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nasa hacked, disturbing video of war in IRAQ posted!

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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: zimu
all of this reminds me, who watched last samurai?

IF YOU HAVE NOT WATCHED DON'T READ FURTHER





did anyone feel bad in that final scene where the last few samurai charge and all get machine gunned down? did that make you feel anything at all? for me i had this intense hatred for guns at that point. cause in that scene you just feel wow, all that honor, all that courage, that knowing they'll die but not being scared of it, destroyed because of some automated machine that requires so much less in terms of guts to operate. its nearly mechanic to kill people that way, its not the same as digging a sword into their hearts and watching life pass out of their eyes
You're what, 14 or 15 years old, right? If you're any older than that, please kill yourself.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
141
106
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Keep in mind that none of your examples deal with KILLING someone intentionally. You are trying to compare the argument that the soldiers, just as bus drivers and surgeons who perform their job and save lives, shouldn't feel guilty by doing their job right. That soldiers should be proud that they saved lives or protected life, just as the surgeon and bus drivers. These (surgeons and bus drivers) people never killed intentionally to save lives, there is a huge difference!
There is absolutely no difference. Whatever the occupation is, whatever the responsibilities demanded of it, and intended to be accomplished by it, has no bearing at all on how people should be expected to feel about what they do. If the occupation is to kill the enemy in battle, and please don't pretend we are in Tu-Tu wearing fairy land here - killing in battle is what we ask of soldiers - then by God they not only should be good at what they do, but when they discharge their duties as trained, they should not be expected or encouraged to feel contempt for themselves.

My point was that, you don't build an effective fighting force with high morale by teaching soldiers to heap disdain upon themselves, no more than you would expect to produce highly competent doctors by teaching them that they should heap disdain upon themselves. Who would enter such an occupation?

We train and motivate soldiers to give their best effort so they can become very proficient in what they do much in the same way sports teams are trained and motivated to give their best effort so they can become very proficient in what they do. The principle is the same, no matter the 'goal'.
I understand your point, that the military shouldn't teach them to heap disdain upon themselves. Do you really think that this is encouraged? Proof that the military does this please?

My main point is that to expect soldiers not to hate themselves for what they did is unrealistic, which is why we see the cliched "war veteran" character, who can't live with himself b/c of what he did in war, on TV/in movies. Many soldiers may have been given orders to execute someone, and not be bothered by it. Others, especially if there is a morality issue (for instance a woman or child who had a weapon and could be a threat), might be haunted by killing what they perceive as an innocent. It all depends on the person's psyche which is different for everyone. Preventing someone from feeling an emotion is impossible, especially if it was a life changing experience (as mentioned above).

In reference to your comment: "What is interesting is the implicit suggestion by some that soldiers should be trained (indoctrinated) to perceive themselves and what they do as some kind of abomination. " Can you define this better? If by abomination you mean flight or fight response, then yes, soldiers definitely go through this more than a surgeon or bus driver. They may be trained to think rationally in battle, but under gunfire, we all know it's fight or flight. Anyone who's life may be at stake may do things you never thought they would do and yes, become an "abomination", even in their own eyes when they can think rationally again (after the incident has occurred). But your def of abomination wasn't clarified.

 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
17,848
24
81
In reference to your comment: "What is interesting is the implicit suggestion by some that soldiers should be trained (indoctrinated) to perceive themselves and what they do as some kind of abomination. " Can you define this better?
I was not saying it is unreasonable to expect war to be traumatizing. Some people seemed outraged not so much in the fact that soldiers had killed the Iraqi, but that the soldiers seemed to be celebrating it. My point was, how else are they supposed to react upon effectively neutralizing a target, submit to a lashing? Exclaim, "Oh what a terrible thing I've done!"?

Soldiers celebrate their successes, like anyone else on the planet celebrates their successes, and the fact is, one of the tasks/functions/responsibilities at which a soldier "succeeds" is in killing the enemy. Its what they train to do.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
141
106
Originally posted by: tcsenter
In reference to your comment: "What is interesting is the implicit suggestion by some that soldiers should be trained (indoctrinated) to perceive themselves and what they do as some kind of abomination. " Can you define this better?
I was not saying it is unreasonable to expect war to be traumatizing. Some people seemed outraged not so much in the fact that soldiers had killed the Iraqi, but that the soldiers seemed to be celebrating it. My point was, how else are they supposed to react upon effectively neutralizing a target, submit to a lashing? Exclaim, "Oh what a terrible thing I've done!"?

Soldiers celebrate their successes, like anyone else on the planet celebrates their successes, and the fact is, one of the tasks/functions/responsibilities at which a soldier "succeeds" is in killing the enemy. Its what they train to do.
Yup, I think many people expected the soldiers to be PC and say something like "That's what I'm trained to do" and not show any emotion... and when they do show emotion, it's a bad thing now! Wonder what people would think if they could really hear private conversations between soldiers, guaranteed more than just a few people will be offended than this clip. :)

 

dejacky

Banned
Dec 17, 2000
1,598
0
0
I'm against killing a soldier or combatant that is wounded and incapable of fighting. However, this video does not show the entire event. He could have been trying to remote detonate, pick up his rifle to shoot, or continue wiring a bomb, pul a grenade pin, etc...who knows. As for the laughing and cheering, it was something I despised. Again, However, perhaps it was a means for these soldiers to cope through the fighting and intimidate "the enemy." just my thoughts that this is very inconclusive...
 

OCNewbie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2000
7,603
24
81
"Again, However, perhaps it was a means for these soldiers to cope through the fighting...."

It also could be an effort to gain support for something the soldier did who is potentially questioning his action, and trying to avoid guilt, so by his peers cheering him on, the question in the back of his mind on whether what he did was wrong is mostly erased.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,572
3
71
Originally posted by: dejacky
I'm against killing a soldier or combatant that is wounded and incapable of fighting. However, this video does not show the entire event. He could have been trying to remote detonate, pick up his rifle to shoot, or continue wiring a bomb, pul a grenade pin, etc...who knows. As for the laughing and cheering, it was something I despised. Again, However, perhaps it was a means for these soldiers to cope through the fighting and intimidate "the enemy." just my thoughts that this is very inconclusive...
It's very inconclusive. You don't hear the questions being asked to the soldier. You don't see where's the cheering come from. It's definitely edited to give a specific image.
 

RedPickle

Golden Member
Sep 25, 2002
1,973
0
0
If you were out on the battlefield when one of your fellow "brothers" were shot and killed, you no longer view the enemy as "human". This cheering you hear after killing an Iraqi is all due to the psychological aspect of war. This is what happens in a war, whether you like it or not. Its nothing to do with Americans, its called being a person, and being one makes u susceptible to your emotions. This video tells nothing more than what goes on during a war.
 

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