NAFTA hits home

[buckmasterson]

I realize we have all suffered in some way due to NAFTA, but you know, the free trade agreement doesn't matter until it hits home. My most of my In-Laws work for Electrolux. If you own a Fridgidare, Kenmore, White-Westinghouse, Gibson or Kelvinator appliance, it was most likely made in Greenville, Michigan. Electrolux made this announcement on Friday Text


If all the good jobs are going to Mexico, why are their people living in the US illegally?

Let's see, what did Bush say about NAFTA in his address...NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dissipate]

NAFTA doesn't help the situation but I think the unions make it abysmal. It seems to me that now that the company is saying it is going to move to Mexico all the city officials are scrambling to do everything they can to keep them to stay. What they should have done is cut back on the red tape and the union B.S. from the get go. Its not just NAFTA at work here, its government regulations + unions + NAFTA. All three are working together to push factories out of the country.

 

[sandorski]

Unionize Mexicans. NAFTA won't work properly until Mexico's standard of living is raised up closer to that of the US or Canada. The biggest problem though is not Mexico, it is China and other places outside of NAFTA.

 

[dmcowen674]

Sorry for your family Buck but you've heard your fellow AT Economy experts that this is good for America. They were overpaid and had no skills. You heard the President last night "We have to bring our Mexican friends into the U.S. because there is no Americans to fill the Jobs".

So basically they will close the Factory here and possibly re-open it in a few years with the Mexicans that move north and will work for Minimum wage. But don't forget your fellow AT experts also said these Minimum wage jobs are the highest wages ever in this Country so if your family members manage to compete along side a Mexican for that minumum wage job that they will be doing better than ever.

If they don't re-open the Factory Walmart will move into the site like what is happening by me here.

 

[Nietzscheusw]

Kucinich on 10 Years of NAFTA

"My campaign is all about bringing back democracy. And today one of the biggest threats to American democracy is the system of corporate-managed trade that has been imposed on the backs of workers and the environment here in America and throughout the world.

"For a decade, we have been subjected to a grand experiment called NAFTA. When that agreement was signed in 1993, it was enthusiastically supported by big business, Republicans, and all too many Democrats -- including then-Governor Howard Dean, who even attended a NAFTA signing ceremony. Now it is clear that this experiment has failed. We've lost close to 3 million manufacturing jobs since July 2000. Over one half a million of these are directly attributable to NAFTA. Our trade deficit grew to $418 billion last year and continues to climb.

"And, because of the WTO, corporations have been granted unprecedented powers to sue the government in closed trade courts anytime laws designed to protect workers or the environment are deemed to infringe on corporate 'rights.'

"The legislative founding father of the WTO in the House of Representatives was Richard Gephardt. The bill bears his name, and he led the effort to achieve its passage. This surprises many people, since Mr. Gephardt is thought to be a strong supporter of the very workers' rights which the WTO does not permit recognition of. Any government can be taken to secret WTO tribunals over laws that aim to protect the environment and workers.

"Because of the WTO, so-called 'intellectual property' agreements can restrict poor countries' ability to produce and obtain desperately needed medicines for AIDS and other epidemics. The WTO forbids developing nations from regulating multinational corporations that operate within their borders.

"The Bush administration wants to extend NAFTA throughout the Western Hemisphere through the Free Trade Agreement of the Americas (FTAA). This proposal is being pushed by the administration and its Republican allies in Congress and the corporate world. Opposed by genuine progressive leaders throughout Latin America, including Brazilian president Lula DaSilva, the FTAA ministerial will bring thousands of dedicated activists onto the streets of Miami this month to protest.

"The only way to undo the damage these trade deals have caused is to end them. The NAFTA and WTO treaties include legal clauses permitting the signatory countries to withdraw from them at any time, following a routine notification period. As president, I will invoke these withdrawal clauses and once and for all take America out of an unfair system of corporate trade.

"We will return to bilateral trade conditioned on workers' rights, human rights, and environmental quality principles. This will provide security for American workers and for workers worldwide.

"I encourage nonviolent protest to the manifest social and economic injustices which have come about as a result of NAFTA and the WTO and the next generation of corporate trade: the FTAA. We must work to create a world where peace and prosperity is possible and mutually inclusive."

