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Navy has fewest ships since before World War I

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Odoacer

Senior member
Jun 30, 2001
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Originally posted by: MadRat
Quite frankly the navies of the world are all becoming smaller. Even the merchant fleets are shrinking because bigger but fewer ships can handle trade more efficiently than smaller and more numerous fleets. As components for equipment shrink, both civilian and military ships should decreas from the mid-1980's peak. Numbers of ships do not necessarily mean more capability, as even the lowly destroyers can carry the most sophisticated radars afloat. Computer management of cargo has streamlined the distribution networks and made organizing offloading a relatively non-issue when ships reach their destinations.

Why spend $1 billion+ per warship when a $1 million missile or $100k torpedo can penetrate its defenses and send it to the bottom? Sure the world is covered 70% by water, but its also covered 100% by air. Removing the spending base from the Navy ship building budgets and moving more money into the Air Force and Navy for increasingly capble warplanes just makes sound sense for the long term.
I agree with your first paragrah.
But for the second, I recommend looking up the AEGIS system. With our sonar and the amount of screening our near-invisible subs can do, a torpedo attack is HIGHLY unlikely. Besides, who's gonna attack us? ;)

 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,607
3
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I understand the premise of the Aegis system. Its pretty outdated actually. Originally it was bourne with the simple mating of the standard SAM system with the SPY-1 radar, which originally required mounting it on the largest of the large, fleet cruiser size ships. Its been scaled down to destroyers, but similar systems can now be done even on vessels the size of coast guard cutters. Basically the older guided missile ships relied on physically steered search and tracking systems whereas the new systems are electronically automated and can be steered without moving the focal array. Add in the vertical launch boxes for missiles, the addition of the GPS system to every fighting unit, modern millimeter wave radars fitting into all but the smallest weapons, incredibly small yet powerful computer systems, and the standardization of the datalinks between weapons systems. The missile technology itself has been scaled down considerably, too, with the RIM system being the application of this technology to the CIWS level. Basically what once was the Aegis system has evolved into the meshing of multiple layers in defense and assembling this information to form a God's eye view battle while automatically being able to counter threats with an appropriately-scaled response.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: MadRat
Originally posted by: smashp
The navy is looking into building less ships and into building "Floating bases"
Bases that would be driven to where needed. No joke.

Think about it though
And your source is 1984...
Actually this is an idea the navy is kicking around...
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,491
3,252
126
Of course behind all this Navy worry is fear. I demand to feel safe. I will not go into therapy and discover that my fears are the result of childhood trauma. No I'm much too spoiled and afraid for that. No no no. Now I want the world to be my cocoon where I can feel save. I want to be surrounded by guns and knives and all sorts of weapons of mass destruction because any closet could have a Bogey man. I demand that the world adjust to my neurosis.
 
Jan 12, 2003
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam

I will not go into therapy and discover that my fears are the result of childhood trauma.

You are not to blame, Moonie...you are not to blame. He was an evil man and should not have done that to you.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
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Originally posted by: CubicZirconia
Originally posted by: Colt45
more ekranoplans
Those are some wacky looking planes. The one with the 2 racks of engines looks insane. I wish I could read Russian (and less I know you can translate it online, but still).
History Channel broadcast a rather insightful special on the 'Ekranoplan' earlier this year. They coupled the report with another about Russian naval employment of Porpoises in underwater ops. Ver-r-ry interesting.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,491
3,252
126
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: Moonbeam

I will not go into therapy and discover that my fears are the result of childhood trauma.

You are not to blame, Moonie...you are not to blame. He was an evil man and should not have done that to you.
Galt, you doubtless think yourself a cleaver dude, but I been through the mill so many times there's nothing left. Your bright retort is for me as old and warn out as time. I heard it a million times. It's the normal robotic response from those new to this truth. I am for you at a depth you cannot imagine, but don't fret. I'm a nobody and I'm on your side. Truth is for those who can use it. Oh man, I think I'll go out in the sun. The meadow lark is singing and the breeze is sweet. Heat radiates from the ground. My tulips and narcissis bulbs just planted, need a drink. Ah the sky is pale pale blue. What a wonderful day. You're not to blame either but you don't know and you don't want to know you don't know.

Did ye but suffer ye would not suffer. A saying attributed to Jesus.

 
Jan 12, 2003
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam


You're not to blame either but you don't know and you don't want to know you don't know.

Nice :) ...reminiscent of Hegel:

?What is well-known is not necessarily known merely because it is well-known.?


 

308nato

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2002
2,674
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"Oh man, I think I'll go out in the sun. The meadow lark is singing and the breeze is sweet. Heat radiates from the ground. My tulips and narcissis bulbs just planted, need a drink. Ah the sky is pale pale blue. What a wonderful day."

Moonie, why don't you come on out to the farm, harvest is in full swing. We are going to finish up the soybeans today and switch to corn. nothing is better for the soul (mine anyway) than harvest time. Bright beautiful sun during the day and crisp clear starry nights envelope you out in the fields.

Reap the fruits of yet another years dreams. Oh, man you would love it.
 

CubicZirconia

Diamond Member
Nov 24, 2001
5,193
0
71
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: CubicZirconia
Originally posted by: Colt45
more ekranoplans
Those are some wacky looking planes. The one with the 2 racks of engines looks insane. I wish I could read Russian (and less I know you can translate it online, but still).
History Channel broadcast a rather insightful special on the 'Ekranoplan' earlier this year. They coupled the report with another about Russian naval employment of Porpoises in underwater ops. Ver-r-ry interesting.
Dang, I missed that. They generally rerun everything they produce, so it should be on again eventually. I'll keep an eye out for it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,491
3,252
126
Originally posted by: 308nato
"Oh man, I think I'll go out in the sun. The meadow lark is singing and the breeze is sweet. Heat radiates from the ground. My tulips and narcissis bulbs just planted, need a drink. Ah the sky is pale pale blue. What a wonderful day."

