my observations on HDTV's at best buy

Jul 10, 2007
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so my gf wants an hdtv so i took her to best buy to compare some models.

a typical girl, she knows nothing about lcd's other than how the tv itself looks (the bezel, not the picture), and she was attracted by the samsung touch of red panel (650 series) that she saw online.
i'm no videophile, but i know a little bit about what features are important to look for other than the plastic bezel. but at the same i'm so out of the loop myself on all the latest models so i thought this would be a nice comparison.

my random observations-

1. sony's had the darkest blacks among all LCD tv's consistently throughout their entire line of lcd's, from their highest model all the way down to their lowest.
she agreed after a side by side comparison to a 650 series samsung.

2. lots of recommendations for samsung lcd's on the web so i was expecting a lot from their displays. imo it was half warranted.
the good: vibrant colors, 120hz well implemented
the bad: black levels disappointing compared to sony's - looking at the top/bottom black bars, there was noticeable purplish/grayish hue.
i thought sony/samsung was sharing panels, or was it sharp?
interestingly enough, the 5 series was better than the 6 series in this regard.

3. pioneer kuro elite, there's a reason they cost so much. enough said.

4. panasonic plasmas are a very good substitute for kuros at a significant discount.
my they've gotten cheap since i bought my 42" px60 series 2 years ago.

5. jaw dropper of the day- sharp special edition 65" monster was absolutely gorgeous, but at the price of $5999 it better be.
i read a lot about sharp's banding, but this unit did not suffer from that defect.
there was a commercial looping with plenty of blacks and whites- the blacks were pitch black and the image was crystal clear. of course being in the special magnolia section, meaning darkest rooms, and probably being calibrated properly had something to do with it.
i think just the sheer size of the display and how crisp the image was just made it more stunning.

after seeing them in action in person, she is leaning towards a sony 40" W series.
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
so my gf wants an hdtv so i took her to best buy to compare some models.

a typical girl, she knows nothing about lcd's other than how the tv itself looks (the bezel, not the picture), and she was attracted by the samsung touch of red panel (650 series) that she saw online.
i'm no videophile, but i know a little bit about what features are important to look for other than the plastic bezel. but at the same i'm so out of the loop myself on all the latest models so i thought this would be a nice comparison.

my random observations-

1. sony's had the darkest blacks among all LCD tv's consistently throughout their entire line of lcd's, from their highest model all the way down to their lowest.
she agreed after a side by side comparison to a 650 series samsung.

2. lots of recommendations for samsung lcd's on the web so i was expecting a lot from their displays. imo it was half warranted.
the good: vibrant colors, 120hz well implemented
the bad: black levels disappointing compared to sony's - looking at the top/bottom black bars, there was noticeable purplish/grayish hue.
i thought sony/samsung was sharing panels, or was it sharp?
interestingly enough, the 5 series was better than the 6 series in this regard.

3. pioneer kuro elite, there's a reason they cost so much. enough said.

4. panasonic plasmas are a very good substitute for kuros at a significant discount.
my they've gotten cheap since i bought my 42" px60 series 2 years ago.

5. jaw dropper of the day- sharp special edition 65" monster was absolutely gorgeous, but at the price of $5999 it better be.
i read a lot about sharp's banding, but this unit did not suffer from that defect.
there was a commercial looping with plenty of blacks and whites- the blacks were pitch black and the image was crystal clear. of course being in the special magnolia section, meaning darkest rooms, and probably being calibrated properly had something to do with it.
i think just the sheer size of the display and how crisp the image was just made it more stunning.


after seeing them in action in person, she is leaning towards a sony 40" W series.
The special edition is $6000. The LIMITED edition is the XS1, and the 65" version is ~$16,000. :Q That's the bad mambo jambo from Sharp.

But the Sony W series LCDs are nice. You can also check out the Z series.

 
Dec 26, 2007
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You can't go off that in-store comparison. You would need to actually make sure all the TV's settings are set the same. Just because the blacks on the Sony's were best in LCD's (which I would agree Sony or Samsung are the best LCD's), doesn't mean they are the better LCD.

Granted you were just doing in-store looking stuff, but did you check brightness and other settings?
 
Dec 26, 2007
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Also if you have non-best buy stores in the area go there.

Local one by me that I like

Best Buy and almost all big chains have horrible viewing conditions, and can't make good judgements in store.

What you need to do is side by side comparison between them configured the same. Also what you see in store could be different then what you see at home. Overhead CCFL's/store lighting is NOT good for viewing of HDTV's.

I know you mentioned the Kuro Elites, but have you checked out the Kuro 5020? It would be around $2600 retail, but can be found for $2200 or less on sale without much effort.

