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My Vista Horror

flexy

flexy

Diamond Member
i am back from the biggest system crash i had in my many years career as PC geek/tech. The nightmare of any PC User.

I've never had a system crash of that maginitude - and after three days fighting with the machine i had to admit defeat ---> reinstall Vista X64.

to get an idea and why i am so angry:

* I had some rather "common" BSOD while i was defragging the HD with Diskeeper. I rebooted, and i thought i let checkdsk run, just to make sure no files very damaged. From this point the system was dead. But read on why this was areally, major, major pain in the *** (to say it mildly....)


* System booted, but shortly before login i got a black screen with only the mouse moving. Interestingly, nothing froze..it was just sitting there on the BSOP (black screen of procrastination) for hours.

1) All known Vista Recovery Options using Vista Recovery Console (Startup Repair etc..) didnt find anything wrong.
2) I did extensive SFC, system file checker from Vista Recovery Console in offline-mode...didnt find anything wrong with ANY system file after some time scanning of my Vista install.
3) i restored and moved around several backups of my registry, some where i knew they worked...nothing.
4) All restore points and system restore were GONE....thanks to diskeeper or whatever happened clearing all my system restore points. (IRONY....)
5) i did extensive disk checking (chkdsk) which came up clear

So...i am sitting at a Vista which was booting, but stopped booting...and i exhausted A LOT of resources, including boot-tracing, Windows WAIK, etc..etc...whatever i could do from the Vista Recovery Console.

I have several WinPE, XPE etc. boot disks where i digged into the registry of the dead system usign remote registry...etc..etc...

After three days....well today i reainstalled and i i do already have most of my stuff running again.

I backed up all my data and the corrupt Vista Windows-folder to an external HD, so i reinstall stuff now and i am able to pull certain settings back from the old install.

What did this teach me?

* That Vista has many, many "security" features, i had KAV running, and system-restore and Volume Shadow Copy on...but all this helped NOTHING.
I did not get a destroyed Vista by malware or a virus, but by some very random, stupid coincidence which COULD happen again!

You can have the most "secure" OS and filesystem....but if you're "lucky" as me it wont help you a bit.

* Vista, AGAIN, takes the crown since we dont have a "repair install" option anymore...
From the Vista RE you can ONLY do a repair (upgrade) install preserving your data from a RUNNING vista. If you cant boot into Vista anymore (as in my case) and startup-repair doesnt come-up with anything..you're out of luck.


---> will look into backup options now, like imaging system every week to this nice external USB HD....PREVENTIVE.
I learned that there is NO 100% safe way to keep your data - EXCEPT a regular backup to external media.
(I already had software for registry backups etc..etc..but as said..all worthless...)


I have to say, one good the whole thing has:

The new install is snappy and i might have less problems now as i had with the old install....so i will not touch the corrupted windows install anymore, just sporadically fetch user-settings from the old install etc. if i really need them, eg. which i did for firefox, windows mail etc... (I was tempted to "experiment"...but now i dont want to screw THIS one up....)

I was not happy with the old Vista install at all since i had issues like extreme slow shutdown and other stuff. And this new install is like fresh air 🙂

/RANT OFF


 
I recently had to reinstall vista, done it like 5 times already, however this time I had to wipe the mbr before I reinstalled it. Somehow vista managed to trash the mbr causing the system to become unstable by the obvious file errors that were compounding upon themselves. Vista is the only os to ever be on this hd and i don't run any 3rd party utilities like I did with previous os's. My last two reinstalls were brought on by sp1 which trashed my original x64 build. When I reinstalled vista from that it was flaky so I wiped the mbr and started from scratch. I had to do this one time before with xp pro and a maxtor sata hd, the original maxtor 200gb sata drives behaved weird and only wiping the mbr allowed me to reinstall xp pro. Well anyway glad you got it sorted out and are able to restore your stuff. I learned a long time ago to keep my data on a separate drive from the os and now I'm running 5 hd's.
 
OK. Sorry it sucked for you 🙂 This is the reason I have my OS on a seperate driven that everything else. So it really doesnt matter if it gets trashed. But then, I do reinstalls about every 3 months, but I digress. Sorry you have a bad experience. Sounds like some of mine with XP.
 
