My upgrade possiblities

[phill9700]

Hi all,
Im trying to change my whole setup and i was wondering what sort things you guys might recommend..
i was looking into buying a barton 2500 and a nf7-s (both to go with my corsair xms 3200 LL memory (1 gig of) and also i have a geforce 4 ti 4200 128Mb's card from gainward but i wont have that VERY long, depending on when ATi release they speed king, i just prefer the image looks and the performance is rather tasty too..), but i was wondering what sort of other possiblities are avaiable..
i know of the intel route and by reading through a few threads here at amandtech the 2.4C's seem to be doing rather well when overclocking and im always up for a bit of that!!
the other possiblity would of course be the opteron route, which although is rather expensive, its also rather blisteringly fast.
i was considering (dont worry, there is method in my madness here) buying a base unit only from pc world (which gives you more than you need) at a so so price, then ripping out what i do want and then putting it together with better components. also by doing this my girl friend could have the memory from the system i buy and i could have my corsair back! im using a duron at the moment and boy am i finding it really hard to get along with.. i need speed here! it was just a thought and i wasnt going to do anything much anyway for a little while until i did my research to find out whats good bad or ugly..
so basically, price isnt to much of a problem, if i want something regardless of what it costs i will buy it, but with pc components, i go for 'best value', if there is such a thing! for example, i wouldnt buy the top end cpus (either intel or amd) because they are far to expensive, but i would get something one or two steps down (you guys know what i mean.. yeah?)
will be mostly gaming, so speed i believe, is something very high on my list of being important, but i will also be doing live video capture (backing up all my Red Dwarf videos for one and not to mention south park!!) and trying my hands at a bit of rendering and anything else i can put my hands on! i do have a pioneer dvd burner (105 with firmware 1.30 on the drive) so i will be using that as well.
anyways, the rest is up to you.. please guide me well chaps!!
best regards
phill

ps. please dont flame, i just would like some ideas, information and system recommendations. i dont know any intel motherboards very well so this is why im asking about what i could be doing.. thanks again!

 

[Duvie]

If you have settled on the notion you need to buy an entire system anyways I put my money in the p4c which has HT technology (which does pay off and we are starting to see more of this everyday....) and excels in multimedia, rendering versus the amd line of chips. Both chips can oc quite well but in my opinion the intel oc's a bit better with less voltage. Amd rig will do quite well in gaming.


Look at michaelD's thread and he ven states the 2500+ at default is aout 15% slower then the p4 setup and that is likely on the average sied with gaming being close but multimedia being handed to p4. In some multimedia and rendering test the 2.4c can even hand the 3000+ barton a loss.

 

[phill9700]

well the reason i ask about intel is that, i have had a xp1700 and i have overclocked that little sucker past and up to xp3200 levels (i cant for some reason get that 512k of l2 cache working tho.. oh well, what you gonna do?) and i have been very happy with its performance. that was £45 for a cpu comparing it to a £350 cpu.. i figured i did quite well.
how would you sugguest going after the intel? what would i need?
like i said, i have a 'basic' graphics card, memory, dvd burner and a hard drive (although i would like another one).. i need the rest of the system.. i have decided on a psu as well, an antec 550w true power (good enough or could i get away with a 480w????)
like i have said, i could consider buying a base tower from pc world and getting the bits that way and selling/upgrading parts i dont want (which would be the motherboard i can pretty much guarantee myself..) would this be a good way of doing it or a waste of time?
i want a very fast, stable pc.. speed is a high priory for me, i want the best i can get for the minimum type of price.. im not worried about spending a little more to get something 10 to 20% quickier or more than that for a 5% or 10% price difference.. some recommendations of intel motherboards etc would be great.. i have always liked abit, how are they on the intel side of things?

 

[Duvie]

Abit is very good...maybe the two top borads in the class of i865/i875 chipsets and the best overclockers from all reports OI have seen...

I would say 480watts would be enough to run up to 3.2ghz level but the 550watt may be safer if you get a real gem.

2.4c oems around 160 and retail around 170 but you will likely want a good aftermarket cooler
Abit Is7 i865 mobo can be had right at 100.00 us dollars
Abit Ic7 i875 mobo can be had for around 120 us dollars....the diff is not much since the i865 bioses end up offering the PAT stuff anyways

either case not bad for cost of a board which will give you onboard firewire, usb2.0, agp8x, and SATA raid...

