My next vehicle purchase - fun vs responsibility vs stupid

[agent00f]

The fuel economy and maintenance cost "savings" of a Volvo over a Lexus is nearly non existent. The fuel economy of a 2011 IS350 and an S80 are identical yet the S80 has a worse resale value and higher repair costs. Maintenance costs can't be less on the S80 because repair costs are higher. Typically a vehicle with low maintenance costs also has low repair costs. Some maintenance costs are fixed so two different vehicles would have similar maintenance costs. As for a 2016 S80 vs an IS200T, the fuel economy "improvement" is only 3mpg while again, the maintenance costs should be similar while the depreciation and repair costs should be higher for the Volvo.

It probably depends on the model of Volvo, whereas lexus is reliably reliable. I know the previous s40's & such were based on mazdas, which shouldn't be too bad for major problems.

 

[tortillasoup]

Thank you for your constructive input...



More assumptions and assertions without any backup.

The cars that I cited were 2016 MY from Edmunds, not 2011, as I've noted before. 2011 MY cars are clearly a different situation. For 2016 MY cars the S80 gets 29MPG combined and the IS350 (RWD) gets 22MPG or (AWD) 21MPG combined. See: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2016_Volvo_S80.shtml and https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Lexus2016.shtml

I don't know why you keep trying to correlate the S80, a full-size sedan, to an IS200T, a mid-size sedan. Stop making faulty comparisons.

That is an excellent question! A question only YOU can answer since after all, this whole comparison thing started off with you comparing an IS350 with a Volvo S80, cars from two different segments. It's funny that you exclude the IS200T but not the IS350 as the IS200T would sort of be an acceptable comparison to an S80. IS200T is more fair only because it's a turbo 2L vs the IS350 being a 3.5L V6 but otherwise, the vehicles aren't comparable as you've pointed out. IS200T/IS350 are actually compact sedans vs the S80 which is a midsize car.

The correct comparison is an ES350 vs a Volvo S80. Even if you upgraded to the Hybrid ES300h, it's still several thousand dollars less in the MSRP. The starting MSRP on the Volvo S80 is $43K while the starting MSRP on the ES350 is $37K and $41K for the ES300h.

As for the relationship between maintenance and repair costs... wouldn't it make more sense that a car with a rigorous maintenance schedule would have low repair costs? With more failure points being inspected and/or adjusted regularly one would logically conclude that fewer failures would occur.

No. Cars that are high maintenance are cars that aren't built very well and consequently are expensive to own. Older cars are more expensive to own than newer cars. Older cars are significantly higher maintenance than newer cars. A Prius is the lowest maintenance/least expensive car to own in its segment because it has no belts, no transmission fluid replacements (that it really needs in 10 years), no clutches, regenerative braking, easy on oil, inexpensive tires, and high reliability. Prius doesn't have a lot of parts that are known to fail. I mean, is it a repair or maintenance if you know you're going to have to replace a part on a regular basis? It's like the BMW throttle body problem that trident pointed out. Is that a repair or maintenance? Either way, very expensive and stupid.

 

[agent00f]

I was curious and just check for the s80 and it's a ford eucd platform. They use their own engines, with the SI6 which was supposed to be a global engine when they were still owned by ford (thus I imagine engineered to those standards), and in the s80 they also have yamaha v8 option which should be okay.

 

[z1ggy]

Since this topic is getting fairly out of hand, I figure I'd hijack and post a "what if" for AT garage to ponder with me:

I'm a mega Type A personality and need to plan and theorize my life pretty maximally. I foresee my next vehicle not being the tiny hatch/sedan of my yesteryear, but rather a mid/large family sedan, as I'm sure I will be married in a few years, and have some little wildlings within the next 4 to 5. Been looking at the Chevy SS and Dodge SRT8 pretty heavily as favorite in the sport-sedan segment. BWM/Audi are too expensive to get what these both offer: Ponies.

Have either of my fellow garage members partaken in any test drives of these 2 beauties, or maybe in fact own one??

 

[JulesMaximus]

Since this topic is getting fairly out of hand, I figure I'd hijack and post a "what if" for AT garage to ponder with me:

I'm a mega Type A personality and need to plan and theorize my life pretty maximally. I foresee my next vehicle not being the tiny hatch/sedan of my yesteryear, but rather a mid/large family sedan, as I'm sure I will be married in a few years, and have some little wildlings within the next 4 to 5. Been looking at the Chevy SS and Dodge SRT8 pretty heavily as favorite in the sport-sedan segment. BWM/Audi are too expensive to get what these both offer: Ponies.

Have either of my fellow garage members partaken in any test drives of these 2 beauties, or maybe in fact own one??

