Nationalized Banks: Why They Might Work - IndyMac Returns to Private Ownership in Only Eight Months

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
I'm sorry, but it's just so damn hard to take anyone screaming "Socialism!" very seriously. After all, they practically scream it at nearly everything they see these days. But on the topic of nationalizing banks, perhaps that's ultimately our best best to stabilize our financial system after those f'ing morons on Wall Street dropped a dirty bomb on our financial system?

We now have a successful model of how to proceed once Geithner's stress test reveals that 2/3* of our biggest banks are insolvent.

(* That's merely my projection, let's see if it's solid...)

Yes, IndyMac was much easier to deal with than say, CitiBank or AIG, but what's our alternative? Throwing $30B or possibly $60B bail-outs at them every other week?

Nationalized Banks: Why They Might Work
By STEPHEN GANDEL Friday, Mar. 06, 2009

IndyMac will soon earn the first half of its name back. The government, which seized the failed bank last summer, is expected to close a deal in the next week that would return the California mortgage lender to private ownership. For IndyMac, the deal means independence in less than eight months. For the government, the IndyMac sale provides a shining example that takeovers can work at a time when the Obama administration may soon begin pushing for more nationalizations.

"The fact that the government ownership of IndyMac is coming to an end in just eight months is successful," says Kevin Stein, a former associate director of resolutions at the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation and an investment banker at FBR Capital Markets. "Nationalization is a tool that has been used in the past and can be effective in the future in certain situations."

A how-to model for nationalizations could prove valuable in the months ahead. The government is in the process of stress testing the nation's largest banks as part of Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner's plan to fix the ailing sector. And many think the outcome of those tests could lead to more takeovers. So far, Geithner and other officials have denied they are interested in running banks. But in the past few weeks, a number of prominent Republicans and fiscal conservatives, most notably former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan and Senator Lindsey Graham, have joined those who think the government should consider nationalizing the most troubled institutions. Bank of America, Citigroup and Wells Fargo could all be candidates for increased government ownership and control.

To be sure, many economists, and Americans in general, remain firmly against the idea. Some aversion relates to the very the word, nationalization, which evokes images of socialist regimes seizing private companies. A recent USA Today-Gallup poll found that 57% of Americans are against "temporarily nationalizing U.S. banks." Yet only 44% oppose a less politically threatening version, "temporarily taking [a bank] over."

But the debate involves more than semantics. One concern is that investors aren't going to want to hold any bank shares if the government can simply seize ownership, effectively rendering the bank's stock worthless or close to it. An even greater concern is that the government won't be able to resell banks it takes over. That would expose taxpayers to big losses and leave Uncle Sam in the banking business for years to come.

The success of IndyMac, though, shows the government can accomplish its goal in a relatively short period of time. That's not the only evidence the Feds know how to hustle. Since the beginning of 2008, the government has seized 41 failed banks. In nearly all of those cases, the FDIC already had buyers lined up for the failed institutions by the time they were taken over. Troubled banks are generally closed on a Friday, and given over to new owners over the weekend. In most cases, the failed bank's branches reopen with a new name on the door the following Monday. The one exception is IndyMac, which the FDIC decided to nationalize, rather than sell off immediately.

Here's how it worked. The FDIC decided to run the bank itself rather than rely on the bank's past managers or hire new ones. So almost immediately after the FDIC took over IndyMac last July, the agency sent over two of its top officials, chief operating officer John Bovenzi and Dallas-based assistant director Rick Hoffman, to Pasadena, California, to run the bank. Bovenzi became IndyMac's CEO. Hoffman took on the role of president. For Bovenzi and Hoffman, cost cutting was high up on their agenda. They slashed the rate the bank was paying on certificates of deposit. Expensive perks were out as well ? the government even sold off the company's Dodgers and Lakers season tickets. A company Porsche fetched $65,000 on Autotrader.com. Also gone is much of the artwork in the elevator lobby, and the high-priced office furniture in now empty cubicles.

But the FDIC also has a public policy mission with IndyMac, which had made many risky mortgage loans. Many of those loans went to borrowers in California, where home prices have fallen sharply. The FDIC tried to show it could keep many of those borrowers in their homes and still turn around the bank. In all, IndyMac modified the loans of more than 10,000 of its borrowers in less than eight months, in many cases eliminating the chance that those borrowers would face foreclosure.

Despite the government's successes, IndyMac also shows that nationalizations can be costly. Last week, the Treasury Department estimated that the IndyMac takeover will end up costing the FDIC nearly $11 billion. Nearly half of those losses came from the actual day-to-day operations of IndyMac, which lost $4.4 billion in the second half of last year.

What's more, IndyMac is only one of four financial firms to have effectively been nationalized during the current financial crisis. Among that group, which also includes Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and AIG, only IndyMac has been returned to private ownership. The others look a long way off from a similar outcome, if at all. Critics of nationalization say that taking over and resolving the issues at a bank like Citigroup, which had hundreds of thousand of employees and businesses spread around the world, would be a much more difficult task than turning around IndyMac, which is a relatively small bank concentrated in the mortgage business.

