NDA for Cayman is lifted 22nd?!

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Teizo

Golden Member
Oct 28, 2010
1,271
31
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Yes. Basically by including a clearly labled OC'd card in the review, Anand single-handedly swayed thousands of idiots into buying nV instead of AMD.

Of course when AMD lowers IQ to improve benches, there are 1000 other possible reasons besides malice.
Lol. Well, if the performance was there and the price was good, are people just supposed to buy AMD like blind sheep just because it was an AMD launch event?

I almost bought a 6850. In fact was planning on doing it, but when I measured the inside of my case I realized that I was going to have space conflicts, and since the 460 was smaller it was a better fit for my needs. And given the fact that the 460 I chose was clocked @ 765 from PNY, that put it just as fast as, or perhaps ever so slightly faster, than the 6850 since the 6850 was only marginally faster than the reference 460 to begin with. Buying a 460 was not a dumb move on my part one bit, especially since the PNY 460 I bought has a true lifetime warranty.

Fact is, you don't see many reference 460s on the market. Most, if not all are factory overclocked. So, when looking at a review compairing a 460 vs a 6850, it doesn't really represent what is out there on the market from the end user perspective and what the customer is going to get because most 460s are clocked @ 720 and up. That in part was why Anand included the card in the review. It's not the norm from how things usually are, but it is how it is.

So, all in all, there was no harm in adding the EVGA FTW in the review except to fanboys who got their feelings hurt because Nvidia showed up to the game ready to play and left the 68's as not the clear favorites as they had hoped for. All this whinning and moaning over it makes people look like complete fools; especially with some of the rhetoric and accusations being spewed. The only real issue with the card I can see is that it was an EVGA card, and not an Nvidia card per se...so it was a card that was not available to all Nvidia AIB's. From that point of view, there is a legitimate gripe perhaps. However, since most 460s are overclocked from the AIB's to begin with as stated, it is somewhat of a moot point.
 
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ginfest

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2000
1,927
3
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Forget *policy* for a second here - I as a reader want as much information as possible, give me a real reason why I, the reader shouldn't be allowed to see a review containing both a stock and an o/c 460 card as well as the 6800's.

Are you saying I'm too thick to work out it's o/c and I might get *confused* into buying an nvidia card? Does it give too many lines in the figures and mean I am unable to see the ati cards due to there being too many cards reviewed? What?

All I've heard is a technicality, which using common sense doesn't apply in this case.

As for the outrage - I think you'll find the only people who were *outraged* were a bunch of sad fan boys who need to grow up and realise amd, nvidia, intel, whoever really don't care about them beyond the money they spend. If they want to put their heart and soul into defending something they should pick something that really matters. In the mean time I hope anandtech ignores them and writes for the people who just want a comprehensive review of graphics cards so they can pick which one they want to buy next.


Greta point Dribble, especially the (my) bolded ;)
The assumption that everyone who reads the article will be deluded into buying NV is ludicrous :)
 

shangshang

Senior member
May 17, 2008
830
0
0
I'm GLAD that Anand threw in the 460 FTW edition!

Those of you who complained. Why?? Everything was clearly labelled. Seems like whining.

And this thread is still useless after 8 pages.

Conclusion, here at AT Video forum, we like to whine and talk on and on about useless stuff. Am I right? But carry on.

PS: and oh btw, the fanboys in here whine more than my girlfriend, who is 17 years younger than me. Anyone ever tries to date a girl 17 years younger than them (I'm in my 30s)? Whine galore, but at least with the girl I get...
 
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MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
4,458
4
81
I'm GLAD that Anand threw in the 460 FTW edition!

Those of you who complained. Why?? Everything was clearly labelled. Seems like whining.

And this thread is still useless after 8 pages.

Conclusion, here at AT Video forum, we like to whine and talk on and on about useless stuff. Am I right? But carry on.
So let's whine about the whining! Yeah!
PS: and oh btw, the fanboys in here whine more than my girlfriend, who is 17 years younger than me. Anyone ever tries to date a girl 17 years younger than them (I'm in my 30s)? Whine galore, but at least with the girl I get...
Love and Relationships
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
36
91
It is called "grasping at straws" Shangshang, and it seems to be getting worse with each new nV release...
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
All the "feature" examples you gave are actually performance numbers. SLI performance or minimum FPS performance are valid performance measurements. I personally don't give a flying donkey about the average or max FPS, I only care for min FPS and calculate accordingly. when I look at the value of SLI/CF I obviously calculate based on the performance (min FPS) of SLI/CF setups and not on the performance of a single card x2.