BSOP Lol :^P Sorry you had problems. I've had my own O/S battles this weekend also (MCE 2005). It's a real pita to try to fix things instead of just starting over. Usually you get so far into the process that you don't want to give up. In retrospect, a clean install is almost always quicker :^/
 
Originally posted by: lxskllr
BSOP Lol :^P Sorry you had problems. I've had my own O/S battles this weekend also (MCE 2005). It's a real pita to try to fix things instead of just starting over. Usually you get so far into the process that you don't want to give up. In retrospect, a clean install is almost always quicker :^/
Click to expand...

Unless of course you have 50 games installed on your computer 🙁

I've only really had one scare with Vista x64 myself, but that was really hardware related. I switched my SATA controller to AHCI and Vista would blue screen on me(even after switching AHCI back off). Even after doing the registry tweak before hand. Turns out it was the PATA to SATA adapter I had on one of my hard drives. Wouldn't work after I enabled AHCI, so I fixed it by just using a parallel cable.

Still made me crap myself since I really didn't want to have to reinstall all my software.
 
hehe...MBR...MBR is a piece of cake, or just a trashed BCD...no problem. But this one...SHUDDERS... Problem, Vista took out the "Repair Install" Options as we had in XP.
lx: Well...a fresh reinstall for me is the biggest nightmare, and USUALLY i never do this, i have PCs running for years, no kidding. Fresh reinstall is really the last resort 🙂

Anyway, looking good now. Yes...in retrospective the fresh install would've been the better option right away, as opposed sitting 3 days on this...but then this never happened to me since i have the "usual" measurements in place, like registry backups..etc..etc...

So..for historic reasons i can look back at this crash....and maybe just guess that some essential file (maybe related to user profiles ?) was trashed...not a file which was checked with SFC since SFC checked out all system files ok. This was what puzzled me so much since all analyses known to me looked ok, files, registry, hardware, startup-repair...and still it just wouldnt boot. Still thinking about best backup-solution now.

oh...i totally forgot:

Safe Mode, also with Console didnt work either 🙂

Thats when you realise you might have a problem...

EWJ: Yeah i did the AHCI thing a few weeks back...it worked, but turned out that native IDE is way faster here. (I did extensive benchmarks)
 
IMO you cant be absolutely sure that the cause of your issue was due to VISTA. A number of times Ive had a cluster go bad on the HDD & firmware will automatically assign a spare (happened three times already in a small time window with some very expensive 300GB low speed Maxtor drives which I use for archive). In all cases files in the lost cluster were damaged. I lost data & had to reconstruct the damaged portions. Since the HDD was all data this was relatively easy, but if something went bad on an OS partition in the wrong place youd have a real tough time if you didnt know what your looking for & you arent able to implement a high level repair of the OS (ie, critical files restoration utility).
 
Wow, sounds like a real b1tch.

Thats one of the reasons I image my OS partition and don't solely rely on things like system restore, repair etc.

Its always comforting to know if the sh1t hits the fan, I can always just clone the image back and be up and running in just a few minutes.

 
Originally posted by: C1
IMO you cant be absolutely sure that the cause of your issue was due to VISTA. A number of times Ive had a cluster go bad on the HDD & firmware will automatically assign a spare (happened three times already in a small time window with some very expensive 300GB low speed Maxtor drives which I use for archive). In all cases files in the lost cluster were damaged. I lost data & had to reconstruct the damaged portions. Since the HDD was all data this was relatively easy, but if something went bad on an OS partition in the wrong place youd have a real tough time if you didnt know what your looking for & you arent able to implement a high level repair of the OS (ie, critical files restoration utility).
Click to expand...

I'm 99% sure the blame lies with vista. I ran the hitachi disk tools on my drive to be sure that no other problems existed and everything was fine. I then zeroed out the mbr and reinstalled vista and all has been well since. I initially started out with vista ultimate 32 and then migrated to x64 all using the ntfs file system.
 
Originally posted by: Puffnstuff

I'm 99% sure the blame lies with vista.
Click to expand...

I'm in 100% agreement with Puffnstuff. Vista is still very immature.

Installing Vista right now is like letting a newly-licensed 16-year-old driver operate a car they've never driven on a busy street ... hit or miss, as it were.

 
I have backup images of all my OS partitions & copies of all difficult to replace data on archive HDDs. Dont use the backup often, but when problems strike (& they will at the damndest most unexpected & inconvienient times) then it is well worth the effort.