"IndyMac was a one trick pony," says Bert Ely, a banking consultant. "Citigroup has a whole stable of horses you have to deal with." Nonetheless, IndyMac does provide an example where nationalization worked, suggesting that at least some of the fears critics have of nationalization may be unfounded.

"The risk is you have a nationalized bank that is treated differently by depositors and borrowers because it is owned by the government," says FBR's Stein. "But in the past that risk has been shown to be manageable."
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
I think there is a big difference between taking over a failed bank so as to allow time to work thru the problems and return to private ownership and the taking of a bank as a permanent policy.

I think something like this could work for GM as well. And other banks too some of which you mentioned. I agree also with you that a large number of banks are actually insolvent at this point.

The problem is I have yet to see a coherent plan of action from the admin onhow they are going to fix the financial situation. And the market is reflecting that lack of planning.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: dphantomThe problem is I have yet to see a coherent plan of action from the admin onhow they are going to fix the financial situation. And the market is reflecting that lack of planning.

Do you really think a plan can be developed until we know exactly what we're dealing with? Hence, the "stress tests" of our major financial institutions.

As for the market, as I've said before, who cares? Why should the president (or anyone in office) make plans based on what the market is doing or not doing? Frankly, that's idiotic.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
I'm not sure what IndyMac's balance sheet was, but I'm sure it wasn't as big as Citi's balance sheet is today.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: dphantomThe problem is I have yet to see a coherent plan of action from the admin onhow they are going to fix the financial situation. And the market is reflecting that lack of planning.

Do you really think a plan can be developed until we know exactly what we're dealing with? Hence, the "stress tests" of our major financial institutions.

As for the market, as I've said before, who cares? Why should the president (or anyone in office) make plans based on what the market is doing or not doing? Frankly, that's idiotic.

I think you should care. The market is one of the best indicators of the future and right now it is voting no confidence. Is it always right - well no. But looking at the market can tell those who are not idiots a great deal about where the economy may be headed.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
I don't have an issue with fixing banks and then divesting them. What I have a problem with is Obama & co adding more to the national debt than all previous presidents combined, and with 40% of GDP is now National, State and Local spending. You don't have a problem with that? That's not socialism? What is it?
 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
Originally posted by: alchemize
I don't have an issue with fixing banks and then divesting them. What I have a problem with is Obama & co adding more to the national debt than all previous presidents combined, and with 40% of GDP is now National, State and Local spending. You don't have a problem with that? That's not socialism? What is it?

It a necessary evil... The alternative to spending all this money to keep the banks and AIG etc etc, from going under is to let it all collapse, causing a massive depression, totally destroying the world as we know it.

Obama didnt break it. He is doing what has to be done to fix it. We simply cant let the banks fail... Unless you plan on growing your own food, and hunting your own dinner you should be behind it too.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: alchemize
I don't have an issue with fixing banks and then divesting them. What I have a problem with is Obama & co adding more to the national debt than all previous presidents combined, and with 40% of GDP is now National, State and Local spending. You don't have a problem with that? That's not socialism? What is it?

The free market solution is to let all the banks go under causing the worst depression in the history of mankind.

Gotcha.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
I think we should take a more preemptive approach before nationalizing a bank....namely, instituting an FDR-style 'bank holiday' for each of the national banks so we can identify problems, straighten things out, and reopen in private hands... this might go a long way to restore confidence. Nationalizing banks should be a last resort, and on a case-by-case basis.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,749
6,319
126
Originally posted by: alchemize
I don't have an issue with fixing banks and then divesting them. What I have a problem with is Obama & co adding more to the national debt than all previous presidents combined, and with 40% of GDP is now National, State and Local spending. You don't have a problem with that? That's not socialism? What is it?

No one welcomes all this with open arms. We're just smart enough to place the Blame where it belongs. Obama has no option but to spend shitloads on Bailouts and other attempts to stimulate the Economy.

He'd rather be spending a fraction of that on Programs to Improve things, rather than to just Prop things up.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0

Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: alchemize
I don't have an issue with fixing banks and then divesting them. What I have a problem with is Obama & co adding more to the national debt than all previous presidents combined, and with 40% of GDP is now National, State and Local spending. You don't have a problem with that? That's not socialism? What is it?

The free market solution is to let all the banks go under causing the worst depression in the history of mankind.

Gotcha.

Reading comprehension?
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: dphantomThe problem is I have yet to see a coherent plan of action from the admin onhow they are going to fix the financial situation. And the market is reflecting that lack of planning.

Do you really think a plan can be developed until we know exactly what we're dealing with? Hence, the "stress tests" of our major financial institutions.

As for the market, as I've said before, who cares? Why should the president (or anyone in office) make plans based on what the market is doing or not doing? Frankly, that's idiotic.

I think you should care. The market is one of the best indicators of the future and right now it is voting no confidence. Is it always right - well no. But looking at the market can tell those who are not idiots a great deal about where the economy may be headed.

stock market is a trailing indicator. using the stock market to determine future policy is like a dog trying to find its water bowl by chasing its tail.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
0
Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: alchemize
I don't have an issue with fixing banks and then divesting them. What I have a problem with is Obama & co adding more to the national debt than all previous presidents combined, and with 40% of GDP is now National, State and Local spending. You don't have a problem with that? That's not socialism? What is it?

