My search (saga) for a big screen TV

[Hulk]

Okay so I'm finally ready to jump into this HDTV thing. I've finished my basement and I'm ready to put my home theater together. I'm just finishing building a HTPC that will use the new LG combo HD-DVD/BR/DVD drive.

I'm going to be sitting about 9 feet from the screen and have ruled out front and rear projection. I don't like the picture for rear projection and my wife doesn't like the big box. Front projectors look pretty darn good but I don't like having to keep the lights down whenever I want to view.

So I'm left with LCD and plasma. My ultimate TV would be the 60" Pioneer Elite Kuro. Checked it out yesterday at Best Buy and I have to admit it is stunning. But so is the price. I can't spend $6000 on a TV.

The Panasonic 58" 700U looks pretty good too but I'm not really liking the 350+ calibrated power usage on that one. Yeah I know it's not a big deal and I'm not a tree hugger or anything but it still bothers me when a 52" LCD draws around 100 Watts after calibration.

On the LCD front I checked out the XBR4, Sammy 81, 71, and 65, as well as the Sony W3000. All in the 52" size. It's so hard to get a good grip on how they actually look in the store because the XBR4 and the 81 had dedicated feeds from BR players while the rest were running off component connections that were split about 50 times.

I think the XBR4 looks the best too me, followed by the 81, then the 71 and the W3000. I'm definitely not seeing the 81 being worth the money. So I guess if I'm going to spend some money I'd go for the XBR4 and if I want to save a few bucks the 71 or the W3000. I only mention the W3000 because I'm not sure I can deal with that glossy screen on the Sammy 71.

I'm curious as you how people on this forum see these LCD TV's?

I'm ready to buy but can't seem to pull the trigger so a little advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[tyanni]

I've heard good things about the XBR series (I was leaning towards the XBR4 myself before I opted for a dog instead of a LCD). The Samsung 81 is cool, and I suspect LED backlights will be in most future LCDs, but I am wary to go that route right now, especially given the huge price premium. The 71s also got good reviews. I'd go to avsforums and check out what they have to say, but I don't think you can go wrong with the Sony. My problem with the W3000 is that it doesn't do 120Hz, which I considered a requirement when I was looking.

 

[spidey07]

WHY are you ruling out rear projection? Tell the wife to get her panties out of a wad and get the biggest rear projection SXRD you can afford. At 9 feet you are forced into front or rear projection unless you want to shell out the money. At your distance 52" is too small.

 

[tyanni]

Spidey -

Are you sure? Everything I've read suggests 52" is fine at 9 feet.

 

[VIAN]

If you don't like to lower the lights your only option is LCD. Plasma has too much reflection for better picture over LCD.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: tyanni
Spidey -

Are you sure? Everything I've read suggests 52" is fine at 9 feet.

Yes, I am sure. This is the rub, you can read all you want on the intarweb and there is a TON of misinformation out there. Buyer beware.

 

[Hulk]

Thanks for the replies.

Besides my wife I really don't like the picture of the rear projection displays. I know they have gotten a lot better over the last few years but they always look a bit flat next to the better plasma and LCD units.

As for the size I think a lot of that has to do with personal preference. I've stood about 9' from a bunch of displays and when they get to be over about 60" or so my eyes do too much wandering around the screen for my liking. I guess it's just me but I'm not into the gigantic screen thing. Perhaps it's because growing up we had a 26" TV and that was considered enormous in the late '70's and early '80's. At least it was enormous on my block.

The lack of 120Hz processing is definitely a drawback of the W3000. I guess it's going to come down to the Samsung 71 and the XBR4.

 

[tyanni]

Spidey -

I don't mean to harp on this, and I'm certainly willing to go off board to discuss this, but I think it would help the OP and I am sure others are interested. Can you point me in the direction of some of the better materials you've read to determine what the optimal size is for a given viewing distance?

Hulk -

I'd really recommend going to www.avsforum.com and checking out some of the comments on the XBR and 71. Its a lot of reading, and you do need to be careful not to scare yourself out of buying ANY LCD or Plasma since the people there can find flaws in every model out there, but it helps to determine the pros and cons of each model.

Tim

 

[Hulk]

tyanni -

I've been over to those forums and you are right about scaring yourself out of buying ANY LCD! It's as if those guys are beta testing flawed products.