Yes, Ive found that MBR getting trashed is invariably due to something writing to it. Sometimes a simple command line restore operation can save it. Im a big proponent of wiping drives as part of a crash restoration. When attempting to help friends with their systems Ive found that somehow they ended up writing something to the HDD (usually it's in the sector zero) that prevents a new/clean install.

By-the-way, once firmware repairs for a bad cluster then the drive will operate & scan perfectly fine with HDD test tools (such as SEATOOLS). What is suspicious in Flexy's case is that the problem seemed to occur with or after defrag.
 
The irony is..that crashes like this can happen and you can have ANY measurement in place you want, malware protection, defender, the best AV program, system restore, volume shadow copy, you can have a "safe" file system like NTFS...you can check your system every day for trojans and viruses, you can have a firewall running. All protection which is supposed to protect our PCs from bad things happening, right?
But...after all (not that i am saying those above things are worthless)....but things can happen which are just not under "control"...i mean a crash "per definition" is something out of control (like unexcepected BSOD, Powerloss etc....) and if it hits some critical part of the OS....well...there you have it.

Do i blame Vista?

Yes and No. I dont understand why they took out recovery console..and i dont "understand" why system restore etc. turned out worthless....i mean isnt this the primary reason you have all those services running?

From that point of view..i could almost say..."screw all those AV programs, firewalls, Vista services", just schedule regular backups to some external device..and you are better off instead of giving a false sense of security. Seriously people, do backups 🙂

Since i do NOT have an own partition for the OS (i have reasons for that)...now the internal backup turns out worthless since it only allows a whole backup (incl. all my games, data which i already backed up)....or only "settings". But i cant specify just to backup C:\windows or something. Again..good idea..but in practice not useable.
So...i am looking at comodo backup right now, i think used that once already and it looked ok.

And yes, Vista is still very immature....especially BEFORE SP1.



 
Originally posted by: C1
I have backup images of all my OS partitions & copies of all difficult to replace data on archive HDDs. Dont use the backup often, but when problems strike (& they will at the damndest most unexpected & inconvienient times) then it is well worth the effort.

Yes, Ive found that MBR getting trashed is invariably due to something writing to it. Sometimes a simple command line restore operation can save it. Im a big proponent of wiping drives as part of a crash restoration. When attempting to help friends with their systems Ive found that somehow they ended up writing something to the HDD (usually it's in the sector zero) that prevents a new/clean install.

By-the-way, once firmware repairs for a bad cluster then the drive will operate & scan perfectly fine with HDD test tools (such as SEATOOLS). What is suspicious in Flexy's case is that the problem seemed to occur with or after defrag.
Click to expand...

never had any problems with defrag....i think it just was a crash at the wrong moment...otherwise i am pretty used to BSODs and similar..but certainly not some which render a system useless 🙂

Since this was a really bizarre and impossible to track/fix problem (i found ONE other PC tech online describing the same problem, also, he had to give up on this and reinstall)...there is a slight likelyhood it can happen again and for sure preventive measurements would be wise there 🙂

 
Why Defrag caught my attention is that I believe (or at least it seemed) that in certain cases a spot on the HDD can go bad but that fact may not be picked up until the bad portion is attempted to be accessed. (It will be picked up if the disk is scanned.) Defrag (particularly if the HDD is in need of defrag) by its nature has a good chance of encountering a bad spot should it exist. That's why I always perform together HDD cleanup, ScanDisk then do the Defrag & always in that order. NEVER ATTEMPT TO DEFRAG AN HDD WITH DAMAGE OR HAVING DAMAGED FILES!

Also as I recall, True Image will let you backup specific portions of a partition (eg, C:\Windows only). TI is interesting as it doesnt treat the pagefile, unused space plus it can compress the backup/image so that a backedup/imaged 40GB OS partition might only need occupy 8-10GB.
 
i tried to do a selective backup with TI, so i excluded certain folders from the backup and just included my Windows folder and user data and similar.
I was suprised it seeing copying data over which i explicitly excluded, eg. i have a folder "Data" which contains apps and games.

I started the backup and saw it copying Recycle Bin (which i excluded also!) as well as Games on my "Data" folder....just to mention FSX and Xplane which alone are like 150GB. So...i am not sure but i think TI has a bug.

