NC Senate passes Fracking Law that Criminizales informing public of chemicals used

[Fern]

This is probably only my 2nd or 3rd ever P&N thread, so please be gentle. This is an issue that has finally pissed me off to the point where it looks like I will finally get involved.

Story:



http://www.charlotteobserver.com/20...ll-that-would.html#.U33UBpDD_MI#storylink=cpy



Transalation: STFU hippies! If you pass out leaflets to the public or post on your internet blogs any factual information about what we're doing, your ass is going to jail!



Transalation: Local cities and towns - STFU and stay out of way. You have no voice or any right to decide whether you want this in your town. STFU!

The absolute arrogance and hubris exhibited by the backers of the bill is enabled by the unlimited money in politics post Citizens United. These a-holes are beholden only to money, and they know the average working person is powerless to fight them. So STFU and get out of the way.

I am so dismayed by this. I saw it coming, but now that it's here, I don't even have the satisfaction of I told you so.

1. This has nothing to do at all with Citizens United.

2. The bill sets up state boards to establish rules on fracking (actually the first set of rules will be done by the existing N.C. Mining and Energy Commission). This is where regulation belongs - at the state level - not county commissioners who are inexperienced in such matters. We wouldn't have a fracking industry if county commissioners could control it. I've lived here for +20 years and water rights etc with our neighboring county were fought over when I arrived. They're still being fought over. How did that happen? One set of commissioners in the other country were eventually replaced and the new set voided their (county) law agreement with mine. Any industry would be insane to put with control at the county level.

3. Proprietary info is just that - proprietary. It's not like the state regulatory bodies won't be informed.

The bill hasn't passed yet either. Last year the Repub controlled House voted to keep the moratorium in place.

What I see is people who oppose fracking getting hysterical. Other's who want to bring jobs to NC are working to get fracking allowed here and make investment in this state attractive.

Fern

 

[zinfamous]

I love this state - but the decisions by our GA and governer the last few years.... horrifying.

I drive across NC to go to OBX a couple times every year. That drive will be littered with Fracking wells within the next 5 years - a constant reminder that we are poisoning the ground and our water supply. More and more I know what it's like to be a bitter old man.

Is pokerguy normally for this type of thing? If so, that was a nice honest reality check, and it's appreciated. I don't know how anyone who styles themselves as small/local govt oriented (over big gov) can be for the extreme measures in this bill.

And also, I'm a realist/pragmatist. We do need energy. But there are other avenues of energy famring and job creation that are not so destructive to our land and health. I'd much prefer we (NC) pursue more solar, wind, hydroelectric, and natural gas from renewable sources. Lord knows the eastern part of the state can probably generate at least a city's worth of energy demand from the animal droppings alone. It's a nasty enterprise, but I wouldn't begrudge the provider a healthy $$ for doing it.

Plenty have been trying to harvest the methane escaping from the vast hog shit lagoons of the eastern part of the state for many years now. Hell, my dad spent the better part of a decade trying to work on a a waste mitigation project (bacterial digestion/energy conversion), but not much panned out. The theory is nice--One large farmer's lagoons could potentially power a small municipality--but putting this into practice has proved extremely difficult, and not much has come of it despite the years of testing various rubber linings, bubbles, energy transportation.

SO, I don't know...would you rather the chicken shit smell in the west, the hogshit smell in the east, or vast swaths of fracking sites dumping their runoff into the drinking water?

I, for one, appreciate the charm of our smelly southeastern part of the state--sure as SHIT don't want to deal with fucking frackers moving in and poisoning the water. I'm considering moving back, and it would be a horrible thing to see this kind of wretched abuse of government overreach destroy the state.

And another thing--anyone that defines the anti-fracking crowd as simple "job haters" is absurdly naive.

 

[werepossum]

I'm sorry but crap you pump into the ground shouldn't be considered confidential and protected from public view.

This, exactly. If we don't know what they are pumping into the ground, we'll have a much harder time determining if and when it comes out where it should not. Anything pumped into/onto the ground, or released into the atmosphere, or dumped into water needs to be a matter of public record. This provision is simply insane, stupid and short sighted.

It was the democrat controlled state legislature before them that outlawed local municipalities from setting up their own ISP/content provider... After millions of dollars from Time Warner, Comcast, AT&T, etc flowed into their wallets.

