minimum, 2,000. That represents 730,000 deaths per year. The last number I could find was roughly 43 million uninsured Americans. Are you saying 1.6% of all uninsured americans DIE every year? Wow, we really do have a problem.

More fascinating, in 2002 there were roughly 2.4 million deaths from all causes. So 30% of all deaths were uninsured Americans! Wow, we really do have a problem!

Still standing by your statement?

:)

the statistic that i made up was wrong, my point however was still right.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
alchemize

one last point, and as i said, i don't support a national health plan, but here is WHY your example wasn't a good argument against the plan.

US ranks below most european and a lot of asian countries in a key health statistic that is NOT life style dependent or only moderately so.

Infant mortality.

A link if you want one.

infant mortality is more a function of WHO is doing the delivery than lifesyle of the person involved.

btw, Is there really that big a difference between lifestyle of canadians or brits from that of the US?? i have a hard time believing that life style choices is that significant a factor when comparing US with other industrialized nations.
You are even going farther out of whack here on this one. Lifestyle is HUGE factor in infant mortality:

Leading Causes of Infant Death: (2000)
Congenital Anomalies: 5,743
Pre-Term/Low Birthweight: 4,397*
Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS): 2,523*
Problems Related to Complications of Pregnancy: 1,404*
Respiratory Distress Syndrome: 999

*These are PROVEN by many scientific studies to have causal relationships with the mother's lifestyle.

US ranks below most european and a lot of asian countries in a key health statistic that is NOT life style dependent or only moderately so.

edit <<retracted I was looking at the overall death rate :) >>

I still stand by the previous statement
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
andora 4.07
aruba 6.26
australia 4.9
austria 4.39
belgium 4.64
canada 4.95
denmark 4.97
faroe islands 6.66
finland 4.41
france 4.41
germany 4.65
gibraltar 6.25
guam 6.58
guernsey 4.92
hong kong 5.73
iceland 3.53
ireland 5.43
italy 5.76
japan 3.84
jersey 5.52
liechtenstein 4.92
luxembourg 4.71
macau 4.44
malta 5.72
monaco 5.73
netherlands 4.31
new zealand 6.18
norway 3.9
san morino 6.09
singapore 3.6
spain 4.85
sweden 3.44
switzerland 4.42


those were the stats that i was looking at, yes it is 2002 estimated. i'm not sure where you got your stats from. it's probably from an earlier year.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I guarantee you that with nationalized healthcare, my son would be dead. Based on what? Saying it over and over does not convince me. I need proff that canadian doctors kill thier patiants or fail to diagnose your sons illness more than at least 50% of the time to even make it probable. I still would'nt Guarnatee it until the numbers showed a 99% fatality rate.. But then I' don't like to gamble. I like facts or at least acnodotal evidence which you have none either... Totally baseless accusation is what you have. Which in a serious debate means nothing AKA rehtoric\

system. He probably would have died while we sat in queue for a pediatric cardiologist to diagnose him.
see above, totally unsupported baseless allegations and besmirchment of canadian system

Everyone know that if you are Canadian and have a cold, you go to your Canadian doctor. If you have advanced cancer, heart conditions, etc., you come to the US doctor
I don't... whos this everyone? Stats? interviews? Or is saying everyone supposed to convince me to "go along" so I don't feel left out of the loop? Peer pressure of sorts. Wel I need proof most cancer patients flee to american for treatment.. Everyone knowing it in this case is not good enough
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
I guarantee you that with nationalized healthcare, my son would be dead. Based on what? Saying it over and over does not convince me. I need proff that canadian doctors kill thier patiants or fail to diagnose your sons illness more than at least 50% of the time to even make it probable. I still would'nt Guarnatee it until the numbers showed a 99% fatality rate.. But then I' don't like to gamble. I like facts or at least acnodotal evidence which you have none either... Totally baseless accusation is what you have. Which in a serious debate means nothing AKA rehtoric\

system. He probably would have died while we sat in queue for a pediatric cardiologist to diagnose him.
see above, totally unsupported baseless allegations and besmirchment of canadian system

Everyone know that if you are Canadian and have a cold, you go to your Canadian doctor. If you have advanced cancer, heart conditions, etc., you come to the US doctor
I don't... whos this everyone? Stats? interviews? Or is saying everyone supposed to convince me to "go along" so I don't feel left out of the loop? Peer pressure of sorts. Wel I need proof most cancer patients flee to american for treatment.. Everyone knowing it in this case is not good enough

you know what they say about a mantra, if you repeat it long enough, you start to believe it
repeat after me "USA n°1", "USA, the best"

zebo, I gave a few links to the WHO page earlier in this thread and Alchemize probably didn't look. He repeated the mantra a few times too much :)