For more information: http://www.kucinich.us/

 

[Medellon]

I'm not sure about the overall impact of NAFTA on the U.S. as a whole but I can tell you that El Paso, Tx. has not benefited from NAFTA at all in my opinion and just may be a wash. We lost just as many if not more jobs than we gained and our city is still one of the poorest in the nation. It upsets me that companies leave the U.S. where they provide a decent if not good living for many factory workers and go to Mexico or China and pay peanuts yet the price of our goods stays the same. It would make sense that if costs(labor) are cut then overall prices should drop but of course that has not happened.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: sandorski
NAFTA won't work properly until Mexico's standard of living is raised up closer to that of the US or Canada.

Agreed. I was against NAFTA and even wrote a paper blasting it. I brought up the standard of living point but the professor was a "one world" guy and disliked my paper and wouldn't acknowledge any of the points I made. The problem now is - we can't just "undo" NAFTA - we have to find a way to fix what it has helped do to our markets and economy. This isn't suddenly a Bush problem, this has been brewing ever since NAFTA was signed.

CkG

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: sandorski
NAFTA won't work properly until Mexico's standard of living is raised up closer to that of the US or Canada.

Agreed. I was against NAFTA and even wrote a paper blasting it. I brought up the standard of living point but the professor was a "one world" guy and disliked my paper and wouldn't acknowledge any of the points I made. The problem now is - we can't just "undo" NAFTA - we have to find a way to fix what it has helped do to our markets and economy. This isn't suddenly a Bush problem, this has been brewing ever since NAFTA was signed.

CkG

I didn't have much of a problem with NAFTA... It weakens the unions' leverage, in turn increases American efficiency, which in turn brings up our level of competition to match the rest of the world... And really, raising the world's standard of living only helps make us safe in the long run - it decreases the number of cave-dwelling goat-screwing Taliban to deal with.

 

[desy]

Yup
we are going to suffer short term pain til the world unscrews itself.
Corporations are global players , Land locked gov'ts simply are not as effective as they used to be now that telecommunications wipes out old barriers
Making vacuums doesn't constitute a good job. Its old world tech we need to be always at the cutting technoligical edge to continuously improve productivety. . .
Cheap labor was what built North America, Time to concentrate on fortress North America looking to the next 100 years.

 

[zephyrprime]

If all the good jobs are going to Mexico, why are their people living in the US illegally?

To do all the bad jobs that still pay 10x times the mexican wage. I find it funny when the president or economist say that "we need those Mexicans to do the jobs no America wants to do". There's simply no such economic thing as a "job that no one wants to do" so long as the wage paid to do it is high enough.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: zephyrprime

If all the good jobs are going to Mexico, why are their people living in the US illegally?

To do all the bad jobs that still pay 10x times the mexican wage. I find it funny when the president or economist say that "we need those Mexicans to do the jobs no America wants to do". There's simply no such economic thing as a "job that no one wants to do" so long as the wage paid to do it is high enough.

Yes, what they mean jobs Americans won't do for minimum wage.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: zephyrprime

If all the good jobs are going to Mexico, why are their people living in the US illegally?

To do all the bad jobs that still pay 10x times the mexican wage. I find it funny when the president or economist say that "we need those Mexicans to do the jobs no America wants to do". There's simply no such economic thing as a "job that no one wants to do" so long as the wage paid to do it is high enough.

Yes, what they mean jobs Americans won't do for minimum wage.

That's a good question. Would it be more accepted or be acceptable at all if they just came out and said the goal in order for America to compete is to get our wages down to 25 cents an hour like the rest of the Countries?

At least that is a more plausible answer than "We need to re-train or workforce," and they don\t say what to re-train the workforce for.

 

[mastertech01]

Nafta, just another program that lunatic Perot campaigned against. Seems many of Ross Perot predictions have come to pass. What a lunatic he was.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: mastertech01
Nafta, just another program that lunatic Perot campaigned against. Seems many of Ross Perot predictions have come to pass. What a lunatic he was.