Is either party worse than the other? Doubtful.

I agree with the bolded, but certainly both parties are trying their damnedest to be worse than the other.

Assuming such a use is allowed by state law already then really the only governments that would have to approve would be the city and/or county level. Most likely in this case only county approval would be required. One layer of approval is not onerous for anyone who is serious.

If a country decides to prohibit drilling in their jurisdiction it should be their decision. If the residents of that county disagree they can elect different officials.

Agreed. Counties (and towns) can have vastly different needs and water systems. What might be a jobs boon to one county might be a jobs killer to another county, or endanger a threatened species. At the worst, having two sets of politicians to bribe would benefit the local economy as well as possibly stopping the most egregious damage - or at least making it more expensive.

 

[werepossum]

Plenty have been trying to harvest the methane escaping from the vast hog shit lagoons of the eastern part of the state for many years now. Hell, my dad spent the better part of a decade trying to work on a a waste mitigation project (bacterial digestion/energy conversion), but not much panned out. The theory is nice--One large farmer's lagoons could potentially power a small municipality--but putting this into practice has proved extremely difficult, and not much has come of it despite the years of testing various rubber linings, bubbles, energy transportation.

SO, I don't know...would you rather the chicken shit smell in the west, the hogshit smell in the east, or vast swaths of fracking sites dumping their runoff into the drinking water?

I, for one, appreciate the charm of our smelly southeastern part of the state--sure as SHIT don't want to deal with fucking frackers moving in and poisoning the water. I'm considering moving back, and it would be a horrible thing to see this kind of wretched abuse of government overreach destroy the state.

And another thing--anyone that defines the anti-fracking crowd as simple "job haters" is absurdly naive.

Not much can kill a stream as quickly and as thoroughly as a hog shit lagoon wall collapsing.

Although a copper refinery/acid production plant without proper controls and mitigation equipment beats it by a couple orders of magnitude . . .

 

[Oldgamer]

Is this law really even legal? Chemicals have to be defined in their MSDS sheets and MSDS sheets must be made available at the job site for all chemicals used. Hiding the identity of the chemicals would be against federal law.

yea but isn't this just for their employees though? Or does this mean they need to do this for the public as well?

 

[nehalem256]

1. This has nothing to do at all with Citizens United.

2. The bill sets up state boards to establish rules on fracking (actually the first set of rules will be done by the existing N.C. Mining and Energy Commission). This is where regulation belongs - at the state level - not county commissioners who are inexperienced in such matters. We wouldn't have a fracking industry if county commissioners could control it. I've lived here for +20 years and water rights etc with our neighboring county were fought over when I arrived. They're still being fought over. How did that happen? One set of commissioners in the other country were eventually replaced and the new set voided their (county) law agreement with mine. Any industry would be insane to put with control at the county level.

And this exactly why certain people want fracking to be controlled at the county level. And if the county allows well then it should be controlled at the city level. And if the city allows it then the neighborhood watch should control it.

What I see is people who oppose fracking getting hysterical. Other's who want to bring jobs to NC are working to get fracking allowed here and make investment in this state attractive.

Who needs jobs and affordable energy when you can just have the government give it to you for "free"?

 

[Thebobo]

1. This has nothing to do at all with Citizens United.

2. The bill sets up state boards to establish rules on fracking (actually the first set of rules will be done by the existing N.C. Mining and Energy Commission). This is where regulation belongs - at the state level - not county commissioners who are inexperienced in such matters. We wouldn't have a fracking industry if county commissioners could control it. I've lived here for +20 years and water rights etc with our neighboring county were fought over when I arrived. They're still being fought over. How did that happen? One set of commissioners in the other country were eventually replaced and the new set voided their (county) law agreement with mine. Any industry would be insane to put with control at the county level.

3. Proprietary info is just that - proprietary. It's not like the state regulatory bodies won't be informed.

The bill hasn't passed yet either. Last year the Repub controlled House voted to keep the moratorium in place.

What I see is people who oppose fracking getting hysterical. Other's who want to bring jobs to NC are working to get fracking allowed here and make investment in this state attractive.

Fern

You are right its Americans for Prosperity.

If you are pumping chemicals into the ground an aquifer and its watershed the public has a right to know what they are. I think if they dropped that part of the law it might go better and don't think that will hold up in court.

