My Professor's Paper

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Capitalism is rightly credited with having unleashed enormous forces of productivity and technology. But it has also reduced much of the world to ruin and squalor.

One doesn't need to read any further than this to see how off base the author is. There was no "reduce" as there was no "have" to reduce from. Sure, one of Capitalism's supposed "failures" is that some people get left behind in the system.... but then again, the system is about tangible and objective results - not subjective equality... (so then it's not really a failure in a true sense)

Meh - looks like standard ivory tower BS...
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
The only "failure" of capitalism is that people became so enthralled with it that they convinced themselves it's a form of government, instead of simply a way to run the economy. It's a good system, but it's not a magical solution to everything. Our decades long conflict with communism convinced people that capitalism was in fact a perfect system for every situation, when I think most honest economists will admit that it's not.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Rainsford
The only "failure" of capitalism is that people became so enthralled with it that they convinced themselves it's a form of government, instead of simply a way to run the economy. It's a good system, but it's not a magical solution to everything. Our decades long conflict with communism convinced people that capitalism was in fact a perfect system for every situation, when I think most honest economists will admit that it's not.

I think that might be a relatively fair assessment if it didn't reach quite that far. I'm not sure it's quite that direct of a cause/effect situation but I could agree that hints of it are present.
 

Matthiasa

Diamond Member
May 4, 2009
5,755
23
81
As long as he wasn't your economics proffessor there's no real problem with it in and of itself. I mean other then it being way out of touch with reality but still.
It is however to be expected from one who is a professor of philosophy, with his musings on what he thinks would be an ideal word, that in reality would fail to function as all such systems in the past have tended to do.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Capitalism is rightly credited with having unleashed enormous forces of productivity and technology. But it has also reduced much of the world to ruin and squalor.

One doesn't need to read any further than this to see how off base the author is. There was no "reduce" as there was no "have" to reduce from. Sure, one of Capitalism's supposed "failures" is that some people get left behind in the system.... but then again, the system is about tangible and objective results - not subjective equality... (so then it's not really a failure in a true sense)

Meh - looks like standard ivory tower BS...

Seconded.

Empirically speaking every country that opened itself to capitalism has seen gdp/capita and poverty rates drop. But why bring statistics and hard data into the debate ...


Plus my first hand account of the glorious communist system is enough to tell the guy that he's living in lala land. My own and just about everyone else's quality of live has improved when my former country went from communist to capitalist. The only people who lost anything were the more-equal-than-you party members.


Finally lulz at the mention of Goldman Sachs also; I know I attended many world domination meetings during my tenure there.

Goldman hires the best talent out there and those people make a ton of money. Once you have enough money, the prospect of working 80-100 hours a week gets less and less attractive and many people end up taking government positions in finance. That or it's a huge jewish conspiracy to take over the world. Use the occham's razor.

 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Originally posted by: Pippy
Article Here

I knew he was anti-capitalism but I didn't think he would blame all of the world's problem on it.

Just did a quick google and it looks like his doctorate is in some sort of humanities.. I think its safe to say that he's completely unqualified to speak about economic matters.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,459
6,689
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Capitalism is rightly credited with having unleashed enormous forces of productivity and technology. But it has also reduced much of the world to ruin and squalor.

One doesn't need to read any further than this to see how off base the author is. There was no "reduce" as there was no "have" to reduce from. Sure, one of Capitalism's supposed "failures" is that some people get left behind in the system.... but then again, the system is about tangible and objective results - not subjective equality... (so then it's not really a failure in a true sense)

Meh - looks like standard ivory tower BS...

After four centuries of triumph as the dominant mode of global development, capitalism has furnished for itself a world in which one out of two human beings lives on $2 per day or less, and more than one in three still lacks access to a toilet. Most children in the world never complete their education, and most will live out their lives without dependable medical care. As the world economic crisis deepens, already deplorable conditions in the Third World will only deteriorate further.

Meh - said the man in the ivory tower. Meh - some get left behind.

Yeah, some do.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,459
6,689
126
Originally posted by: Matthiasa
As long as he wasn't your economics proffessor there's no real problem with it in and of itself. I mean other then it being way out of touch with reality but still.
It is however to be expected from one who is a professor of philosophy, with his musings on what he thinks would be an ideal word, that in reality would fail to function as all such systems in the past have tended to do.

