My take on the Florida Election/Selection Manipulation

[thebestMAX]

As I have been hearing it, Florida law only allows a manual recount if there was a problem with the voting machines.

No problems with them until this little fact was brought to the public view and now all of a sudden, There were machine problems in one of the contested counties.

I think it is pretty cut and dried just as I feel if the "Chad", a term maybe 1 in 10,000 had ever heard before last week, Is not pushed all the way out, the vote is no vote, not registered, voted for someone else, too stupid to really vote and so on. A dimple or pregnant chad could easily be a change of mind or a wrong insertion, pull out and re insertion for the right candidate. (Sound like a failed attempt at an*l sex wit an unwilling female partner to me) Like a "little bit pregnant" You are or are not, voted or didnt, made a mistake or not. Lets not change the rules after the game, please.

Lets stall for some more time so AL can get in and if he does it wil be by the "back door"

 

[woodie1]

Palm Beach is now asking a Judge to let a dimple or pegnant chad count as a vote. This means they will have to start all over on the hand count.

Seems you can't change your mind.

 

[DefRef]

Does anyone else notice that the Gore forces are constantly trying to revise what qualifies as a vote for them? Now they want the slightest dent to be called in their favor. Sheesh...

When they say, "We just want a fair and complete count.", they mean, "We're gonna keep crying and whining and suing until we can fabricate enough votes to steal this election."

Makes you proud to have voted for him, don't it?

 

[ride525]

<< As I have been hearing it, Florida law only allows a manual recount if there was a problem with the voting machines. >>



Well, that's the opinion of the Secretary of State. The Florida Attorney General issued a differing opinion. I'm certain that this will go to at least the Florida Supreme Court.

And the Secretary of State allowed the manual recounts in the votes she certified yesterday.

 

[Michael]

Of course she allowed the manual counts. Although they were not neccessary, they were completed by the deadline. The otehr counts are not neccessary and have not been completed by the deadline.

At least that'll probably be her view <grin>.

This will go to the Florida Supreme Court for sure. I actually feel that it should go to a county court first. Supreme Courts are, in my mind, the final court of appeal. The process of arguing before a lower level judge who makes a ruling is important in setting out the basic arguments and law being cited.

Michael

 

[ride525]

<< Of course she allowed the manual counts. >>



Well, she just said no manual counts except in cases of machine problems. Then she certifies results with manual counts included.

 

[Russ]

<< The Florida Attorney General issued a differing opinion. >>



Of course he did, he's Bore's chairman in the state. Before you come back with &quot;well, she's on Bush's team&quot; you should know that the law itself is on her side. It does state that the machines have to be malfunctioning in order to call for a hand count. There is ZERO evidence that they were.

The additional votes found in the 1% sampling CANNOT be considered evidence of a malfunction because the criteria changed mid-stream and therefore, the results are tainted. In a criminal court, they'd be immediately suppressed as evidence.

The attempt to force a &quot;dimple&quot; to be counted as a vote brings the democrats attempt at manipulation to a new low. This is completely ludicrous. For one thing, there is NO requirement anywhere that a voter cast a vote in every race on the ballot. They are free to skip races if they please, and many do.

How many started to vote, and decided to skip the race, or changed their mind mid-stream?

Again, the ONLY fair way to tabulate a vote is the most OBJECTIVE way. The only truly objective methodology is machine tabulation.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Russ]

<< Then she certifies results with manual counts included. >>



The only ones that contained manual counts that were certified were those that were in by the 5 PM deadline mandated by Florida State law. This is not a change in her position.

Russ, NCNE

 

[ride525]

<< The only ones that contained manual counts that were certified were those that were in by the 5 PM deadline mandated by Florida State law. This is not a change in her position. >>



Whew, we are back to disagreeing again... I was getting worried yesterday.

She first says no maual recounts except in cases of machine malfunction. Then she accepts manual recounts in her certified results. (Yeah, I know they made it in by the deadline, but don't you see the potential conflict of saying you can't have manual recounts, then accepting them.) I'm surprised this fact hasn't come out in the liberal, left-wing, news media.

I'm sure the Florida State Supreme Court will ultimately be asked to decide this, among a HOST of other issues.