"Yeah the Toshiba is pretty good if you don't get one with the green push"
"The Samsungs are pretty good if you can deal with the triple ball effect and the glossy screen that you can use as a mirror when the TV is off"
"The Sony's do have a great picture if you get one without the clouding issues"

Also since the posts with all the information on a specific TV are usually hundreds and hundreds of pages long with some good info spread out about every 10 pages so you've really gotta have some patience to wade through them.

I'm going to go out and try to calibrate the Samsung 71 and XBR4 to the specs most people are recommending and then take it from there I think.

 

[Hulk]

If anyone is interested I had another viewing session last night.

I really checked out the rear projectors and wanted to like them. They look good but I just prefer the LCD's. Same for the plamas, except for the Pioneers which are out of my budget.

Next I compared the W3000 Sony and 65F Samsung to the XBR4 and 71F series Samsung. Just to see if I could detect the 120Hz motion processing. I've read a lot about some people not noticing it, some people noticing it and liking it, other people noticing it and not liking it, etc...

Well I could definitely notice the lack of stuttering effect on motion and am definitely going to buy a set with that feature. The stuttering is really annoying to me.

So after a long search it has come down to the Sony 52XBR4 and the Samsung 5271. Although I'd like to save a $600 or $700 on the Samsung I think I like the matte screen on the Sony and the picture looks just a little better to me. There just seems to be more detail in the shadow area of the blacks on the Sony and the artifacting seems to be better controlled on the Sony.

After my long search if I had to rate these sets in order of descending price my list would go like this.

1. Sony XBR4
2. Samsung 71
3. Sony W3000
4. Samsung 65

The Samsung 65 and Sony W3000 are very close in performance to my eye. The Sony has the matte screen which I prefer but the Sammy is a few hundred bucks cheaper.

I have not included the Samsung LED backlighting 81 series on the list because I feel the XBR4 provide equal performance without the glossy screen and are much cheaper.

I do believe variable LED backlighting is the future but the technology needs to be refined a bit more and the prices need to come down. It seems that LED backlighting is the last hurdle for LCD's to overcome as that will take care of their black level issues.

I will report back after I've bought the set.

 

[tyanni]

Congrats on finding an LCD you like. Come back after you've watched it for a while and tell us what you think of it - I'm interested in seeing comments from someone who is normal and not willing to post in/follow a 300+ post-count thread

Tim

 

[Hulk]

I will definitely follow up. I have a feeling that the a lot of the viewing experience is going to depend on the source material. Of course standard definition TV broadcasts will look pretty bad. Upsampled DVD's should be pretty good depending on the DVD. And I think HD-DVDs and BR's will be good to excellent depending on the disc.

I have noticed that movies that were originally digital in nature usually look great. Digital animation movies have the advantage of having perfect resolution and no noise due to the fact that they are digitally created. This has the added benefit of being easier for the encoder to deal with. It doesn't waste bits trying to encode random noise that is not predictable.

The next best viewing experience I've seen are movies that were originally shot in high definition using high definition cameras, right to digital storage. No analog to digital processing.

Finally we have the huge catalog of films. These should also look great if the original footage looks great, which it usually does. And even 35mm film has more than 1920x1080 resolution in it.

So I think the problem is that the film isn't cleaned and restored properly and the compressionists or the compressors themselves (H.264 especially) are quite up to the task at this point in time. I have no doubt they will get better and better though.

I also have no doubt that the movie houses are already scanning the old catalogs to a very high resolution so that when 2160p becomes mainstream they will be ready to re-release their catalog in "ultra hi-def" or whatever they will be calling it.

 

[Hulk]

I finally pulled the trigger and ordered the Sony 52XBR4 from Amazon for $3199 shipped. Since I used my World Mastercard the warranty automatically gets extended to 2 years.

The TV should arrive early next week.

The HTPC is up and running so I'm all ready.

 

[daveymark]

was the 50" pioneer kuro @ BB out of the question? simply the BEST 50" out there for that price. $1999 was a no brainer for me.

 

[tyanni]

Hulk -

I bit the bullet too and got a 40XBR4 from CC when it dropped to $1999 this week. Couldn't resist the deal. Sonystyle has a 2 year warranty for 59.99, so I'm planning on getting that when it arrives. Hope you enjoy your 52 inch.

 

[Hulk]

Originally posted by: daveymark
was the 50" pioneer kuro @ BB out of the question? simply the BEST 50" out there for that price. $1999 was a no brainer for me.

That set is definitely impressive but I wanted 1080p since I'll be using this as a computer monitor quite a bit. Besides the higher resolution for the LCD I also didn't want to have to worry about burn in with the computer.