 

[Thebobo]

yea but isn't this just for their employees though? Or does this mean they need to do this for the public as well?

It has to be posted at the site, no sure beyond that.

 

[Zorba]

3. Proprietary info is just that - proprietary. It's not like the state regulatory bodies won't be informed.

And it should be a felony to disclose legally obtained proprietary data? Proprietary data is disclosed everyday. In the Airline world there is a huge industry of reverse engineering parts, including using other people's proprietary information, like metal alloys. All blessed by the FAA, called Part Manufacturer Approval.

 

[Zorba]

yea but isn't this just for their employees though? Or does this mean they need to do this for the public as well?

Everyone on site has to have access to it and first responders, not sure beyond that. But you can find the MSDS for every chemical online, so if you knew the brand name or nick name you could find it online.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Not much can kill a stream as quickly and as thoroughly as a hog shit lagoon wall collapsing.

Although a copper refinery/acid production plant without proper controls and mitigation equipment beats it by a couple orders of magnitude . . .

I wasn't thinking of lagoons, though apparently that's how it's been done there. I've seen several composting type sites in the midwest where they process cow manure. It's all self contained in storage tanks, and a central composting unit. I do not believe it touches the ground or water supply.

It's a tough business. But so was going to the moon. I am sure we can figure it out if we really want to.

 

[TheAdvocate]

1. This has nothing to do at all with Citizens United.

It has everything to do with the post Citizens political landscape. These politicians spend the majority of their time not legislating and seeking compromise, but instead fundraising. With the caps all but removed on contributions, they are bought and sold by companies with lobbying groups such as the pro-fracking industry. This bill is every bit the product of this completely undemocratic process. You have one industry shoving their will down the collective throat of the citizens of NC, whether they want it or not. Hell, there are for certain some folks here who aren't even necessarily anti-fracking, but they are absolutely against the extremse self interest provisions being put forth in that bill. It reminds me of the Tobacco industry exempting their facilities from non-smoking bans in NC. I haven't looked it up in ages, but I think that was N.C.G.S. Article 64 § 143-599 (7). Certainly not anywhere near the same scale as egregious, but just as self interested.

The bill hasn't passed yet either. Last year the Repub controlled House voted to keep the moratorium in place.

If I recall correctly, they only did so as a compromise until "safety standards" could be codified. The same safety standards that the industry is now trying to beat to implementation. Unregulated, grandfathered fracking wells, protected from local govts and criminalizing the key component of demonstrator publicity. Sounds like an awesome idea.

 

[zinfamous]

Not much can kill a stream as quickly and as thoroughly as a hog shit lagoon wall collapsing.

Although a copper refinery/acid production plant without proper controls and mitigation equipment beats it by a couple orders of magnitude . . .

Oh it's not really streams that are the biggest problems with hog pooh--It's the rivers (Neuse and Cape Fear), and the sounds.
But, we've adapted to swimming with diatoms.

:hmm:

 

[WackyDan]

Nope.
And nope.


Confirmed.

NVM - wires crossed.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Everyone on site has to have access to it and first responders, not sure beyond that. But you can find the MSDS for every chemical online, so if you knew the brand name or nick name you could find it online.

In any case it's ridiculous. I'm in healthcare and no one wants secrets kept more than pharma, but if people weren't allowed to know what they were taking? Hellfire would justifiably fall. No manufacturing or production process need be given out but that's it and it works for everyone in my field.

 

[Fern]

It has everything to do with the post Citizens political landscape. These politicians spend the majority of their time not legislating and seeking compromise, but instead fundraising. With the caps all but removed on contributions, they are bought and sold by companies with lobbying groups such as the pro-fracking industry. This bill is every bit the product of this completely undemocratic process. You have one industry shoving their will down the collective throat of the citizens of NC, whether they want it or not. Hell, there are for certain some folks here who aren't even necessarily anti-fracking, but they are absolutely against the extremse self interest provisions being put forth in that bill. It reminds me of the Tobacco industry exempting their facilities from non-smoking bans in NC. I haven't looked it up in ages, but I think that was N.C.G.S. Article 64 § 143-599 (7). Certainly not anywhere near the same scale as egregious, but just as self interested.

You speak of campaign contributions to politicians above. Citizens United has no effect whatsoever on contributions to political campaigns. None.