CkG

 

[chess9]

This sort of thing is happening all over the country. It seems almost every manufacturing job in America could be pulled out of the country in the next 5 years. If that happens, the political landscape is likely to change dramatically.

On a more humorous, but related note, I received an email a few hours ago from a friend. It is a color picture of Mars by the Rover. Over in one corner is a Walmart! Very funny and tragic.

-Robert

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

I live in NC, not far from a small town called Erwin, the former denim capital of the world. There's a bunch of nothing there now, but at least some of those former factory workers can great part time jobs at the Walmart & Lowes that put up shop in the next town over. There's a short atricle if anyone is interested here:

http://www.wral.com/news/2374917/detail.html

The problem with these free trade agreements is that even though on paper they almost always benefit the economies of the countries involved, they do so by benefitting those that least need it and hurting those that can least afford it.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: chess9
This sort of thing is happening all over the country. It seems almost every manufacturing job in America could be pulled out of the country in the next 5 years. If that happens, the political landscape is likely to change dramatically.

On a more humorous, but related note, I received an email a few hours ago from a friend. It is a color picture of Mars by the Rover. Over in one corner is a Walmart! Very funny and tragic.

-Robert

Industrial output of this nation has not really dropped, it just requires far less people to create that output.

 

[buckmasterson]

Originally posted by: mastertech01
Nafta, just another program that lunatic Perot campaigned against. Seems many of Ross Perot predictions have come to pass. What a lunatic he was.

Man are you right about that! Remember "the giant sucking sound"?

NAFTA is an escape route for cheap businesses who don't want to pay a fair wage.

Business use to struggle to make quality at a lower cost. Now they can make junk at a lower cost.

 

[buckmasterson]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
NAFTA doesn't help the situation but I think the unions make it abysmal. It seems to me that now that the company is saying it is going to move to Mexico all the city officials are scrambling to do everything they can to keep them to stay. What they should have done is cut back on the red tape and the union B.S. from the get go. Its not just NAFTA at work here, its government regulations + unions + NAFTA. All three are working together to push factories out of the country.

Let me tell you, unless you are a CEO, the Union is the only reason you make more than $1 an hour right now. Without them, the US would BE Mexico! This is a non-union Manager saying this!!!!

The artical failed to mention that the founder of Meijer's offered the land in Greenville to build a new plant. Free!

 

[NetGuySC]

everyone here is complaining about jobs going overseas, yet we want the absolute lowest price even if it is made in China

We are a country driven by price. Most people could care less if their purchase is costing an american a job, just as long as they get the best price.

WalMart is a perfect example of this. We as Americans has turned them into the largest company in the world, because you can buy almost anything there cheaper than you can by elsewhere. Yet 80% of what they sale is made overseas.

Since 9/11, I just wonder how many US based jobs those flag-waving patriotic WalMart shoppers have costs us?

Does anyone see my point?

We can not supply a descent wage for any business product made with US sweat, if most americans will only buy the cheaper products made with cheap foreign sweat.

Until we, as a country, decide to buy only products made on US soil, no matter the costs, this current trend will continue.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: buckmasterson

Originally posted by: Dissipate
NAFTA doesn't help the situation but I think the unions make it abysmal. It seems to me that now that the company is saying it is going to move to Mexico all the city officials are scrambling to do everything they can to keep them to stay. What they should have done is cut back on the red tape and the union B.S. from the get go. Its not just NAFTA at work here, its government regulations + unions + NAFTA. All three are working together to push factories out of the country.

Let me tell you, unless you are a CEO, the Union is the only reason you make more than $1 an hour right now. Without them, the US would BE Mexico! This is a non-union Manager saying this!!!!

The artical failed to mention that the founder of Meijer's offered the land in Greenville to build a new plant. Free!

No, labor is a product in the economy just like anything else. If firms compete fairly for labor (there is no single firm that has a monopoly on that trade) then unions are not needed. Also, of course the firms must not collude to artificially deflate wages. Unions were needed at one time when there were firms that had a virtual monopoly on the trade or did collude. Now in most cases unions just raise prices for consumers or force companies out of business.