The "system state" option doesnt copy too much in my opinion, eg. it doesnt copy user profiles and there is a good chance it doesnt copy important data i need.

And comodo backup came up with several "access denied" etc...so i dont trust comodo AT ALL.
 
Actually the only way that I use TI is by imaging a whole partition. Also a warning. TI (at least the older ones) do have issues. Before I actually used TI for backups I set up a test bench (ie, dedicated hardware suite just to test the software), I ran the software thru the gears & I made copious notes. With TI9 there are certain combinations of steps you should not perform or you'll actually mess up your master drive. With software like this, always test it 1st (when possible) in the way that you plan to use it then stick with the plan unless you've verified already the new procedure (the ole "Trust but Verify" Ronald Reagan thing). Otherwise an "on-the-fly" variation in your backup procedure might give you a very unpleasant surprise.
 
A crash in the middle of defragging is just about the worst time possible for one, second only to crashing during a BIOS flash. If the disk manager was in the process of compressing or relocating fragments of OS files when the crash occured (and it sounds like it was), you're pretty much screwed, as you found out.

Nightly back-ups, in the classic sense, won't really help since backups are of limited use in restoring a system that isn't working. Unless the crash porked, say, the registry and just the registry, restoring isn't likely to fix the file that matters, since that file's record on disk is broken (i.e. it probably can't be deleted, moved, or overwritten).

The only thing that would help in this case is an image that can be reloaded. Makes me thing about my own back-up regime, which would probably be better off being replaced with a nightly full-disk image.
 
edit: a weekly partition image backup? jeez man, why not monthly?

try not to make the vista partition too big, or you may find that making an image of it takes too much space. (a 60gb image file may be too large for you, so keep the OS partition at ~40gb)

my windows xp partition is only ~12gb, but vista can take up more space for sure.

i indeed highly recommend partition image backups ;-)
 
You should really look in to Windows Home Server, it would be just about the perfect solution for this situation.

The local VSS cache that runs the Previous Versions/System Restore is rather nice for when you do something stupid and only need to get back specific files, but System Restore has never been a very potent solution to hard drives going bad. I hope you replaced that drive just to be safe.😱
 
Originally posted by: degibson
Originally posted by: Puffnstuff

I'm 99% sure the blame lies with vista.
Click to expand...

I'm in 100% agreement with Puffnstuff. Vista is still very immature.

Installing Vista right now is like letting a newly-licensed 16-year-old driver operate a car they've never driven on a busy street ... hit or miss, as it were.
Click to expand...

You bugchecked while in the middle of rearranging the clusters on your disk with a 3rd party utility and you're somehow 99 (or 100) % conviced that Vista is the issue????

/facepalm


 
virge, the drive itself is not defective or has bad sectors. Its fine 🙂

Also: Running Vista Ultima X64 i do run VSS, Voluma Shadow Copy Service. Didnt change the fact that my restore points were purged - but i remember i had diskeeper running in a standard mode where it also said it's possible that restore points get purged. Bummer...

Oh..btw i run TI 11 Home..the latest version. Still kind of puzzled regarding the backup options we have - i really, really do NOT want the OS on an own partition, at least not on the same drive.

But..i WILL get a new drive anyway dedicated to the OS only...and this now would be another reason to get a dedicated OS drive for sure.

 
Originally posted by: flexy
virge, the drive itself is not defective or has bad sectors. Its fine 🙂

Also: Running Vista Ultima X64 i do run VSS, Voluma Shadow Copy Service. Didnt change the fact that my restore points were purged - but i remember i had diskeeper running in a standard mode where it also said it's possible that restore points get purged. Bummer...

Oh..btw i run TI 11 Home..the latest version. Still kind of puzzled regarding the backup options we have - i really, really do NOT want the OS on an own partition, at least not on the same drive.

But..i WILL get a new drive anyway dedicated to the OS only...and this now would be another reason to get a dedicated OS drive for sure.
Click to expand...
Ultimate? Using Complete PC backup would've saved your skin.
 
why would i *want* a complete PC backup? I dont want to backup 300GB of game data (which i backuped anyway already) but solely the OS and other "critical" stuff.
Sure, a complete image/backup would've saved me...but its not that i have harddisks left and right here where i can just image 400-500GB of data 🙂
 
I'm about 99.99% sure that you'd be just as assed out if the same thing had happened in XP. What "common" BSOD are you experiencing?
 
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