The free market solution is to let all the banks go under causing the worst depression in the history of mankind.

Gotcha.

Reading comprehension?

You do have a problem with it because if it happened you'd be bitching about spending, like you did in the second half of your reply.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,890
55,156
136
Originally posted by: dphantom

I think you should care. The market is one of the best indicators of the future and right now it is voting no confidence. Is it always right - well no. But looking at the market can tell those who are not idiots a great deal about where the economy may be headed.

Quick note about that: The stock market thought the tech bubble and the housing bubble were great ideas. In times of equilibrium markets are good judges. In times of either great excitement (tech/housing bubble) or great fear (bubbles bursting), markets are absolutely ATROCIOUS judges of the future, because they are behaving irrationally.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Farang
Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: alchemize
I don't have an issue with fixing banks and then divesting them. What I have a problem with is Obama & co adding more to the national debt than all previous presidents combined, and with 40% of GDP is now National, State and Local spending. You don't have a problem with that? That's not socialism? What is it?

The free market solution is to let all the banks go under causing the worst depression in the history of mankind.

Gotcha.

Reading comprehension?

You do have a problem with it because if it happened you'd be bitching about spending, like you did in the second half of your reply.
It IS happening already. Citibank, etc. Go find my posts where I'm bitching about that. /crickets.

 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Farang
Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: alchemize
I don't have an issue with fixing banks and then divesting them. What I have a problem with is Obama & co adding more to the national debt than all previous presidents combined, and with 40% of GDP is now National, State and Local spending. You don't have a problem with that? That's not socialism? What is it?

The free market solution is to let all the banks go under causing the worst depression in the history of mankind.

Gotcha.

Reading comprehension?

You do have a problem with it because if it happened you'd be bitching about spending, like you did in the second half of your reply.
It IS happening already. Citibank, etc. Go find my posts where I'm bitching about that. /crickets.

You're bitching about spending. Do you think bailing out Citi was free? Is going to be free? Why not qualify your talking point then?
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
I don't believe Obama is adding more to the national debt than "all previous presidents combined." That strikes me as total hyperbole.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: dphantom

I think you should care. The market is one of the best indicators of the future and right now it is voting no confidence. Is it always right - well no. But looking at the market can tell those who are not idiots a great deal about where the economy may be headed.

Quick note about that: The stock market thought the tech bubble and the housing bubble were great ideas. In times of equilibrium markets are good judges. In times of either great excitement (tech/housing bubble) or great fear (bubbles bursting), markets are absolutely ATROCIOUS judges of the future, because they are behaving irrationally.

Very good points. Usually, though, we cannot tell until after the fact if the market is acting irrationally or not.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: dphantom
I think there is a big difference between taking over a failed bank so as to allow time to work thru the problems and return to private ownership and the taking of a bank as a permanent policy.

Yes, and I remain very doubtful that this was a case of bank being "nationalized" despite what the author says.

I believe ths was the typical FDIC takes over thingy, not like the plan to nationalize banks being discussed these days.

I have long wondered why Citi and other banks weren't just taken over by the FDIC as usual.

Nonetheless, I found it troubling that this 'success' cost the government $11 Billion; and it's a comparatively small bank next to Citi or BoA etc

Fern
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: dphantom
I think there is a big difference between taking over a failed bank so as to allow time to work thru the problems and return to private ownership and the taking of a bank as a permanent policy.

Yes, and I remain very doubtful that this was a case of bank being "nationalized" despite what the author says.

I believe ths was the typical FDIC takes over thingy, not like the plan to nationalize banks being discussed these days.

I have long wondered why Citi and other banks weren't just taken over by the FDIC as usual.

Nonetheless, I foind it troubling that this 'success' cost the government $11 Billion; and it's a comparatively small bank next to Citi or BoA etc

Fern

That's probably why the FDIC needs 500 billion in funding. I think if the FDIC took over Citibank, they could not cover 100% of the deposits and so many people would lose a lot of money plus initiate a run on banks that could not be stopped without mandatory bank closure (holiday).
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,576
126
AFAIK, INDYMAC was placed into conservatorship, and was not nationalized.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: dphantomThe problem is I have yet to see a coherent plan of action from the admin onhow they are going to fix the financial situation. And the market is reflecting that lack of planning.

Do you really think a plan can be developed until we know exactly what we're dealing with? Hence, the "stress tests" of our major financial institutions.

As for the market, as I've said before, who cares? Why should the president (or anyone in office) make plans based on what the market is doing or not doing? Frankly, that's idiotic.

I think you should care. The market is one of the best indicators of the future and right now it is voting no confidence. Is it always right - well no. But looking at the market can tell those who are not idiots a great deal about where the economy may be headed.

stock market is a trailing indicator. using the stock market to determine future policy is like a dog trying to find its water bowl by chasing its tail.

you fail at stock market