I'm a student now but I worked a minimum wage job for 6 months at one time. My work experience there was not exactly pleasent and so I did kind of gain a sense of sympathy for blue collar workers but this does not deter my beliefs in basic economic principles.

 

[buckmasterson]

Ok, so basically what you're saying is, we should accept the fact that CEO's and their pals are making billions from an underpaid workforce. I'm sure they'll take care of us, out of the kindness of their hearts. Sounds like a right wing set of "basic economic principles" to me. Good luck finding a good paying job son. The Employers are gonna love you.

 

[Nietzscheusw]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: buckmasterson

Originally posted by: Dissipate
NAFTA doesn't help the situation but I think the unions make it abysmal. It seems to me that now that the company is saying it is going to move to Mexico all the city officials are scrambling to do everything they can to keep them to stay. What they should have done is cut back on the red tape and the union B.S. from the get go. Its not just NAFTA at work here, its government regulations + unions + NAFTA. All three are working together to push factories out of the country.

Let me tell you, unless you are a CEO, the Union is the only reason you make more than $1 an hour right now. Without them, the US would BE Mexico! This is a non-union Manager saying this!!!!

The artical failed to mention that the founder of Meijer's offered the land in Greenville to build a new plant. Free!

No, labor is a product in the economy just like anything else. If firms compete fairly for labor (there is no single firm that has a monopoly on that trade) then unions are not needed. Also, of course the firms must not collude to artificially deflate wages. Unions were needed at one time when there were firms that had a virtual monopoly on the trade or did collude. Now in most cases unions just raise prices for consumers or force companies out of business.

I'm a student now but I worked a minimum wage job for 6 months at one time. My work experience there was not exactly pleasent and so I did kind of gain a sense of sympathy for blue collar workers but this does not deter my beliefs in basic economic principles.

6 months are nothing compared to a whole life with children at minimum wage with no healthcare for you or your children. You get cancer, no treatment, you die, your children lose you. USA 2003. At the same time your big boss keeps on signing himself paychecks worth millions of $.
There is no such thing as a free market. On any market there are those who control the market, and those who suffer. Unions fight to diminish the sufferings. Because those in control of the markets make people suffer to make more money.
Why not abandon your ideology and choose to base your ideas on reality? Because your are too weak to face reality and only reality?

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: NetGuySC
everyone here is complaining about jobs going overseas, yet we want the absolute lowest price even if it is made in China

We are a country driven by price. Most people could care less if their purchase is costing an american a job, just as long as they get the best price.

WalMart is a perfect example of this. We as Americans has turned them into the largest company in the world, because you can buy almost anything there cheaper than you can by elsewhere. Yet 80% of what they sale is made overseas.

Since 9/11, I just wonder how many US based jobs those flag-waving patriotic WalMart shoppers have costs us?

Does anyone see my point?

We can not supply a descent wage for any business product made with US sweat, if most americans will only buy the cheaper products made with cheap foreign sweat.

Until we, as a country, decide to buy only products made on US soil, no matter the costs, this current trend will continue.

Now, which came first- the chicken or the egg? You claim that american consumers are fueling this by only buying cheap products, but I say it's because the american consumer's wage has steadily decreased so that they have no choice! Example, in the late 1970s my father was working at a GM plant here in New York as a maintenance worker getting about 30k. He and my mother bought a house at around 110k, about 3.5 times his salary Now I work in this area as a software engineer making 55k, and my old house my dad bought for 110k is now valued 550k. If I wanted to buy that or another typical average house in my area that's about 10x my salary! Of course there are products like electronics which have become incredibly easy to afford as opposed to the 70's but these are not necessary items, they are pretty much luxury items- but a place to live is absolutely necessary! In 4 years my dad alone could pay off his mortgage if he put 20% down, nowadays you need a dad and mom working a decade or more.

 

[NetGuySC]

I see your point concerning the steady decrease in income. Seems like my dad made $63 a week in the 70's working for AT&T yet we owned two houses at once while raising 3 children, and I concede that I will be giving this much more thought/ analyst in the future.

Perhaps we are both right in ways

But I do stand by my point that if most of what we buy is cheaper and made overseas, then who is supporting that US based company?