My Union was useful this week!!

[bctbct]

The problem is not related to employees, its that you dont charge enough for your product. Maybe overseas competition is hurting you. Maybe your white collar workers are overpayed. Maybe your govt over taxes you.

But your employees are able to deliver a quality product on time and they put your closest competition out of business.

You equate not being able to pay the bills with Unions.

Any of this sinking in?

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: bctbct
The problem is not related to employees, its that you dont charge enough for your product. Maybe overseas competition is hurting you. Maybe your white collar workers are overpayed. Maybe your govt over taxes you.

But your employees are able to deliver a quality product on time and they put your closest competition out of business.

You equate not being able to pay the bills with Unions.

Any of this sinking in?

Our product cannot be supplied from overseas...I told you "The product we sell has a large transport and spoilage cost associated with it."

With the number of white collar workers we have, it would have little effect on our bottom line relative to our other labour costs. We currently have 5 managers for a plant of 80 people, not excessive at all. If we charge more for our product, we will lose the business...it all comes down to per unit cost.

Sinking in?

 

[Stunt]

bctbct,

Since you are so hung up on costs not equal to agressive union...look at these figures...tell me if they make sense to you.

Electrician: $30/hr
Mechanic: $25/hr
General Labour: $20/hr
Students: $17/hr

Min. Wage: $7.75/hr

 

[bctbct]

You start this thread out with union bashing and have moved to employee performance and what you really want to say is that because of one thing or another the employees are going to have to take massive cuts for the company to survive.

This isnt about 10 ten workers fcuking off during the day, that wont solve 2 million per month.

You see a union bust in your future I see a plant closing. Either way your CEO padded his wallet and you want to blame the little guy.

They ship cars all over the world, cans are next.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: bctbct
You start this thread out with union bashing and have moved to employee performance and what you really want to say is that because of one thing or another the employees are going to have to take massive cuts for the company to survive.

This isnt about 10 ten workers fcuking off during the day, that wont solve 2 million per month.

You see a union bust in your future I see a plant closing. Either way your CEO padded his wallet and you want to blame the little guy.

They ship cars all over the world, cans are next.

I'm with the right company then...It's a multinational with 24,000 employees.
It's all internal competition; I'll move to Europe

and yes...our losses are all related to our unions. Not allowing us to man effectively and paying enormous sums of money. The plant with a $1m loss to budget pays their mechanics $45/hr. Ridiculous...a little?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Stunt
bctbct,

Since you are so hung up on costs not equal to agressive union...look at these figures...tell me if they make sense to you.

Electrician: $30/hr
Mechanic: $25/hr
General Labour: $20/hr
Students: $17/hr

Min. Wage: $7.75/hr

I don't see you4 or any of management's wages listed there. Kind of hard to make a judgment with such an incomplete picture.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Stunt
bctbct,

Since you are so hung up on costs not equal to agressive union...look at these figures...tell me if they make sense to you.

Electrician: $30/hr
Mechanic: $25/hr
General Labour: $20/hr
Students: $17/hr

Min. Wage: $7.75/hr

I don't see you4 or any of management's wages listed there. Kind of hard to make a judgment with such an incomplete picture.

Management represents very little of the workforce. I do agree there is no value adding activity done by management, but without management less value adding activity would occur and change would not happen.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: Stunt
bctbct,

Since you are so hung up on costs not equal to agressive union...look at these figures...tell me if they make sense to you.

Electrician: $30/hr
Mechanic: $25/hr
General Labour: $20/hr
Students: $17/hr

Min. Wage: $7.75/hr

Skilled craftsman demand good wages.

Think of it like this. You cut wages for electricians 40% because thats how much you think they should make.

Over 5 years the amount of people that go to school to be an electrician declines by 50% because its not really a good job anymore.

10 years from now you will have a massive shortage of skilled electricians and you will think $30 per hour is a bargain.

Some college grads think that skilled workers make too much, so? You had a chance to be an electrician.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: Stunt
bctbct,

Since you are so hung up on costs not equal to agressive union...look at these figures...tell me if they make sense to you.

Electrician: $30/hr
Mechanic: $25/hr
General Labour: $20/hr
Students: $17/hr

Min. Wage: $7.75/hr

Skilled craftsman demand good wages.

Think of it like this. You cut wages for electricians 40% because thats how much you think they should make.

Over 5 years the amount of people that go to school to be an electrician declines by 50% because its not really a good job anymore.

10 years from now you will have a massive shortage of skilled electricians and you will think $30 per hour is a bargain.

Some college grads think that skilled workers make too much, so? You had a chance to be an electrician.

I agree, skilled traded demand a larger rate, and we compensate well.
General Labour and students are way out in my opinion.

Everyone should be paid based on performance; our one electrcian who happens to be the union chair drags his ass and takes his sweet time with everything. Mechanics have vocally told him to hurry up and not dick around. Pretty sad if you ask me.

No worries though, we are pushing forward with our manning reductions for the year. If they want high wages, we will streamline and combine jobs and layoff. It's a less pleasant way to go, but that's the only route we can take to keep the plant open.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Stunt
bctbct,

Since you are so hung up on costs not equal to agressive union...look at these figures...tell me if they make sense to you.