I wouldn't touch a Dodge in a million years. They are garbage and will be falling apart after a few years of ownership. And unless you like acres of cheap hard plastic and rental car styling I'd avoid them like the plague.

I'd look at a used CTS-V if you want power. There is always the CPO route with zee German makes too. They make some pretty powerful V8 powered cars and if you can swing a 2 year old off lease model they've already taken that huge depreciation hit.

 

[agent00f]

The wisdom of planning a car purchase for possibilities years down the road aside, and the need for that much power aside, if the chevy ss drives like its g8 predecessor it's imo a better driving car than the chrysler, which is boaty.

 

[agent00f]

I wouldn't touch a Dodge in a million years. They are garbage and will be falling apart after a few years of ownership. And unless you like acres of cheap hard plastic and rental car styling I'd avoid them like the plague.

I'd look at a used CTS-V if you want power. There is always the CPO route with zee German makes too. They make some pretty powerful V8 powered cars and if you can swing a 2 year old off lease model they've already taken that huge depreciation hit.

The srt's are nicer than the rentals, as they should be. They still appeal to a certain demo though that values macho masculinity highly.

 

[z1ggy]

I wouldn't touch a Dodge in a million years. They are garbage and will be falling apart after a few years of ownership. And unless you like acres of cheap hard plastic and rental car styling I'd avoid them like the plague.

I'd look at a used CTS-V if you want power. There is always the CPO route with zee German makes too. They make some pretty powerful V8 powered cars and if you can swing a 2 year old off lease model they've already taken that huge depreciation hit.

I'd certainly consider used. Just not sure I'd touch zee German cars ever, because once that CPO warranty runs out, I feel like I'd be dishing out the $$ left and right for fixes. MY friends 3 series had 3 coil failures in the 2 years he's had it.

The wisdom of planning a car purchase for possibilities years down the road aside, and the need for that much power aside, if the chevy ss drives like its g8 predecessor it's imo a better driving car than the chrysler, which is boaty.

Well, I'm pretty much set in life right now. Yeah things change, but I'm planning on marrying my current g/f, we've been dating for 3.5 years. My little mazda 3 is barely big enough to lug around my hockey bag, let alone a kid or two and all the various shit that goes along with it. I keep cars for long enough that I think about the 5-10 years of ownership.

The srt's are nicer than the rentals, as they should be. They still appeal to a certain demo though that values macho masculinity highly.

I've always wanted a V8 engine. This was confirmed when I drove my buddies 2016 mustang GT and nearly pooed my pants driving it as fast as I could. Nothing will ever replicate that sound or feeling of it. Sorry turbo 6's...

 

[JCH13]

That is an excellent question! A question only YOU can answer since after all, this whole comparison thing started off with you comparing an IS350 with a Volvo S80, cars from two different segments. It's funny that you exclude the IS200T but not the IS350 as the IS200T would sort of be an acceptable comparison to an S80. IS200T is more fair only because it's a turbo 2L vs the IS350 being a 3.5L V6 but otherwise, the vehicles aren't comparable as you've pointed out. IS200T/IS350 are actually compact sedans vs the S80 which is a midsize car.

The correct comparison is an ES350 vs a Volvo S80. Even if you upgraded to the Hybrid ES300h, it's still several thousand dollars less in the MSRP. The starting MSRP on the Volvo S80 is $43K while the starting MSRP on the ES350 is $37K and $41K for the ES300h.


No. Cars that are high maintenance are cars that aren't built very well and consequently are expensive to own. Older cars are more expensive to own than newer cars. Older cars are significantly higher maintenance than newer cars. A Prius is the lowest maintenance/least expensive car to own in its segment because it has no belts, no transmission fluid replacements (that it really needs in 10 years), no clutches, regenerative braking, easy on oil, inexpensive tires, and high reliability. Prius doesn't have a lot of parts that are known to fail. I mean, is it a repair or maintenance if you know you're going to have to replace a part on a regular basis? It's like the BMW throttle body problem that trident pointed out. Is that a repair or maintenance? Either way, very expensive and stupid.

I ignored engine size because that's largely irrelevant, I tried to pick luxury cars of a similar size. Should we be including all 2.0L turbo engine cars? Absolutely not. However, the ES3560 vs S80 may be a better comparison, which puts the Lexus at around $5k/cheaper over the first 5 years to own. When we look at the 5-year TCO spectrum that puts us at (I re-did some of these to more appropriately match for size):

Lexus ES350 - $39k, 100% vs best
Acura TLX - $42k, 108%
Volvo S80 - $44k, 113%
Audi A6 - $52-67k, 133-172%
Mercedes E350 - $62-65k, 160-167%
BMW 5s-Series - $56-79k, 144-202%

I believe this still proves my original point that Acura and Volvo are some of the cheapest luxury cars to own. Is Lexus potentially the cheapest? Absolutely. Is it head and shoulders better? Not in the context of luxury cars.