You talk of being way out of touch with reality and yet you not only don't say in what way he is out of touch nor do you tell us what reality is, while at the same time you claim that some new system which I nowhere see him proposing will fail just as all systems in the past have tended to and of which surely capitalism is also one, that is, one likely to fail.

To me your thinking is incoherent.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,459
6,689
126
h: Empirically speaking every country that opened itself to capitalism has seen gdp/capita and poverty rates drop. But why bring statistics and hard data into the debate ...

M: After four centuries of triumph as the dominant mode of global development, capitalism has furnished for itself a world in which one out of two human beings lives on $2 per day or less, and more than one in three still lacks access to a toilet. Most children in the world never complete their education, and most will live out their lives without dependable medical care. As the world economic crisis deepens, already deplorable conditions in the Third World will only deteriorate further.

h: Plus my first hand account of the glorious communist system is enough to tell the guy that he's living in lala land. My own and just about everyone else's quality of live has improved when my former country went from communist to capitalist. The only people who lost anything were the more-equal-than-you party members.

M: I guess if you catch pneumonia all the world forever after looks like a place trying to give you pneumonia. But I saw nothing in what he wrote to suggest he recommends pneumonia.

h: Finally lulz at the mention of Goldman Sachs also; I know I attended many world domination meetings during my tenure there.

M: I saw no mention of those pneumonia meetings.

h: Goldman hires the best talent out there and those people make a ton of money. Once you have enough money, the prospect of working 80-100 hours a week gets less and less attractive and many people end up taking government positions in finance. That or it's a huge jewish conspiracy to take over the world. Use the occham's razor.

M: Using Occam's razor I discovered the Tikkum is a Jewish thingi and doubtless part of the conspiracy to take over the world.


 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,459
6,689
126
Originally posted by: Hacp
Originally posted by: Pippy
Article Here

I knew he was anti-capitalism but I didn't think he would blame all of the world's problem on it.

Just did a quick google and it looks like his doctorate is in some sort of humanities.. I think its safe to say that he's completely unqualified to speak about economic matters.

I guess you majored in forums and are qualified to speak here, eh?
 

Red Irish

Guest
Mar 6, 2009
1,605
0
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Capitalism is rightly credited with having unleashed enormous forces of productivity and technology. But it has also reduced much of the world to ruin and squalor.

One doesn't need to read any further than this to see how off base the author is. There was no "reduce" as there was no "have" to reduce from. Sure, one of Capitalism's supposed "failures" is that some people get left behind in the system.... but then again, the system is about tangible and objective results - not subjective equality... (so then it's not really a failure in a true sense)

Meh - looks like standard ivory tower BS...

No subjective equality? Sounds a bit like social Darwinism to me.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Capitalism is rightly credited with having unleashed enormous forces of productivity and technology. But it has also reduced much of the world to ruin and squalor.

One doesn't need to read any further than this to see how off base the author is. There was no "reduce" as there was no "have" to reduce from. Sure, one of Capitalism's supposed "failures" is that some people get left behind in the system.... but then again, the system is about tangible and objective results - not subjective equality... (so then it's not really a failure in a true sense)

Meh - looks like standard ivory tower BS...

Well not really. When you compare those people supposed got "left behind", they are still better off than big percent of people in Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea where alternative system is used.

All these people using this crisis as an example of how capitalism has failed don't mention that those countries that use alternative system, everyday is a failure according to the same standard.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Capitalism is rightly credited with having unleashed enormous forces of productivity and technology. But it has also reduced much of the world to ruin and squalor.

One doesn't need to read any further than this to see how off base the author is. There was no "reduce" as there was no "have" to reduce from. Sure, one of Capitalism's supposed "failures" is that some people get left behind in the system.... but then again, the system is about tangible and objective results - not subjective equality... (so then it's not really a failure in a true sense)

Meh - looks like standard ivory tower BS...

Sounds like why i don't read Craig234's posts after he starts off with something silly.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Capitalism is rightly credited with having unleashed enormous forces of productivity and technology. But it has also reduced much of the world to ruin and squalor.

One doesn't need to read any further than this to see how off base the author is. There was no "reduce" as there was no "have" to reduce from. Sure, one of Capitalism's supposed "failures" is that some people get left behind in the system.... but then again, the system is about tangible and objective results - not subjective equality... (so then it's not really a failure in a true sense)

Meh - looks like standard ivory tower BS...