 

[Russ]

<< She first says no maual recounts except in cases of machine malfunction. Then she accepts manual recounts in her certified results. >>



Actually, you have the sequence of events reversed. She committed to accepting the manual recounts before she researched the law and discovered that the democrats were attempting to circumvent it. Only then did she clamp down.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Raspewtin]

<< that the law itself is on her side >>



It depends how you see that. The judge's use of the word &quot;arbitrarily&quot; can seriously question if the law is on her side. I think she knows this, hence her push to get everything bumped to the Supreme Court.



<< It does state that the machines have to be malfunctioning in order to call for a hand count. There is ZERO evidence that they were. >>




The second machine recount in some counties revealed different results than the first machine count. That's all the proof the Democrats will need. It's also excellent proof for the courts, who will have no choice is light of such evidence. This is not the 1% hand count I'm talking about, but the full second machine count.



<< 5 PM deadline mandated by Florida State law >>



Florida law is very fuzzy here. In one place it says votes after the deadline must not be counted but it also says &quot;may&quot; not be counted. Also she could have made the deadline the same as for the overseas ballots, lending some legimacy to her need for the 5 pm deadline. She has to wait for those ballots anyway. Just the fact that she has to wait for the overseas ballots and still enforced a seperate earlier deadline for all the other votes will kill the court's opinion of the real value of her &quot;deadline&quot; and obviously partisan tactics. This dumb deadline she's enforcing, especially if she doesn't count the new hand counts, will (1) hurt the Republican case in Florida Supreme Court severly (2) make political martyrs of the Democratic counties in Florida, having a big impact in next election against the Republican party, and (3) possibly hurt the Republican control of the state of Florida. She should have made the deadline in line with the overseas ballots, and then would have a reasonable argument in court. Her first smart move was to request everything to the supreme court.



<< The only truly objective methodology is machine tabulation. >>



I agree with this. However an inaccurate machine is useless regardless of how objective it is. I say let the hand count go through. There is both a Republican and Democrat overseeing the counting. Hopefully for the American people, both party representatives will be vigilant.

 

[ride525]

<< Actually, you have the sequence of events reversed. She committed to accepting the manual recounts before she researched the law and discovered that the democrats were attempting to circumvent it. Only then did she clamp down. >>



Actually I DO have my sequence of events in the correct order.
1. She said no manual recounts except in cases of machine malfuncion.
2. She accepts and certifies the results including manual recounts.

There may be a step before my first on above, where she orginally said she would accept manual recounts. So, adding your step before my two, here's the sequence:
1. She commits to accepting manual recounts.
2. She said no manual recounts except in cases of machine malfuncion.
3. She accepts and certifies the results including manual recounts.

Hmmmm....Double Reversal ??

 

[Otis8]

&quot;It depends how you see that. The judge's use of the word &quot;arbitrarily&quot; can seriously question if the law is on her side. I think she knows this, hence her push to get everything bumped to the Supreme Court.&quot;

No, it actually means that she has to give SOME reason why she will deny them. I have a good feeling that she can come up with something that will hold up against the scrutiny of Florida's Supreme Court, which is where this particular case will probably end up.

 

[Michael]

The different machine counts were caused by two things:

1) Not all ballots were run through the first time. There were some missed.

2) It is an accepted fact that machine counts of punched ballots are not 100% accurate. The inaccuracy is accepted because of the time and cost savings. I think machines are used in every Florida county and many had small differences from one count to another count.

3) I have years of hand count experience. I am amazed to find that one manual recount is enough. I would have expected a standard of two manual counts with a thrid one required in the first two differ by a set percentage, otherwise take the average of the two.

As best I can tell, PBC has not shown that their machines were not working. Although they were welcome, in my opinion, to do manual counts, they had a deadline to hit. No facts and circumstances seem to exist to make missing the deadline acceptable.

The one area where I have seen some argument over is the line about results changing an election. It will be very interesting to see the Florida Supreme Court's ruling on 1) the need for the manual recounts (the county judge did agree that the law emphasises a need for finality) 2) the difference between a local election (deadlines are not as important) and a state-wide post (not imposing the deadline on on location may be prejudicial to the votes of others in other counties).