Actual features are things like eyefinity, 3d, surround, physX, UVD, etc... and yes, you do take those into account
You also phrase this as if I was wrong... when all I said that pure performance ALONE was not enough, you should ALSO consider performance/$. you phrase it as if I was wrong, rather you should make it inclusionary... that is, its pure performance, performance/$, AND features that matter.

uh huh, so if min is 29 fps on, say, 6970 but it's 28 fps on sli gtx 580 you would still automatically go with the 6970??? that doesn't make any sense. what if you spend 15 seconds at 29 fps and 45 seconds at 40 fps on 6970, while the gtx 580 sli setup spends 1 tiny blip at 28 but the rest of the time at 70fps??? min fps means nothing without a graph and also an explanation of the methodology used.
 

shangshang

Senior member
May 17, 2008
830
0
0
It is called "grasping at straws" Shangshang, and it seems to be getting worse with each new nV release...

what was amazing was that there was even a freakin poll put up about it too: should Anand have included the 460 FTW edition. lol.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
Makes sense. Why test a $500 GTX580 / HD5970 on a 1280x1024 $90 monitor? The majority of gamers who are buying $500 videocards are probably running at least 1920x1080. With PC gaming graphics stangating imo since Crysis (2007), even mid-range cards today such as HD6870 or GTX470 are capable of smooth gameplay at 1920x1080.

Interestingly enough Hardware Heaven actually dropped 2560x1600 resolution when testing multiple videocards citing the fact that HD5870CF/GTX580 SLI setups are more likely to be used with multiple monitors due to the power reserve. They have added some results of 5760x1080.



Ironically that is the truth. $190 HD6850 is no faster than the cheaper $170 715mhz GTX460. Similarly, a $250 HD6870 is no faster than the cheaper $220 850mhz GTX460. If AMD produces a 950mhz pre-factory overclocked HD6850 tomorrow for $230, and you can readily buy it in your home market, it should be included in the review when GTX560 launches.

yes, but you're not going to get much of an oc out of an ftw gtx 460. if you're going that route then you're better off buying a stock gtx 460 AR version and oc'ing the hell out of it b/c you'll get the lifetime warranty and be eligible for stepup. paying $50 extra for a factory oc'd card is stupid unless you are getting better cooling/significantly higher oc's out of it.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
Forget *policy* for a second here - I as a reader want as much information as possible, give me a real reason why I, the reader shouldn't be allowed to see a review containing both a stock and an o/c 460 card as well as the 6800's.

Are you saying I'm too thick to work out it's o/c and I might get *confused* into buying an nvidia card? Does it give too many lines in the figures and mean I am unable to see the ati cards due to there being too many cards reviewed? What?

All I've heard is a technicality, which using common sense doesn't apply in this case.

As for the outrage - I think you'll find the only people who were *outraged* were a bunch of sad fan boys who need to grow up and realise amd, nvidia, intel, whoever really don't care about them beyond the money they spend. If they want to put their heart and soul into defending something they should pick something that really matters. In the mean time I hope anandtech ignores them and writes for the people who just want a comprehensive review of graphics cards so they can pick which one they want to buy next.

it was a poor decision because they would not have even considered it if nvidia hadn't asked for them to do it in the first place. they are setting themselves up to get hammered by oc nvidia/amd cards every time the other guys launch a card now. it would be much more informative for them to simply purchase a stock card for a review and a stock card from the competition, then oc each to its limit. that could have its own separate page in the review, and those of us who like overclocking could jump there to see if it's a good oc'er or not.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
Jail bait?

if he is 35 she will be 18. so not necessarily... but interesting that he would share it in such a manner.

uh huh, so if min is 29 fps on, say, 6970 but it's 28 fps on sli gtx 580 you would still automatically go with the 6970???
Yes, because (in that hypothetical example) the 6970 is providing superior real world performance (min FPS) than the sli 580.

that doesn't make any sense. what if you spend 15 seconds at 29 fps and 45 seconds at 40 fps on 6970, while the gtx 580 sli setup spends 1 tiny blip at 28 but the rest of the time at 70fps??? min fps means nothing without a graph and also an explanation of the methodology used.

That single blip? every it it happens it will ruin my gameplay. I want smoothness, that means that FPS can't drop below a certain point.
 
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HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,759
1,455
136
Yes, because the 6970 is providing superior real world performance (min FPS) than the sli 580.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, and a million times wrong. Minimum FPS is a meaningless, confusing number that has been misused by almost every review site, including Anandtech which should know better. I don't care if a Video card has a minimum frame rate of 1 FPS if it only hits that once at the beginning of a level and stays above 60FPS the rest of the time. On the other hand, if a card drops down to 15 FPS regularly you will have a poor gameplay experience. Minimum FPS does not matter *at all* since there is no way to tell if it is a significant value or not. What does matter is a graph of frame rate over time, since you can tell both the number and the extent of FPS drops for both cards. If you want all of that distilled into a single number, then standard deviation is a much better measure of frame stability.
 