Electrician: $30/hr
Mechanic: $25/hr
General Labour: $20/hr
Students: $17/hr

Min. Wage: $7.75/hr

I don't see you4 or any of management's wages listed there. Kind of hard to make a judgment with such an incomplete picture.

Management represents very little of the workforce. I do agree there is no value adding activity done by management, but without management less value adding activity would occur and change would not happen.

I never asked how little of the workforce manamgement represents, I asked what their wages are. You must think that your "value adding activity" isn't directly related to your compensation?? I agree, so how much less are you willing to work for??

 

[bctbct]

Yep, no real solution. This is why I disagree with a global economy. Everyone thinks that others make too much because of the cheap products we buy from overseas.

Wages should go up, product pricing should go up to cover it. Cheap foreign products are a temporary boost for the consumer and will be the death of the worker.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: Stunt
bctbct,

Since you are so hung up on costs not equal to agressive union...look at these figures...tell me if they make sense to you.

Electrician: $30/hr
Mechanic: $25/hr
General Labour: $20/hr
Students: $17/hr

Min. Wage: $7.75/hr

Skilled craftsman demand good wages.

Think of it like this. You cut wages for electricians 40% because thats how much you think they should make.

Over 5 years the amount of people that go to school to be an electrician declines by 50% because its not really a good job anymore.

10 years from now you will have a massive shortage of skilled electricians and you will think $30 per hour is a bargain.

Some college grads think that skilled workers make too much, so? You had a chance to be an electrician.

Good point, this is why raising minimum wage is pointless.

 

[fornax]

Originally posted by: Stunt
So Municipal elections are on up here in Canada. Unlike provincial and federal elections the people running for council, mayor, etc do not carry any party stripes. I am somewhat new to the area and don't know the people running (all old people anyway) and i don't care for any of the municipal issues/jurisdiction.

So on the ride to work I saw which signs the CAW (Canadian Auto Workers) had on the grass, I also took a look at the Union information board at work.

I will be voting against these union friendly candidates. Thank you Auto Workers and Steelworkers!!

So you'll be voting agaist them without knowing anything about their position on issues, but because a union recommended them? Your line of reasoning seems odd. Are you someone who majored in business in college because you were not capable of anything else?

 

[Stunt]

lol...zing

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Ah, he wants to keep his foot on the neck of the workers under him... After all, unions are for the working man...

Unions are for the unions. They don't care any more about the "average working man" than managment does. They exist to extort money from low wage employees and consolidate power.

<--- Former UFCW worker.

What turned you from working side by side with the common man to hating the common man?

After belonging to the same union (UFCW) and being around two others, I would have to say I agree with him on this one Dave. Unions don't fight for the comman man anymore than the politicans do, IMO. Maybe they'll regroup at some time....only time will tell.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: bctbct
Yep, no real solution. This is why I disagree with a global economy. Everyone thinks that others make too much because of the cheap products we buy from overseas.

Wages should go up, product pricing should go up to cover it. Cheap foreign products are a temporary boost for the consumer and will be the death of the worker.

Amen brother. My sig reflects that 100%!

 

[judasmachine]

In the only factory I've ever worked at, if there were any slackers, the other workers took care of them. They would quit very soon afterward. Yes these were all union workers. You don't pull your weight, you're a target.

 

[BoomerD]

Having worked union construction for most of my adult life, we never tolerated slackers. It always seemed like the only slackers on a job were those who had their jobs through company nepotism, NOT union seniority. in my trade, it has been proven many times that we are better trained, and far more efficient at what we do than our non-union counterparts, and we generally bring jobs in under budget, and under schedule. The city I live in, did away with the "little Davis-Bacon law a few years ago.(filed charter city or something similar) Contractors no longer have to pay their workers prevailing wage on city projects. Funny enough, the union contractors get the lion's share of the city jobs. Huh...imagine that...a company paying those high union wages still outbids the rats, and makes money..whodah thunk it?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Stunt
I'm with the right company then...It's a multinational with 24,000 employees.
It's all internal competition; I'll move to Europe

and yes...our losses are all related to our unions. Not allowing us to man effectively and paying enormous sums of money. The plant with a $1m loss to budget pays their mechanics $45/hr. Ridiculous...a little?

So what's your answer?

You believe highly skilled mechanics should make your $7.75 minimum wage while you make your management salary because your getting away with raping the common man?

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt
I'm with the right company then...It's a multinational with 24,000 employees.
It's all internal competition; I'll move to Europe

and yes...our losses are all related to our unions. Not allowing us to man effectively and paying enormous sums of money. The plant with a $1m loss to budget pays their mechanics $45/hr. Ridiculous...a little?

So what's your answer?

You believe highly skilled mechanics should make your $7.75 minimum wage while you make your management salary because your getting away with raping the common man?

If a highly skilled mechanic agreed to $7.75 an hour then they probably are not that highly skilled, or their need to work on their negotiating skills a little. Pesky free market paying people what they are worth.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt
I'm with the right company then...It's a multinational with 24,000 employees.
It's all internal competition; I'll move to Europe

and yes...our losses are all related to our unions. Not allowing us to man effectively and paying enormous sums of money. The plant with a $1m loss to budget pays their mechanics $45/hr. Ridiculous...a little?