As to your second paragraph... I think you just disagree with the definitions of maintenance and repairs, and are (again) mixing up maintenance and repair costs with TCO. Used vehicle TCO is a tricky game, and can vary a lot from car to car. There's not a lot of solid data out there, but I would posit that depreciation, which dominates early-year TCO, drops off very rapidly because the vehicle value bottoms out, and that repair/maintenance costs would not rise enough to make the vehicle more expensive to own. It may feel worse because money is going into repairs, but at the end of the day one's checkbook doesn't notice the difference.

No idea why you're mentioning a Prius...

 

[tortillasoup]

The Mercedes E350 and BMW 5 series are more comparable to a Lexus LS rather than an ES as the former are RWD vehicles while the ES is a FWD vehicle and basically a glorified Camry.

You're correct that Volvo and Acura are among the top 3 cheapest Luxury brands but the gulf in price between a Volvo S80 and an ES350 is quite large.

I brought up the Prius because we were talking about maintenance costs and that the Prius was the lowest maintenance cost vehicle on the road aside from other Toyota based hybrids.


If you wanted to compare a comparable car to the Lexus IS200T, a Volvo S60 would be more appropriate as they're similarly sized. With an MSRP of $37k for the 26MPG IS200Td vs $34K for the 30MPG Volvo S60, the Volvo may be cheaper for the first 5 years of ownership. However, based upon my experience with Volvo, the repair costs may escalate a lot faster than you'd expect. For my '04 S60, by the time '08 rolled by, I was started to see how poorly the car was aging with real problems starting to appear after that.

IS350 is more comparable with the Volvo S60 T6 which is super turbo charged but starts at $47K vs $42K for the IS350.

IS200T is more expensive likely because it's RWD while the Volvo is FWD. Otherwise, their performance characteristics are nearly identical.

 

[agent00f]

The s60's are also essentially fancy Fords. Ford's no Lexus, but it's not bmw either.

 

[agent00f]

I've always wanted a V8 engine. This was confirmed when I drove my buddies 2016 mustang GT and nearly pooed my pants driving it as fast as I could. Nothing will ever replicate that sound or feeling of it. Sorry turbo 6's...

You can drive that mazda 3 pretty fast too if you learn how to drive.

 

[z1ggy]

You can drive that mazda 3 pretty fast too if you learn how to drive.

k that's cool, but it's not big enough for the needs that I see my life demanding in 4-5 years from now.

 

[agent00f]

My point being it's not really a v8 that makes a car scary fast unless you're just frightened by a certain kind of noise. This isn't a remark about you particularly, just a reminder that everyday cars are already very fast in an absolute sense, even if not relatively speaking compare to other even ridiculously faster cars.

 

[z1ggy]

Yes I know it's not the engine itself. My 600cc sport bike only had 100hp and was the fastest thing I've yet to ride.

The main reason I'd like something with a bit more balls to it is for highway passing. Here in NJ, highway rush hour traffic is kill or be killed. You have to pass and drive super aggressive, or you get stuck behind 18 wheels and other grandma like cars in the right hand lane. The mazda3 is okay, I make it, but life would be a lot easier with moar ponies. That and as I said, more room.

 

[jlee]

Yes I know it's not the engine itself. My 600cc sport bike only had 100hp and was the fastest thing I've yet to ride.

The main reason I'd like something with a bit more balls to it is for highway passing. Here in NJ, highway rush hour traffic is kill or be killed. You have to pass and drive super aggressive, or you get stuck behind 18 wheels and other grandma like cars in the right hand lane. The mazda3 is okay, I make it, but life would be a lot easier with moar ponies. That and as I said, more room.

A Mazdaspeed3 would fix your power problem.

 

[agent00f]

An even better value is the best mazdaspeed 6 you can find. I swear these things cost like half a used STI.

Anyway, the Chevy SS is going to be the better chassis than the chrysler.

 

[z1ggy]

A Mazdaspeed3 would fix your power problem.

I've been waiting for mazda to come out with a new model now for years. You'd think with the ST and now the RS out, they'd be at least releasing renderings or something. Mazdaspeed3 was my favorite hatch to drive yet.

An even better value is the best mazdaspeed 6 you can find. I swear these things cost like half a used STI.

Anyway, the Chevy SS is going to be the better chassis than the chrysler.

Again, if mazda showed any interest in making performance vehicles again, I'd be all over it.