If I understand it right, there really is no grounds to appeal a Florida Supreme Court decision on Florida election law to the Federal Supreme Court.

It is going to get very dicey for gore if there are no manual recount results ready by the time the absentee ballots are counted. Last I checked, PBC hasn't even started yet. Broward county changing it's mind after the deadline (I wonder if they noted anything in their initial filings) is also an interesting angle.

Michael

 

[Raspewtin]

<< Not all ballots were run through the first time. There were some missed. >>




I didn't know this. Were the votes that were missed from specific counties or just late votes in general?

 

[Michael]

If you go back and check the articles that came out when the PBC recounts were first being discussed, you'll see that the total number of ballots in the first count and the first recount are different. There were a bunch of counties that &quot;found&quot; ballots for teh recount.

Michael

 

[ride525]

I don't know if they were really &quot;found&quot;. Some suggest that the second reading gets more, since some of the &quot;chad&quot; has cleared, allowing the machine to read.

 

[sweetrobin]

You know whats interesting .. not all states make their electorial voters vote for who wins that state anyway ... what happens after we go through months of this stuff thinking that Florida is going to be the decider and then get that solved only to get to the electorial vote and someone not vote for who their state picked and then we have to go through this all again ... cause you know a certain candidate who is unwilling to lose .. and has proved he will do anything to win ... not mentioning any names but we all know who I'm talking about.

 

[ride525]

They both want to win....BAD....

Bush (I trust you the people, I trust the states) goes to two FEDERAL courts to try and get Florida State's manual recounts ruled invalid.

Gore selectively picks where he requests manual recounts.

One will &quot;win&quot; the election. But no matter who wins, the other side will raise doubts.

 

[Russ]

<< The judge's use of the word &quot;arbitrarily&quot; can seriously question if the law is on her side. >>



The Judge's decision to copout by pandering to both sides does not alter the language of the statute.



<< The second machine recount in some counties revealed different results than the first machine count. >>



Of course it did. As it would in ANY area of the country. In order for the democrats to use that as evidence that there was a malfunction, they would have to prove that the discrepancy was statistically significant. They cannot, because it was not.



<< However an inaccurate machine is useless regardless of how objective it is. >>



In a sampling as large as an entire county, any inaccuracies will swing both ways, so this becomes an irrelevant argument.

The democrats have no legitimate case. They should simply take their lumps and concede, so the country can move on.

Russ, NCNE

 

[cxim]

in pinellas county (St Pete ) they &quot;found 1200&quot; ballots on the 1st recount. &quot;They&quot; decided that someone had screwed up &amp; counted some 600 ballots 2x rather than the 1200 that turned up.

Gore picked up some 400 votes. Pinellas was so embarassed that they went back &amp; did 2 more recounts, for a total of 3 recounts.

This was in absentee mail-in ballots. The repbs reviewed all the envelopes &amp; cross checked aginst the AB ballot mail out list &amp; found no significant discrepancy.

These kinds of screwups occur in most elections.

 

[Russ]

Amazing what lawsuits and intimidation tactics from the democrats can accomplish:



<< In a ruling on the chad issue, Palm Beach Circuit Judge Jorge Labarga said county election officials have authority to decide whether a &quot;dimpled chad&quot; ballot -- where the punchcard was not perforated -- constitutes a vote. The county then informed the state it would proceed with a hand recount. >>





<< Broward County, which Gore carried overwhelmingly in the initial election, voted today to recount its ballots. The 2-1 vote by election officials reverses their earlier decision. >>



Russ, NCNE

 

[Russ]

<< This process isn't doing any damage to the country and we have plenty of time. >>



Apparently you believe that international relationships, financial jitters, polarization inside our own country, and the rest of the world laughing at us are not important.



<< The fact that Brother Jeb is the Head Bubba in Florida only makes in more important to use all avenues at their disposal to make sure there wasn't any dirty work done to swing the election in little Dubaya's favor. >>



I'm amazed that you could possibly believe that has any relevance at all. He immediately recused himself from the process. You're smarter than that, so I'll have to assume that the above was just another Red Dawn pot stir.

There is far more evidence of &quot;dirty work&quot; coming from the left than the Republican's, not just in Florida, but accross the entire nation.

Russ, NCNE