But yes it was a hard choice between the two.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Hulk

Originally posted by: daveymark
was the 50" pioneer kuro @ BB out of the question? simply the BEST 50" out there for that price. $1999 was a no brainer for me.

That set is definitely impressive but I wanted 1080p since I'll be using this as a computer monitor quite a bit. Besides the higher resolution for the LCD I also didn't want to have to worry about burn in with the computer.

But yes it was a hard choice between the two.

Hulk,

I have to congratulate you. You took the crap/misinformation on the intarweb with a grain of salt. You personally looked at the displays, spent some time with them and ultimately chose what you liked. So many folks suffer analysis paralysis over what should be an easy decision.

Kudos to you for doing what so many don't. Actually spending time watching the display/TV.

Welcome to the world of HD, enjoy it and here's to your next set.:beer:

 

[Hulk]

Spidey07,

Thanks. It is kind of a harrowing experience but you're right. In the end my wife and I have to actually sit down and watch the set. I didn't spend much time looking for banding or green push or triple ball effect I just watched and decided if I liked the picture or not.

The set came in today and I have to say I was very impressed with the Amazon service. I was a bit concerned about not having the option for an easy local return on such a large and expensive item.

Here's how it went. On Wednesday I received a call from the local delivery company telling me my TV was ready and what would be a good delivery day. I set it up for Friday and they said to call Friday morning. At that point they would know the delivery schedule for the day and could give me more information and the driver's cell phone number so I could call him whenever I liked to see when he would arrive.

I called Friday morning and learned I was delivery 6 out of 11. I was working at home so I really didn't need to call the driver. At about 1PM the driver called me and said they should be there in about a half hour. They arrived about 45 minutes later and two guys carried the TV into the house. They asked me where I wanted it can they carried to the location and set it up. When putting the batteries in the remote they noticed the tabs on the battery cover were bent so the cover wouldn't go on. I asked them to wait while I called Amazon and they said no problem. No attitude or anything. They were happy to wait and honestly seem concerned about my satisfaction. I expected them to be gruff and ready to get out immediately, basically running out the door. This couldn't be further from the truth.

While I called Amazon the TV was auto scanning channels. The Amazon rep said don't return the TV (of course!) and a representative would be contacting me to send out a new remote control. The delivery guys patiently waited though the entire time on hold and with the representative and were very pleasant.

I can't stress how nice the delivery guys were. Here's an example. When they picked up the TV the new guy's fingers were touching the screen a bit. Normally I don't like to tell people how to do their jobs but I just had to speak up. I said, "hey please watch your fingers there keep them on the bezel not the LCD screen itself." Instead of throwing me some attitude he say "oh sorry about that" and moved his hand position.

After checking out the TV with picture and black screen, just looking for obvious pixel defects I was satisfied and told them I was good and they left. An excellent purchase from start to finish. That was easier than buying locally and having to lug it around myself!

My wife and I watched "Next" tonight and I couldn't be happier with the size of the set and the picture quality. We love it. All I did was set the picture to "Cinema" from the standard "Vivid" setting and I was set to go. "Cinema" looks amazing. The colors are a little more muted, more mellow, just a lot more realistic and pleasing to us. The picture is amazing. I love the 120Hz motion compensation on the "normal" setting. It gets rid of all of the stuttering on pans.

Of course used as a monitor it's amazing. LCDs are naturally good at that. I did have to tweak font sizes and clear type a bit but after doing that the Windows icons and text looked amazing.

One of the coolest things is being able to watch the instant movies from Netflix. Of course they are only standard definition but they look quite good. The processing on this set does a much better job than my brother's Sony W3000 with standard definition content. I have a very fast internet connection, doing about 2.3MB/sec so I'm getting the Netflix movies streamed at their highest quality. In short they are definitely watchable.

Standard definition TV is not bad and the high def channels look amazing. We watched Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy in 720p and they were truly astounding.

If you are looking to get into HDTV I suggest doing your research. Decide how you will get the content because that is a very important consideration in determining overall picture quality. I'm using the HTPC I built with combo DVD/HD-DVD/BR drive, streaming content from the net, and content from the hard drive. I also have Comcast HD.

I also suggest not putting too much faith in the online forums that ONLY talk about the flaws of every monitor. Look at them for yourself and decide that way.

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: spidey07
WHY are you ruling out rear projection? Tell the wife to get her panties out of a wad and get the biggest rear projection SXRD you can afford. At 9 feet you are forced into front or rear projection unless you want to shell out the money. At your distance 52" is too small.