The ram should work fine as long as you use the 5:4 ratio you should be able to push this to near 270fsb before ram may start limiting you.

 

[phill9700]

so what sort of cpu speeds are we looking at here? over 3ghz? would my ram be limiting anything or is that ok for now?
there are so many different chipsets for the intel cpu's, which one would give me best performance/stablity/price? as for the power supply i always feel by having more than you need is better than having not enough so i will stick with the 550w psu, rather than trying to 'skimp' on it..
as i said before, i have no ideas on intel motherboards and i dont really want to get something thats not going to be supported within a few months of me getting it!
thanks for the help so far!! its been great!!

 

[Duvie]

At this point for insured hyperthreading support and to run your 2 sticks in a dual channel setup (the best for the p4 to give it the most bandwidth) I would only look at the i865pe or i875 chipsets only....


Those ram sticks with a 5:4 memory divider should do 250fsb just at spec....12x250=3ghz and 5:4 ratio means 200fsb or 400ddr....

I think with a vdimm increase up to 2.8v those pc3200 sticks should at least go up to 430ddr...hel my pc3000 corsair stuff does 450mhz ddr memtested for 10passes no errors....

430ddr (215mhz) with a 5:4 ratio would run a fsb of 266 so 12x 266 would be 3.2ghz.

I think thast is on the high-end for the ram. I think the 2.4c chips will do 3.2ghz since most of the 2.4b chips were getting in that range with only 1.6v.

May want to look at some pc3500 or pc3700 stuff later if you feel the cpu may have had some gusto left or you couldn't get the ram stable at 430ddr even with relaxed timings...

 

[aznskickass]

Duvie, I 'only' have an Antec TruePower 430W PSU, and I can run my P4 @ 3.4GHz just fine.

I also have a 9800 Pro, which chews up quite a bit of power too.

I reckon a good quality brand 400W PSU is enough for a high end rig.

 

[Duvie]

It may be cause the antec line are pretty high-quality when it comes to amps on the 12v line...the vid card likely does not draw off of the 12v rail anyways so maybe it only effects oevrall wattage total....

With my current setup as I started getting over 3ghz my 12v line is about +.2v lower under load at 3.24ghz then at 3.06ghz. I can tell it is starting to hit its edge. MObos can vary on this and sometimes make one feel like he has power issues when another board may hold that rail rock solid or even overvolt. I am only running 430watts as well but my antec 430 tru power was even weaker on this board hence I got the enermax....

 

[phill9700]

well im hoping for either a nice overclock or just a stable pc thats not going to over heat or something stupid.. the last thing i want is slow down on a 3ghz+ machine or something!
any particular motherboards (makes and models) that you might recommend? like i said, i prefer abit for some reason.. i'll probably upgrade pcs before i think about changing the memory!
im also aiming for something a little faster (if at all possible) than a 9800 pro, so i figure prepare for the unexpected!

 

[Duvie]

I would look at the abit ic7 s it has been tried and true in many of the oc forums as being one of the iof not the best ocing i875 mobo capable of reaching very high fsb which you need with the 2.4c and it very low 12x multiplier...

 

[phill9700]

well if its ok with you, i will find a couple setups and prices and let you know about them, see what you think would be the best one and then go from there.. would that be ok? have to go to the dentist so i will be back in about an hour.. (i have to visit my local pc shop for a cpu heatsink/fan...)
once again, thanks ever so much for your help. i look forward to hearing what you think of my sugguestions.

 

[Duvie]

No problem!!!

 

[phill9700]

well, heres my list mate, and im also wondering whether or not you might know of any psu's around 300Ws that have a dual fan setup and doesnt cost a bomb... its for my internet pc, its only a duron, although it has a scsi drive at the moment, it wont be there for very long..
anyways, heres the list..

AMD setup
barton xp2500 £70
abit nf7-s rev 2 £80
good heat sink and fan £????? i have been using spire fans and i have been getting good results.. but not many people like them total for amd + £60 on a fan/heatsink (over the top) £210

intel setup
P4 @ 2.4Ghz 800 fsb £146 inc. fan or 2.66ghz £176 or 2.8ghz £223
abit motherboard either IC7G (875P) @ £142 or I57G 865PE @ £122 total for CHEAPEST parts = £270

now looking at it like this, the difference is quite a bit, but just looking at the numbers as numbers and not money, theres a minimum difference of £60 for mobo and cpu..
now honestly, what sort of an overclock would i be looking at for BOTH setups? i have been hearing people getting xp3200 speeds from the xp2500 and you where saying that from the 2.4 p4 chip, 3.2ghz was quite common.
but the thing is, what is the ACTUAL real difference in the performance? would i notice the differences and are they worth the £60 extra?
now before i go on any further, i still need the following:

PSU - which i have decided on the antec 550W true power model
case - xaser 3 aliminium in silver (or just the standard blue model which isnt aliminium... would i notice a difference?)
dvd rom - pioneer model to go with the pioneer burner i have also... (see below)

as for the things i already have, the list is below..:
corsair xms memory 3200 dual ddr kit 1 gig of the stuff
gainward geforce 4 ti 4200 128 mbs card (it will be upgraded as and when ati bring out something faster than the 9800 pro by a margin thats bigger than 9700 pro to 9800 pro.. something like a g2 ultra to a 9700 pro performance difference would be great )
i have a maxtor 120gig hard drive (id like another one) and a dvd-rw (pioneer 105 model)

so what would be the best performance upgrade i should/could do and that i wouldnt need to upgrade for a while? also would i need a better heatsink/fan combi for the intel setup or is the one you get with the cpu good enough for overclocking as well?
thank you so much for helping me out. i look forward to a reply! hopefully one making more sense than this!!
kindest regards
phill

 

[Duvie]

The 3.2c 800 thoroughly beat the 3200+ amd in majority of all test and in the multimedia arae it was almost embarassing, not to mention in many areas the xp 2800+ non barton is as competitive as the 3200+ because clock speed does matter!!! Frankly 2500+ barton to a 3200+ barton is not impressive since the whiole barton line jhas been non-impressive due to amd's ignorance and marketing BS by dropping the overall clock speed but jacking up the pr rating. Yes they did it cause 400fsb and 512l2 cache can make performance differences, but unfortunately not always and not across the board. So in the end it looks pretty lame in several tests and in certain cmioputing areas.

The 60 pounds is likely not noticeable in say the gaming end but will be far noticeable in the multimedia, reandering, etc field...Also HT (hyper threading) can be very beneficial if you are a multitasker.

IMO, that cost difference is worth. I would definitely not get the 2.66ghz b (533fsb) chip cause I think the HT and 800fsb is worth it...Look at past reviews the 2.4c is pretty close to a 2.66ghz, or closer then the speed would appear.

 

[phill9700]

well like i am trying to say, i know that the amd line of xp throughbreds and barton's havent gone the way i would have want a cpu to have gone. their Mhz isnt high enough and its quite frankly something i get annoyed about, as i read amd cpus do more per mhz than intel. i would therefore believe that given the chance, i would think if a 2.5ghz 200fsb amd barton was given the rating of 3200 and put up by a 3.2c intel p4, i might say they intel could have a bit more of a 'fight' on its hands, but having got no cpus benchmarks for this, i cant really say much more.
as you say, £60 isnt all that much and to be honest, im more taken by a pc showing me different 'numbers' for those benchmarks so i can physically see the differences between the systems. 'real time' tests are all very good, but to me, without having a pc within the same spec, its a little difficult to see which is better.
but then saying that, the new opteron cpus from amd, seem to be kicking a p4 @ 3.2ghz butt a bit and thats only a 1.8ghz, which i beg the question to ask, what the heck would a 3.2ghz opteron be like?!
i have been looking into a motherboard and cpu combination and i would really like to see one working and seeing how i overclock the intels cpu as i really have no idea how it is done.
physically seeing what they can do and then saying, yes i want that, would be easier for me but sadly, i cant without seeing someone elses pc who those requirements are like mine.
i read good things about both companies, but i do believe intels cpu's are very over priced and for the money at standard speeds, they are quite 'slow'? (is that the right word im looking for?)
intels do crave bandwidth, how can i make a 2.4ghz cpu from intel faster than i have ever been? i need to know some answers, before i start buying the hardware..
how do i overclock these cpus and how do i get the best from the setup?
oh and with the hardware i have mentioned for the intel setup, would that be a good start? is it worth my girl friend keeping my pc3200 memory and me getting something faster again or what?
i thank you for your views, could you please tell me how you can back up what you are saying, with some tests of your own? all i need is some hard evidence.. (but one very quick question...) are all p4 @2.4ghz with the 'c' chip, going to be the same or would i have to hunt down a particular model to get this great 1ghz overclock?
thank you for your help and time.. its been very nice to hear.