Moonie, why don't you come on out to the farm, harvest is in full swing. We are going to finish up the soybeans today and switch to corn. nothing is better for the soul (mine anyway) than harvest time. Bright beautiful sun during the day and crisp clear starry nights envelope you out in the fields.

Reap the fruits of yet another years dreams. Oh, man you would love it.
Wonderful wonderful, I'm already love it through your eyes.

 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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Yahoo
LONDON (Reuters) - Sonar may cause a type of decompression sickness in whales and dolphins similar to the "bends" in humans, scientists said on Wednesday.

Both low and mid-frequency sonar have been linked to whale strandings.

"It is widely accepted that there is a link between naval sonar use and mass strandings, predominately of big whales; what hasn't been fully understood is what the mechanism would be," Jepson added.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,159
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Originally posted by: Lucky
Originally posted by: dpm
Originally posted by: Lucky
yeah, planes.
While you can team up a plane with a ship, you can't replace a ship with a plane.
<STRONG>edit</STRONG> But you could combine them, and have an <a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.aether.demon.co.uk/coolkit/ekranoplan.html" target=blank>ekranoplan</A>!

my point was that ships used to be used more substantially in troop transport. now it's possible, through both military and commercially chartered planes to move mass numbers of troops and small equipment that formerly would require ships.
You really need to look at some modern operations and do a detailed examination of logistics. While airlift can move large amounts of troops and cargo relative to what was formerly capable, sealift is still BY FAR the method used to move military units around the world, particularly heavy units that rely on vehicles. One heavy tank platoon would require four of our largest aircraft to move it (1 tank per plane), and that kind of committment of airpower is simply unsustainable. Furthermore, close, friendly airbases with adequate facilities are not always located at a contingency site, and even if a runway is capable of accepting heavy cargo aircraft, the support facilities for them must be built from scratch.

I understand the premise of the Aegis system. Its pretty outdated actually.
Again, you match seemingly cogent understanding with blatant ignorance. You mention that the AEGIS system can be mounted on a destroyer and imply that it can be put on smaller ships -- do you even know the differences between the Ticongeroga and Arleigh Burke classes?

LONDON (Reuters) - Sonar may cause a type of decompression sickness in whales and dolphins similar to the "bends" in humans, scientists said on Wednesday.

Both low and mid-frequency sonar have been linked to whale strandings.

"It is widely accepted that there is a link between naval sonar use and mass strandings, predominately of big whales; what hasn't been fully understood is what the mechanism would be," Jepson added.
And submarines cause a sudden and catastrophic death for US Navy vessels when our enemies are using them against us. Care to talk about the proliferation of advanced diesel-electric submarines in many of navies of the world?
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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I like diesel . . . especially the German engines. Maybe if Bush would quite picking fights we wouldn't have to worry about those subs. Oh . . . I see . . . bin Laden and Saddam are going to attack America from a submarine.
North Korea can scarcely get a sub out of the South China Sea.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,607
3
76
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: MadRat
Originally posted by: smashp
The navy is looking into building less ships and into building "Floating bases"
Bases that would be driven to where needed. No joke.

Think about it though
And your source is 1984...
Joint Mobile Offshore Base
Sounds like fantasy to me. Nobody would be so brave and foolish at the same time to fit so much material into one nuke target like that. Dispersal of forces and defense in depth is the key to survival on the modern battlefield. Such a massive base invites a quick exit from hostilities.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,607
3
76
btw - AndrewR, put the crack pipe down, dude. You don't have to jump on everything people say about everything. Criticizing the inference that sonar is bad for the whales is naive. Large, active sonars have little wartime value against a capable opponent. The US relies on a massive scale passive system that is far more sensitive than you can imagine. The navy has been caught testing fancy equipment without regard for its effect on mother nature and his point was simply to show a possible link to reports of whale groundings.

Furthermore, you want to battle over every statement made about military hardware. I'm not sure what you want to prove with your statements about the Aegis system, but I'd love for you to say what you want to mean. Maybe I'm the only one that doesn't get your point. So please spell it out...
 

DoubleL

Golden Member
Apr 3, 2001
1,202
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0
a republican saying we need more investment in the military? is this for real???

Now I don't understand that statement at all, I have been in the military most of my life and it has always been the Repubican party building up the military, When their is a cut the Democrates always go to the military first and aften,

 

Colt45

Lifer
Apr 18, 2001
19,722
0
0
Originally posted by: DoubleL
a republican saying we need more investment in the military? is this for real???

Now I don't understand that statement at all, I have been in the military most of my life and it has always been the Repubican party building up the military, When their is a cut the Democrates always go to the military first and aften,
sarcasm meter has gone haywire again hasn't it?
 

Odoacer

Senior member
Jun 30, 2001
809
0
0
Originally posted by: shinerburke

Joint Mobile Offshore Base
Yeah it's a pipe dream, probably. Still, you can't deny the 'cool' factor. I giggled when I saw that first picture. So awesome, really... although I do still think that the current US setup of carrier and amphibious battle groups will be sufficient for the next 10 to 15 years. Marines are light infantry, yes, but all they've got to do is hold the beach until we can bring in the heavy equipment.
 

SilentZero

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2003
5,158
0
76
We don't need to be putting money into building more ships thats for sure. Naval warfare is important, however not the priority in defense spending.
 

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