Citizens United was about PAC money (e.g., 527 orgs). Politicians can not haqve contact etc with PACs.

If I recall correctly, they only did so as a compromise until "safety standards" could be codified. The same safety standards that the industry is now trying to beat to implementation. Unregulated, grandfathered fracking wells, protected from local govts and criminalizing the key component of demonstrator publicity. Sounds like an awesome idea.

I don't understand your comment about "unregulated, grandfathered fracking wells". It's my understanding we have no fracking here at this time. None.

If people could be bothered to actually read the article (not referring to you here) they'd see the same issue about standards and regulations is happening again now.

Limiting disclosure of fluids used in fracking doesn't seem unique: http://cleanwater.org/page/fracking-laws-and-loopholes

At present the only reason I can see to make disclosure against the law is to prevent state employees involved from doing so. If that's the case it implies the state intends to be informed about the formula for regulatory purposes.

Fern

 

[Spungo]

Everyone on site has to have access to it and first responders, not sure beyond that. But you can find the MSDS for every chemical online, so if you knew the brand name or nick name you could find it online.

The MSDS is not required to say exactly what is in something. Warning labels often say vague things like "contains alkyl phosphates."

I won't bother to read the article posted in the OP because it's probably retarded. I'm guessing retard environmentalists are doing something illegal and politicians are responding with broad laws that could have a ton of negative consequences.

 

[brycejones]

The MSDS is not required to say exactly what is in something. Warning labels often say vague things like "contains alkyl phosphates."

I won't bother to read the article posted in the OP because it's probably retarded. I'm guessing retard environmentalists .

I'm not going to bother to read anymore of your post probably because it is retarded.

 

[TheAdvocate]

You speak of campaign contributions to politicians above. Citizens United has no effect whatsoever on contributions to political campaigns. None.

Citizens United was about PAC money (e.g., 527 orgs). Politicians can not haqve contact etc with PACs.

This is why I rarely post here. I never said this was the specific holding of Citizens United. I only referred to the post Citizens political contributions environment.

If you need a primer, start here: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/03/supreme-court-mccutcheon-citizens-united

I am not writing a memo on the revisions to campaign finance laws beginning with Buckley v Valeo, Citizens or any of their progeny. Mostly because I dont want to, but also because I usually charge for that.

I don't understand your comment about "unregulated, grandfathered fracking wells". It's my understanding we have no fracking here at this time.

Thanks for your faux concern. If you cannot comprehend that the companies intend to start drilling before the establishment of safety standards, and that is exactly the maneuvering going on right now, then you are a lost cause and/or purposefully ignorant. Either way, it is no longer worth my time or attention.

 

[MtnMan]

Party doesn't matter, just a bunch of corrupt whores that will do anything for the right price. Only problem is that they ain't the ones getting screwed, the rest of us are.

Solution: Term limits for every elected office from city hall to Congress.

 

[Fern]

This is why I rarely post here. I never said this was the specific holding of Citizens United. I only referred to the post Citizens political contributions environment.

If you need a primer, start here: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/03/supreme-court-mccutcheon-citizens-united

I am not writing a memo on the revisions to campaign finance laws beginning with Buckley v Valeo, Citizens or any of their progeny. Mostly because I dont want to, but also because I usually charge for that.

Citizens United has nothing to do with, unless you can show otherwise. I.e., you shown no connection.

The articles I have seen either freak about the 'new' money or have disproven it. The increase in election money tracks almost perfectly with the historical trend and the number of large public companies contributing is virtually zero.

If someone wants to claim the politicians are going to allow fracking to garner campaign contributions, fine. But that has nothing to do with Citizens United which is only about PACs and doesn't affect limitations on campaign contributions as far as I can tell.

Thanks for your faux concern. If you cannot comprehend that the companies intend to start drilling before the establishment of safety standards, and that is exactly the maneuvering going on right now, then you are a lost cause and/or purposefully ignorant. Either way, it is no longer worth my time or attention.

The article says otherwise. The holdup in the House is the lack of regulations etc. In any case, it's unreasonable to expect that all regulations are final before a vote. Things don't work that way, never have. E.g., regulations are still being issued for everything form Obamacare to Frank-Dodd. The law is passed with Congress expressing its intent and govt agencies are tasked with drafting the detailed regs.

Fern