 

[Duvie]

I don't know what test you have been looking at but the opteron 146 the best released but not widely available does not beat the 3.2ghz cpu impressively at much of anything and depending on whether you like to review biased and kewed reviews like that from amdzone.com results may vary. The 144,142 and 140 opterons did not beat the 3.2ghz p4c in the test I reviewed which showed in several instances where programs like raw speed the 3200+ even beat the opterons.....

That being said remember the answer to the opteron and the athlon64 will be the prescott and also remember the athlon64 at release will only be single channel and not dual channel controller as the opteron and no 64bit windows software will be available for the market. With that I can say a 1mb l2 cache, HT enhancemets, SSE optimizations, and at 3.4ghz will bequite impressive and likely comparable in price to the athlon64 at release. If the athlon64 doesn't come out at least in 2.2ghz form the 3.4ghz prescott will beat it in tests for sure based on opteron test and other leaked results....

A 2.4c at 3.0ghz will have a 250fsb which if you run at 1:1 your memory will be 500ddr (the fastest available). Likley you will run at 5:4 ratio with higher timings and run the memory at 400ddr. The performance at this point will have 1000fsb and be faster then a comparable stock 3.0c. Now at 3.2ghz you will be running at 267fsb and will definitely need to be running at 5:4 ratio but now the memory will be at 426ddr which is very doable by many pc3200, pc3500, pc3700, and pc4000 sticks, so you don't need to drop a load of cash to get ram that will work. I would look maybe at some hyperx brand 3500 to 3700 sticks. That 3.2ghz oc'd will and should be faster then any stiock 3.2ghz p4c and probably more comparable to a 3.3+...If you get lucky and get to 3.4ghz+ as some have that will be a whopping 283fsb for 453mhz ddr.

 

[phill9700]

well there has been reviews on amandtech and gamepc with the opteron being in a nice 'favourite' position and by reading the reviews myself, i find the cpu very impressive, considering the raw speed of the chip and the fact that nothing has been written for it..
with regards to the speed of the intel cpu, at standard speed, what could the overclocked version be compared to? 3.4ghz+ or something? i assume the extra speed from the cpu and the extra bandwidth it would recieve would make it a bit of a monster with gaming, renders etc, would it not?
well, as i just need a faster machine at the moment badly (im using a 650 duron @ 800 at the moment and a xp1800, both of which i cant do much with because of the lack of speed) i might just get the amd setup and then try and get the intel later. im not to worried about spending out twice as then i would have TWO machines, but spending out for the intel might prove a tad to much should i not 'like' it.
like i said, im really unsure about it.. i just need to see one working first before i can say, yes i will have that...
darn pc's!!!

 

[Duvie]

While I don't share you enthusiasm for an overhyped chip that I think is underperforming compared to its previous hype and likely to be at too low of a initial speed to hold back the prescott for the speed title. That is a different topic really, so lets not discuss it.


Yes a 2.4c oc'd to 3.2ghz even with running the ddr with a 5:4 ratio for 400mhz ddr will be faster then the stock 3.2c. I think with a 1000fsb system bus it should feel probably more like say a 3.3ghz. NOt much faster but think of the price difference. That is what puts the smile on the face. Now if you can coulpe that with say some pc3500 ram like hyperx for around $80/256mb chip then you can gain that dual channel speed of 433mhz ddr at 3.2ghz for probably more of a feel of say nearing a 3.4ghz p4c if there was one. The biggest factor is getting the speed for a whole lot less...



Here is the system I am looking at getting, and trust me I am eyeing more like the 3.4-3.5ghz range and I think you can possibly get there as well.

P4c 2.4ghz ~$170
Abit IS7 ~$100
(2) 256mb sticks of OCZ 3700EL Gold cas 2-3-3-7 ~$180

P4c 2.6ghz ~$203
Abit IS7 ~$100
(2) 256mb sticks of HyperX PC3500 433mhz ddr cas 2-3-3-7-1t ~$160


The 2.6c wont hit a high enough fsb for me to warrant the more expensive pc3700, but I am seeing some reports of guys getting some of the recent ones in the 3.5ghz range more often.

3.2ghz should be about certain, but 3.4-3.5ghz may take a couple of times for me to find it....