I'm currently sitting 11 feet from a 50" Samsung 5063 DLP and it isn't too small at all.

 

[biggestmuff]

Originally posted by: tyanni
Spidey -

I don't mean to harp on this, and I'm certainly willing to go off board to discuss this, but I think it would help the OP and I am sure others are interested. Can you point me in the direction of some of the better materials you've read to determine what the optimal size is for a given viewing distance?

Tim

http://myhometheater.homestead...istancecalculator.html

 

[Jumpem]

61" Samsung DLP for $2k. A 1080P LCD or Plasma that size will cost much more.

And to add to the discussion, I sit about 7' back from mine.

 

[Hulk]

It's funny how the market changes. 15 years ago I spend $3000 on a computer. I would never have considered spending that much money on a TV. Now I spent $3200 on a TV and would never consider spending $3000 on a computer. Keep in mind that $3000 was for a Pentium 90 without a monitor. It was a Gateway. The point is it's funny how some items get cheaper and others more expensive but today you really get a lot of electronics value for the money.

I have learned a few things from the buying experience.
First you really have to get out and see the various display technologies for yourself. It's good to do your research. See what the "experts" are saying are the bets displays, see what the strengths and weaknesses of each technology is. That at least gives you an idea of what to look for. i.e. black levels with LCD's, screen glare and brightness in plasmas, those are just examples. The research also narrows down your choices somewhat and allows you to see if you agree with concensus or not. The point is to determine what looks best to you.
Second is that screen size is also subjective. Some people want a really huge screen and it's great there are big screens available. I learned that I am not one of those people. At the 8 or 9' I'm sitting from the screen 52" is perfect. Almost too big. I don't like to have my eyes wandering around the screen too much.
Third is that due to the amazing competition there are quite a few good TVs in all technologies out there. If fed a good signal they all can produce a stunning image.

I spent some more time with my XBR4 last night and did a little further tweaking. I like cinema mode with motion compensation on "standard" and film enhance on "auto 2." This basically decodes the film pulldown correctly. I have all of the other stuff set to "off." Backlight is as low as it goes.

 

[Hulk]

Well I've had my 52XBR4 for over a month now and I thought I'd report back and let you know what I think. The short story is I love it. I was afraid that the great display I saw in the store wouldn't translate when I got home but fortunately I was wrong and in my home environment with the ability to tweak I've ended up with a better picture than I thought possible.

I am using two different sources for this TV. A HTPC and a Comcast HD cable box.

First the cable box. Standard definition channels look pretty good. Some of the other LCDs I've seen with SD look like absolute much in my opinion. The electronics in this TV are definitely doing something good as the picture looks pretty darn good. Much better than my brother's Sony W3000.

The HD channels range from good to eye popping excellent depending on the source of course (hey I'm rhyming like Underdog). American Idol or House are amazing and so is MTV as are a lot of HD channels. It's kind of funny since HD is in it's infancy there will be an amazing broadcast and then a crappy looking SD commercial then a great looking HD one.

Upscaled DVDs from the HTPC also look very good. HD-DVDs and Blu-Rays look fantastic. As you would expect from 1080p content on a 1080p set.

It also looks great as a computer monitor, once I got the font set rigth with the right clear type setting. I'm typing on it right now from about 9 feet away and I can see the text perfectly and I don't have them set insanely large.

I paid $3200 from Amazon and two weeks after purchase the price dropped to $3000. I e-mailed Amazon about the price drop and they immediately credited me $200. I have nothing but good things to say about the Amazon purchasing experience.

So what could be better? Well if I switch the input from computer to cable box and then back to computer the display will always reset to 1280x1024. Not a big deal to change back but a hassle. I don't know if this is a computer problem or the monitor should be ablel to be set to be detected as 1080p all the time.

Of course black levels can always be better. They are darn good right now but I suspect when the LED backlighting thing reallyl gets underway these LCD panels will make the final jump to really high contrast ratios.

Anyway I definitely give the XBR4 TVs a great recommendation if you are considering one. I'm pretty picky and living with this set on a day to day basis has been a pleasure.

Thanks again to everyone that helped me out with this purchase.

 

[Muadib]

So you got a 52XBR4 for $200?:shocked: Deal of the century!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hulk]

Originally posted by: Muadib
So you got a 52XBR4 for $200?:shocked: Deal of the century!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah that would be the deal of the century. I fixed the typo. Still I think $3k shipped is a pretty good price on the 52XBR4.