Well not really. When you compare those people supposed got "left behind", they are still better off than big percent of people in Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea where alternative system is used.

All these people using this crisis as an example of how capitalism has failed don't mention that those countries that use alternative system, everyday is a failure according to the same standard.

Exactly - and that's part of the reason I used "supposed". Like you state - even the "failed" (by capitalism) can be better off than those of other systems but I was trying to look at things broadly and in a "perfect world" type way like the poor misguided professor was.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,459
6,689
126
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Capitalism is rightly credited with having unleashed enormous forces of productivity and technology. But it has also reduced much of the world to ruin and squalor.

One doesn't need to read any further than this to see how off base the author is. There was no "reduce" as there was no "have" to reduce from. Sure, one of Capitalism's supposed "failures" is that some people get left behind in the system.... but then again, the system is about tangible and objective results - not subjective equality... (so then it's not really a failure in a true sense)

Meh - looks like standard ivory tower BS...

Sounds like why i don't read Craig234's posts after he starts off with something silly.

It must be working. You have certainly managed to keep yourself totally ignorant.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,459
6,689
126
When mites infect a cheese wheel they grow and prosper right up to the day so much of the cheese is eaten that it collapses.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Capitalism is rightly credited with having unleashed enormous forces of productivity and technology. But it has also reduced much of the world to ruin and squalor.

One doesn't need to read any further than this to see how off base the author is. There was no "reduce" as there was no "have" to reduce from. Sure, one of Capitalism's supposed "failures" is that some people get left behind in the system.... but then again, the system is about tangible and objective results - not subjective equality... (so then it's not really a failure in a true sense)

Meh - looks like standard ivory tower BS...

Well not really. When you compare those people supposed got "left behind", they are still better off than big percent of people in Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea where alternative system is used.

All these people using this crisis as an example of how capitalism has failed don't mention that those countries that use alternative system, everyday is a failure according to the same standard.

Very much agree.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Guy should at least take a glance at the 20th century history. And then the second quote in my sig.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Rainsford
The only "failure" of capitalism is that people became so enthralled with it that they convinced themselves it's a form of government, instead of simply a way to run the economy. It's a good system, but it's not a magical solution to everything. Our decades long conflict with communism convinced people that capitalism was in fact a perfect system for every situation, when I think most honest economists will admit that it's not.

Capitalism has an inherent flaw of its pressure to increase the concentration of wealth.

If you don't want to have nearly everyone be very, very poor, there has to be *some* counter to that pressure - progressive taxation, anti-trust laws, labor laws, etc.

When Columbus shows up and declares the island and all its gold to belong to Spain, and the people can mine or be killed, that's a form of 'capitalism'; all wealth in society, the land, the food, has no guaranteed 'distribution among the masses'; that has to be ensured through social policy.

The massive poverty and concentrated wealth during the early years of the Industrial Revolution, the Gilded Age, were an illustration of the results when unchecked.

When people didn't heed that and let it run amok again, the Great Depression was another illustration.

I didn't read the paper, but the excerpt mentioning the balance between the great benefits of capitalism with its systemic causing of poverty for many seems accurate.

Indeed, it's not even controversial, it seems to me, outside of people who are relatively ignorant of economics beyond talk radio ('us good them bad').
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Columbus shows up and declares property for the state of Spain equals capitalism?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Columbus shows up and declares property for the state of Spain equals capitalism?

No, the situation after that has an analogy - that's an example that illustrates the issue.

The actual claiming itself is not 'capitalism', but what happens after is a form of it.

Point being, that all the resources have somehow gottten into the people's hands that they're in, and that the distribution can be as aribtrary as the Columbus example, not necssariy having anything to do with 'justice' or any humane policy of how wealth 'should' be distributed. Capitalism could frankly not care less if people are starving to death, illnesses untreated, most people homeless - it has no relevance to those issues, it merely tends to be productive and concentrate wealth, unchecked.

Left alone, a capitalist society reverts to the norm of human history - concentrated power and a lot of humans serving the few.

It's not some utopia of everyone being well off and massive consumer choices.

Societal policies balance the effect of capitalism. The great productive power of capitalism has fueled those nations who have adopted it, and left others behind.

Catpialism has an important role in society, but unlike some here understand, it needs to have its limits.