 

[phill9700]

well now that the althon 64's are coming near to the sites of being released, would it be worth a wait? considering i cant really do to much about buying it for a couple of months anyway, would it be worth holding on that little bit more? enough of that.. more of what is at present..
as i live in the uk, prices might be a little higher or lower depending on what i go for i guess, but i will see what the SAME hardware will cost me and see what you think...
i have a review of some geil pc4000 from pcstats, i wondered what you thought... click me for review
well, im really looking forward to finding some hardware and prices and if you are saying that i can get to 3.2ghz+ then i will be looking forward doing just that! its am impressive feat never the less!
when overclocking an intel cpu, can you adject the multiplier as well as the fsb or are you just limited to the fsb? isnt it harder getting it to work that way round with not much ram supporting the higher fsbs? doesnt all the cas timings and so on make it slower even with the higher fsb?

 

[Duvie]

Intel is all fsb for the overclocking...You are right when fsb is all you have we can run into the limit of our ram, but we have 5:4 ratios and even some 3:2 ratios which as long as you have some good pc3500 to pc3700 that shouldn't be a problem. The higher the ratio like the 2.6c or more so the 2.8c means you could look at getting some 500mhz ddr and likely run it at pc4000 standards.

You are also right the higher the cas settings the worse the performance, but at 5:4 you should be able to run aggressive settings with pc3500 or pc3700 sticks.

 

[Duvie]

Intel is all fsb for the overclocking...You are right when fsb is all you have we can run into the limit of our ram, but we have 5:4 ratios and even some 3:2 ratios which as long as you have some good pc3500 to pc3700 that shouldn't be a problem. The higher the ratio like the 2.6c or more so the 2.8c means you could look at getting some 500mhz ddr and likely run it at pc4000 standards.

You are also right the higher the cas settings the worse the performance, but at 5:4 you should be able to run aggressive settings with pc3500 or pc3700 sticks.

 

[Duvie]

Intel is all fsb for the overclocking...You are right when fsb is all you have we can run into the limit of our ram, but we have 5:4 ratios and even some 3:2 ratios which as long as you have some good pc3500 to pc3700 that shouldn't be a problem. The higher the ratio like the 2.6c or more so the 2.8c means you could look at getting some 500mhz ddr and likely run it at pc4000 standards.

You are also right the higher the cas settings the worse the performance, but at 5:4 you should be able to run aggressive settings with pc3500 or pc3700 sticks.

 

[phill9700]

so basically what you are saying is that you lock the memory at a certain speed, say 250fsb for example and then ramp up the fsb anyways? doesnt that create a problem with the memory being slightly lower 'clocked'? doesnt it create a drag of over flow problem? or does it just simply, make the p4 go even faster?
i have seen so very fast p4 setups, in general i do agree that the p4's are a much faster cpu, whichever you look at it, but im also in a funny way, trying to save cash. but then again, i believe that the intel setup should 'last' longer as its a much faster clock speed.
i think it could be worth a look. maybe....

 

[Duvie]

You can't lock the memory speed independently of the cpu, just the divider....Anytime you adjust the fsb of the cpu you will be adjusting the ram speed....

IN this case the 800fsb is perfectly synched at 1:1 ratio. If you can keep a 1:1 ratio you will have a perfect balance between the amount of bandwidth the p4 needs and the ram can supply. NO oversupply no undersupply....The 5:4 reduces the speed of the ram versus the cpu fsb and therefore is not in synch and will supply slightly less bandwidth then the p4 can handle. Yes while not ideal it is more ideal and better for performance to raise cpu speed as high as possible and sacrifice some memory speed if you have to do it....

The 2.4c can save cash. The barton 2500+ is nice price but I don't think at 3200+ it compares to a 3.2 to 3.5ghz p4 with Dual channel pc3200-pc4000 with hyperthreading and such....

 

[phill9700]

so like then, would it be better to buy say a 2.6c or even a 2.8c because of the higher multiplier of the cpu and therefore when you overclock it the faster cpu again?
im just wondering whether or not it might be worth spending that little more again if i wanted a better overclock. like i said, its oging to be 2 possibly 3 months before i can get this hardware anyways. i dont want to use my overdraft to much!
but then saying that in 2 or 3 months prices are going to be cheaper anyway, arent they? or would after christmas be better again?
im trying to get the best for the money and save myself some as well, should i need to wait an extra month or so i aint going to be to worried about it.
i think some pc4000 or even pc4200 memory would be better to get with the intel setup should you want to go through the roof on the fsb speeds, i mean lets face it, 250 fsb and it being a 200fsb is a big jump, you just got to have the memory to do it to make it worth the while, right?