Skurge

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2009
5,195
1
71
Wrong, wrong, wrong, and a million times wrong. Minimum FPS is a meaningless, confusing number that has been misused by almost every review site, including Anandtech which should know better. I don't care if a Video card has a minimum frame rate of 1 FPS if it only hits that once at the beginning of a level and stays above 60FPS the rest of the time. On the other hand, if a card drops down to 15 FPS regularly you will have a poor gameplay experience. Minimum FPS does not matter *at all* since there is no way to tell if it is a significant value or not. What does matter is a graph of frame rate over time, since you can tell both the number and the extent of FPS drops for both cards. If you want all of that distilled into a single number, then standard deviation is a much better measure of frame stability.

+5

Good on [H] for using graphs.
 

Daedalus685

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2009
1,386
1
0
Wrong, wrong, wrong, and a million times wrong. Minimum FPS is a meaningless, confusing number that has been misused by almost every review site, including Anandtech which should know better. I don't care if a Video card has a minimum frame rate of 1 FPS if it only hits that once at the beginning of a level and stays above 60FPS the rest of the time. On the other hand, if a card drops down to 15 FPS regularly you will have a poor gameplay experience. Minimum FPS does not matter *at all* since there is no way to tell if it is a significant value or not. What does matter is a graph of frame rate over time, since you can tell both the number and the extent of FPS drops for both cards. If you want all of that distilled into a single number, then standard deviation is a much better measure of frame stability.

/applause

But Folks have been arguing for reviews to use STDEV for ages now with no one doing it as of yet. I continue to be frustrated with the reviews that show minimum and maximum without a graph over time though...
 

digitaldurandal

Golden Member
Dec 3, 2009
1,828
0
76
/applause

But Folks have been arguing for reviews to use STDEV for ages now with no one doing it as of yet. I continue to be frustrated with the reviews that show minimum and maximum without a graph over time though...

Too many people would not understand it. What they could do as a compromise is show % of time spent under 30 fps in a comparison and % of time >= 60 fps.
 

Daedalus685

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2009
1,386
1
0
Too many people would not understand it. What they could do as a compromise is show % of time spent under 30 fps in a comparison and % of time >= 60 fps.

I don;t think the community who actually reads the reviews would have that difficult of a time understanding the concept would they? We are talking high school math here. Don't answer that.. It always just depresses me.

At any rate.. pretty pictures at the least. Minimum FPS means nothing without context.
 

SolMiester

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2004
5,330
17
76
So, ummmmm, have we concluded that the NDA lift is 22/12?, which would mean its too late for Xmas?
 

betasub

Platinum Member
Mar 22, 2006
2,677
0
0
Thread title doesn't specify the month, but was based on early speculation about November 22.
 

cusideabelincoln

Diamond Member
Aug 3, 2008
3,274
41
91
697009.jpg
697010.jpg

Their new "power containment" on architecture is very interesting. Sounds like NV throttling "power viruses".

Yes it does sound interesting, but I think it might go beyond just power viruses.

I wonder if it's able to more finely control performance and power mid-game, for optimal efficiency. This feature could cut back power consumption when a game isn't utilizing all of the shaders or when you're limited by some other factor. As such, and as I stated at the GTX 580 launch, more reviewers should start testing average power draw (over a game session) along with idle and peak draw. And a graph would be nice too, but I doubt that will happen as most reviews don't even have framerate graphs.

And on a related note, I wonder when (and if) we're going to be seeing performance limiters put in place (in the drivers). My idea is one of an optional feature that would limit the performance of a video card (maybe a framerate cap, that you would be able to define) to cut back on power usage when you don't really need the extra performance. Like say if a game can run at 200 fps, the drivers will limit the card's performance ability (and thus power consumption) so that it only outputs 100 fps. This will need to be dynamic, as the performance requirements of games are dynamic. It would quickly activate and deactivate/limit parts of the GPU to cut back on power. Although this does sound pretty advanced so it might be some time before we see it. However I could see user-defined power schemes, like assigning a game through a profile to only use half of the GPU resources and the other half is shut down for that game.

Of course this needs to be an optional feature, preferably programmable too, so that competitive gamers won't lose the performance they're expecting. But someday I see this kind of idea being implemented for the more casual gamers and single-player experiences.
 
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