Used ATS-V might make the short list too if I find decent enough ones are in my price range at that point. I also don't like the overuse of chrome on the SS. Not my style really. I wish they'd made it a bit more brute like the G8.

 

[A5]

k that's cool, but it's not big enough for the needs that I see my life demanding in 4-5 years from now.

My wife has fit our daughter+stuff in her 3 (and my 6) without any real issues for the last 14 months, and any issues will disappear completely once she is out of her rear-facing car seat in the next year-ish.

The only time it was really an issue was for a long holiday road trip where I also wanted to bring my telescope (6" diameter and a big stand) along...so we just rented a crossover.

2nd kid at some point may require a new vehicle purchase to replace my 6, just to get another hatchback/wagon/xover in the fleet. Full-size cars will have more trunk than my 6, but shape has been more of an issue than bulk so far, so I'd rather have a hatch with less floor area than a bigger trunk.

Used ATS-V

Would have less storage space than your 3, I believe

 

[z1ggy]

My wife has fit our daughter+stuff in her 3 (and my 6) without any real issues for the last 14 months, and any issues will disappear completely once she is out of her rear-facing car seat in the next year-ish.

The only time it was really an issue was for a long holiday road trip where I also wanted to bring my telescope (6" diameter and a big stand) along...so we just rented a crossover.

2nd kid at some point may require a new vehicle purchase to replace my 6, just to get another hatchback/wagon/xover in the fleet. Full-size cars will have more trunk than my 6, but shape has been more of an issue than bulk so far, so I'd rather have a hatch with less floor area than a bigger trunk.


Would have less storage space than your 3, I believe

Yeah 1 young child is fine, even 2 young children can fit in a smaller sedan/hatch. I'm thinking more along the lines when they are a bit older. But yeah this is all a "what if" and there's still plenty of time to plan and think.

And about the ATS... Really? Meh I guess I could see that as far as storage space, but there's got to be more rear leg room, right? I don't know, I don't have time to go check right now.

 

[A5]

Not sure which year 3 you have, but comparing 2016s the ATS is 1-2 inches smaller in every rear seat dimension. It's definitely a compact sedan in the European style.

And I think older kids are easier to carry than infants.

For example, to go on an overnight trip with my 14 month-old, we have to pack all of this:
Giant rear-facing car seat
Pack-and-play or portable crib (think a small suitcase)
Bag with toys, etc
Suitcase (or at least some room in ours)
Big stroller

Older kids just need clothes and entertainment, and can fit either in a front-facing seat or in the normal seat as-is.

 

[z1ggy]

2011 model year.

Yeah so sounds like ATS might be out. I guess Im just trying to research the largest sport sedans that's affordable, but not also a giant 4,500lb beast. I hate being high off the ground, so any type of SUV/CUV is out. Hatches just seem too small for all those things you described because you can't flip seats down any more.

 

[A5]

Well, for the first kid you still have a 60/40 split you can use no problem, or you stack stuff in the footwells of the rear passenger cabin (this is what we do when we take my 6 on a trip). By the time the second kid rolls around, the first one should need less stuff, and if you're buying on a 4-5 year time horizon you'll be on your next next car by then anyway.

This is the part where I mention that I wish there were still good station wagons these days. The Golf Sportwagen is a bit too small (only the cargo area of a Ford Escape), and Volvo/MB/BMW wagons are way too expensive.

 

[z1ggy]

Well, for the first kid you still have a 60/40 split you can use no problem, or you stack stuff in the footwells of the rear passenger cabin (this is what we do when we take my 6 on a trip). By the time the second kid rolls around, the first one should need less stuff, and if you're buying on a 4-5 year time horizon you'll be on your next next car by then anyway.

This is the part where I mention that I wish there were still good station wagons these days. The Golf Sportwagen is a bit too small (only the cargo area of a Ford Escape), and Volvo/MB/BMW wagons are way too expensive.

True. Come to think of it, the ol ball and chain is buying a Forester sometime soon, so that'll still be kicking by that time. Her current car is an 07 Fusion with 180k on it.

Any excuse I have to keep a small sporty hatch/sedan is ok with me!!!! But... I'm sure she won't approve of my test drives of Impreza's, S3's and RS's :-/

 

[JulesMaximus]

True. Come to think of it, the ol ball and chain is buying a Forester sometime soon, so that'll still be kicking by that time. Her current car is an 07 Fusion with 180k on it.

Any excuse I have to keep a small sporty hatch/sedan is ok with me!!!! But... I'm sure she won't approve of my test drives of Impreza's, S3's and RS's :-/

Bah, get her a minivan and buy yourself a Corvette.