IMO rankings go:
Pioneer Kuro
Panasonic plasmas
Samsung (not ToC lines, because their bezel is massively huge and makes the tv look smaller)
Sony (they are overpriced IMO. You can get the same picture or better from Samsung for cheaper)

edit: What's her budget? What's she use it for (tv mainly, movies mainly, gaming mainly)? What are the room lighting conditions (lots of windows or bright lights are not good for glass panel's like plasmas unless you block out light or deal with reflections)?
 

kalrith

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2005
6,628
7
81
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
You can't go off that in-store comparison. You would need to actually make sure all the TV's settings are set the same. Just because the blacks on the Sony's were best in LCD's (which I would agree Sony or Samsung are the best LCD's), doesn't mean they are the better LCD.

Granted you were just doing in-store looking stuff, but did you check brightness and other settings?

I agree completely. I'll add two more things to be conscious of. The best-looking TV in the store, even if all TVs are professionally calibrated (which they won't be), will most likely not be the best-looking TV in your home. The reason is the lighting and the fact that they are next to other TVs. It's so bright at BB that it's not a good representation of how it will look at home, and most often the brightest TVs look best in those situations. The one exception would be if your BB has the Magnolia room.

Then again, you can't buy several TVs and bring them home to see which one looks best. Therefore, just keep these things in mind and possibly print out some settings from avsforum or a review site for the different TVs and try to get the remotes to change the settings. If you don't want to print out some settings, then just changing them from "torch" mode (blazingly bright) to movie mode should make a huge difference.
 
Jul 10, 2007
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i understand the tv and room settings make all the difference in the world... but would that contribute to purplish/grayish black levels?
a brighter black should still look black IMO, and the couple of samsungs on display didn't appear black.
the 850 was nice however; just noticed they have a ton of samsungs on display.
 

krotchy

Golden Member
Mar 29, 2006
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I will tell you there is a reason Sony's looked the best at Best Buy (or Circuit City). Best profit margin = best calibration. The Samsungs and Sony's use the exact same panels and both have good processing. While I will give Sony the slightest PQ/Black level nod, I assure you it is nowhere near what it looks like in Best Buy. If you spend 20 minutes messing with the settings on one.

Also the Sharp 65" is a good bang/buck for a TV of that size if you must have thin, but I rarely/never hear anyone recommend the same TV in 52" over a Samsung or Sony.
 
Jul 10, 2007
12,041
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Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Also if you have non-best buy stores in the area go there.

Local one by me that I like

Best Buy and almost all big chains have horrible viewing conditions, and can't make good judgements in store.

What you need to do is side by side comparison between them configured the same. Also what you see in store could be different then what you see at home. Overhead CCFL's/store lighting is NOT good for viewing of HDTV's.

I know you mentioned the Kuro Elites, but have you checked out the Kuro 5020? It would be around $2600 retail, but can be found for $2200 or less on sale without much effort.

IMO rankings go:
Pioneer Kuro
Panasonic plasmas
Samsung (not ToC lines, because their bezel is massively huge and makes the tv look smaller)
Sony (they are overpriced IMO. You can get the same picture or better from Samsung for cheaper)

edit: What's her budget? What's she use it for (tv mainly, movies mainly, gaming mainly)? What are the room lighting conditions (lots of windows or bright lights are not good for glass panel's like plasmas unless you block out light or deal with reflections)?

$1500ish?
knowing her, just tv (hd cable).
no issues with lightning, room with few windows.
 

kalrith

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2005
6,628
7
81
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Also if you have non-best buy stores in the area go there.

Local one by me that I like

Best Buy and almost all big chains have horrible viewing conditions, and can't make good judgements in store.

What you need to do is side by side comparison between them configured the same. Also what you see in store could be different then what you see at home. Overhead CCFL's/store lighting is NOT good for viewing of HDTV's.

I know you mentioned the Kuro Elites, but have you checked out the Kuro 5020? It would be around $2600 retail, but can be found for $2200 or less on sale without much effort.

IMO rankings go:
Pioneer Kuro
Panasonic plasmas
Samsung (not ToC lines, because their bezel is massively huge and makes the tv look smaller)
Sony (they are overpriced IMO. You can get the same picture or better from Samsung for cheaper)

edit: What's her budget? What's she use it for (tv mainly, movies mainly, gaming mainly)? What are the room lighting conditions (lots of windows or bright lights are not good for glass panel's like plasmas unless you block out light or deal with reflections)?

$1500ish?
knowing her, just tv (hd cable).
no issues with lightning, room with few windows.