So what's your answer?

You believe highly skilled mechanics should make your $7.75 minimum wage while you make your management salary because your getting away with raping the common man?

If a highly skilled mechanic agreed to $7.75 an hour then they probably are not that highly skilled, or their need to work on their negotiating skills a little. Pesky free market paying people what they are worth.

Thank you for solidifying my point.

Without checks and balances ( in this case unions) all the Employers would get away with $7.75 for the jobs, where would the highly skilled mechanics go???

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Ah, he wants to keep his foot on the neck of the workers under him... After all, unions are for the working man...

That's what they want you to think...
Unions are in the business of collecting union dues; a parasite of the working man.

Unions gave some power to the people in a time where worker's rights were exploited. It was a progressive movement which has helped create the laws we have today. Now that these worker friendly rules are now set in law, the union no longer has purpose.

Workers are no longer being exploited and in most cases the union is helping today's businesses go under. The union at my work spends all of its time trying to keep the laziest, most disciplined workers in the building. They focus on working for the incompetent and getting pissed off at people who work too hard.

I can understand why the management is against raising the pay of the more productive workers in a competitive business. The management are made up of the laziest workers and those who want nothing more than to screw over the company.

What you been smoking?

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt
I'm with the right company then...It's a multinational with 24,000 employees.
It's all internal competition; I'll move to Europe

and yes...our losses are all related to our unions. Not allowing us to man effectively and paying enormous sums of money. The plant with a $1m loss to budget pays their mechanics $45/hr. Ridiculous...a little?

So what's your answer?

You believe highly skilled mechanics should make your $7.75 minimum wage while you make your management salary because your getting away with raping the common man?

If a highly skilled mechanic agreed to $7.75 an hour then they probably are not that highly skilled, or their need to work on their negotiating skills a little. Pesky free market paying people what they are worth.

Thank you for solidifying my point.

Without checks and balances ( in this case unions) all the Employers would get away with $7.75 for the jobs, where would the highly skilled mechanics go???

That is completely untrue, if that were the case than anyone not in a union would be making minimum wage. The checks and balances are the free market and competition.

 

[Ferocious]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Ah, he wants to keep his foot on the neck of the workers under him... After all, unions are for the working man...

That's what they want you to think...
Unions are in the business of collecting union dues; a parasite of the working man.

Unions gave some power to the people in a time where worker's rights were exploited. It was a progressive movement which has helped create the laws we have today. Now that these worker friendly rules are now set in law, the union no longer has purpose.

Workers are no longer being exploited and in most cases the union is helping today's businesses go under. The union at my work spends all of its time trying to keep the laziest, most disciplined workers in the building. They focus on working for the incompetent and getting pissed off at people who work too hard.

I can understand why the management is against raising the pay of the more productive workers in a competitive business. The management are made up of the laziest workers and those who want nothing more than to screw over the company.

What you been smoking?

Really. Unions for the most part are non-issue in the workplace except when it comes contract time.

With the leverage of having plants all around the world...why is management agreeing to wages one day in negotiations and then the next day are crying about it? Sounds like bad upper management.

From my experiences what this OP seems to be experiencing is an environment where some bad workers sense weak management and are taking advantage of it. This happens in many shops...regardless of any collective bargaining agreement. Unfortunately when weak management has been present too long...they typically have permanently lost respect and need to be replaced.

I'm certain insubordination isn't allowed and ultimately management has the right to manage. If both true...then weak management is present and that needs to be addressed. If either is untrue than the top brass needs to be canned and replaced before the next negotiations and that ancient contract language changed.

Workers do NOT want to see the lazy cuddled. Regardless of any collective agreement, workers respect good firm managment. They like seeing lazy workers dealt with. The want a sense of order and they want to be led and they want their company to succeed.

 

[Ferocious]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt
I'm with the right company then...It's a multinational with 24,000 employees.
It's all internal competition; I'll move to Europe

and yes...our losses are all related to our unions. Not allowing us to man effectively and paying enormous sums of money. The plant with a $1m loss to budget pays their mechanics $45/hr. Ridiculous...a little?

So what's your answer?

You believe highly skilled mechanics should make your $7.75 minimum wage while you make your management salary because your getting away with raping the common man?

If a highly skilled mechanic agreed to $7.75 an hour then they probably are not that highly skilled, or their need to work on their negotiating skills a little. Pesky free market paying people what they are worth.

Thank you for solidifying my point.

Without checks and balances ( in this case unions) all the Employers would get away with $7.75 for the jobs, where would the highly skilled mechanics go???

That is completely untrue, if that were the case than anyone not in a union would be making minimum wage. The checks and balances are the free market and competition.

You're both wrong. The truth is a negotiated middle agreed on by both sides.

Many places pay more than they would because of the threat of unions.

Without unions...workers typically get paid the LEAST amount the market will tolerate...NOT the fairest amount...with a bigger slice going to the upper echelon.