At $1500ish I'd agree with DisgruntledVirus and be looking at the Panasonic plasmas like this one. If you can swing your budget upwards to the 5020, then definitely get that. I've had a 5080 (previous generation and 768p) for a year, and it looks incredible. I got lucky and found it for $1900 because of a BB pricing mistake.

One last question: what's your viewing distance?
 
Dec 26, 2007
11,782
2
76
Originally posted by: kalrith
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Also if you have non-best buy stores in the area go there.

Local one by me that I like

Best Buy and almost all big chains have horrible viewing conditions, and can't make good judgements in store.

What you need to do is side by side comparison between them configured the same. Also what you see in store could be different then what you see at home. Overhead CCFL's/store lighting is NOT good for viewing of HDTV's.

I know you mentioned the Kuro Elites, but have you checked out the Kuro 5020? It would be around $2600 retail, but can be found for $2200 or less on sale without much effort.

IMO rankings go:
Pioneer Kuro
Panasonic plasmas
Samsung (not ToC lines, because their bezel is massively huge and makes the tv look smaller)
Sony (they are overpriced IMO. You can get the same picture or better from Samsung for cheaper)

edit: What's her budget? What's she use it for (tv mainly, movies mainly, gaming mainly)? What are the room lighting conditions (lots of windows or bright lights are not good for glass panel's like plasmas unless you block out light or deal with reflections)?

$1500ish?
knowing her, just tv (hd cable).
no issues with lightning, room with few windows.

At $1500ish I'd agree with DisgruntledVirus and be looking at the Panasonic plasmas like this one. If you can swing your budget upwards to the 5020, then definitely get that. I've had a 5080 (previous generation and 768p) for a year, and it looks incredible. I got lucky and found it for $1900 because of a BB pricing mistake.

One last question: what's your viewing distance?

I have the 5080 because I got it on a day that they had like no sales (we had the worst storm of the season that day). They sold it to me for $1999+$100 for the 4 yr replacement :).

The 5020 is the 1080p version of the 5080 with blacker blacks. Other then that it's the same panel.

For $1500ish (although at that point I would seriously look into the Kuro, but that's just me and IMO) I would agree with that Panasonic. IMO Plasma>LCD (and a lot of others), but this depends greatly on the enviornment.

So to sum up can you answer these questions for us:
Viewing distance
The room characteristics (namely lighting and windows), and how bright it is (glass will reflect like mad). Is she willing to use curtains/blinds, or will she want windows opened?
Any other constraints

I would go with the Kuro 5020 at $2200-2400, Panny linked to above, then Sammy 46a750 for $1700(or the 650 series at $1500), and finally the Sony's. The problem with Sony is the name. You *usually* have to step down to the next smallest size to get the same price (46 inch Sammy or a 42 inch Sony).

Those are all IMO, and your gf should base her choice off what looks best to HER EYES. You should help, but forget what you read online and go with what looks best to her (and you). You should stop by a store that's a local HT store (or Magnolia). A store that sells high end equip will have setups that are much better for viewing, with softer lights (that can be turned off if you want to) and sales staff that will help you find what's best for you and not their paychecks commission.
 
Dec 26, 2007
11,782
2
76
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
i understand the tv and room settings make all the difference in the world... but would that contribute to purplish/grayish black levels?
a brighter black should still look black IMO, and the couple of samsungs on display didn't appear black.
the 850 was nice however; just noticed they have a ton of samsungs on display.

Kind of.

It would cause "grayish"/"washed out" blacks because to give you that really "bright" display that stands out, you have to jack up the brightness to compensate for the store lighting. Because of the nature of blacks and how the techs work (especially true for LCD, but plasma suffers from it as well but not as bad due to no backlighting) jacking up the brightness means more backlight. The way around this is "Local dimming" on LED based LCD's, which will actually dim the LED itself (sometimes turning it off in a grid) to give darker blacks.

My guess without looking at the display itself would be the Sammy's were set in "torch mode", because Samsung generally has some of the best LCD's with blackest black levels (their 7x series last year was amazing).

So to answer your question, no store lighting in and of itself does not wash out blacks. The effect of store lighting makes stores with "walls of tv's" jack up the brightness to really high levels. The secondary reason for it, is the sheeple will be drawn to the "brightest" tv thinking it looks the best in store so it must be the best at home.
 

The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
3
76
I had a Samsung 4096D then a Samsung 4665F then I replaced it with a Sony 52XBR4, which was a good move. Moving from the 52XBR4 to a Pioneer Elite PRO-151FD there is absolutely no comparision.

The Pioneer is by far the best TV you can buy right now, watching many of the blu-rays I have with dark scenes I did not realize how much I was missing with an LCD TV for the last 3 years.