My mom spends $40/mo on that shady "Protandim" vitamin stuff

[FrankR]

Yes those studies either wholly supported by LifeVantage or conducted by persons working for LifeVantage are certainly convincing.

I guess you just showed me what's what.

I think 2 of the 7 or 8 where LifeVantage funded, the rest were not. They were all peer reviewed however, and published.

You think the American Heart Association, Harvard or the National Institute of Health would invest and study something that was a fraud?

 

[nick1985]

FrankR.

Shit-for-brains.

lol.

 

[FrankR]

How much are you making on this crap? I'm curious.

Nothing, its consuming my time just debating the subject, not really worth it.

 

[zinfamous]

I think 2 of the 7 or 8 where LifeVantage funded, the rest were not. They were all peer reviewed however, and published.

You think the American Heart Association, Harvard or the National Institute of Health would invest and study something that was a fraud?

of course. that is why you investigate frauds.

 

[Kirby]

Nothing, its consuming my time just debating the subject, not really worth it.

If it's not worth it even to you, why the fuck are you here?

 

[Hoober]

How much are you making on this crap? I'm curious.

There are a number of supplements and herbal remedies that Western medicine shuns because of our pharmaceutical companies. Just because the FDA hasn't done clinical studies doesn't make it crap.

Frank posted reasonable 3rd party links (.gov) with archives of articles done by 3rd party researchers. He doesn't deserve to be bashed, and he certainly doesn't deserve to be banned. I've been in this community a long time and everyone's reactions to this guy are way off base.

 

[Fausto]

I think 2 of the 7 or 8 where LifeVantage funded, the rest were not. They were all peer reviewed however, and published.

You think the American Heart Association, Harvard or the National Institute of Health would invest and study something that was a fraud?

You have all this stuff on a clipboard ready to copy/paste, don't you?

I can play that game too!

http://www.protandimscams.com/prota...and-national-institute-of-health-nih-funding/

 

[Fausto]

There were two grants were listed for Keith Gooch (AHA 0555538U and AHA 0655323B). Both of these grants were received by Gooch to fund research unrelated to Protandim. He merely chose of his own accord to divert those funds for the Protandim study. The evidence is in this 2010 paper, “Arterial pO2 stimulates intimal hyperplasia and serum stimulates inward eutrophic remodeling in porcine saphenous veins cultured ex vivo.” Gooch listed the identical grant numbers for research that was completely unrelated to Protandim.

 

[Fausto]

There were three grants were listed for Jay Zwier (HL63744, HL65608 and HL38324). All 3 of these are old grants that Zwier received to fund research unrelated to Protandim. Like Keith Gooch, he merely chose of his own accord to divert those funds for the Protandim study. The evidence can be found in this 2009 JBC paper in which Zwier listed the identical grant numbers for research that was completely unrelated to Protandim.

 

[Fausto]

And we all know "peer reviewed" doesn't necessarily mean shit. Data can be massaged and manipulated. Doubly so if the "researcher" has a direct financial stake in the outcome of the study.

See also: Vaccines and Autism.

 

[FrankR]

There are a number of supplements and herbal remedies that Western medicine shuns because of our pharmaceutical companies. Just because the FDA hasn't done clinical studies doesn't make it crap.

Frank posted reasonable 3rd party links (.gov) with archives of articles done by 3rd party researchers. He doesn't deserve to be bashed, and he certainly doesn't deserve to be banned. I've been in this community a long time and everyone's reactions to this guy are way off base.

Thank you for the kind response. Its good to know this community has people who are open to a 3rd party opinion. I don't mind disagreement, there are discussion points valid on both sides of the Protandim debate, which I generally enjoy participating in, but when people start saying I'm a shit head, and fuck off, its a little discouraging, that level of discussion is not constructive.

 

[FrankR]

Who is Keith Gooch, does he work for the company?

 

[FrankR]

And we all know "peer reviewed" doesn't necessarily mean shit. Data can be massaged and manipulated. Doubly so if the "researcher" has a direct financial stake in the outcome of the study.

See also: Vaccines and Autism.

Actually because one of the study authors was a director at the company, the peer review process looks harder at the relationship, to make sure its legit.

 

[Fausto]

Who is Keith Gooch, does he work for the company?

You tell me. He saw fit to divert funds he received for other proposals to study your snake oil.

NIH, AHA, all that.

 

[FrankR]

You tell me. He saw fit to divert funds he received for other proposals to study your snake oil.

NIH, AHA, all that.

I had to search it:
http://bme.osu.edu/people/gooch20
http://pro.osu.edu/profiles/gooch.20/

Since the company is publicly traded, its public info who's in the loop financially, http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=LFVN.OB

I don't see his name listed there.

 

[zinfamous]

yup. Federal grants awarded to researchers can be used for all types of purposes related to a particular project if that investigator sees it to be related.

The grant proposals for that funding would be quite telling. It's certainly possible that the investigations weren't about the snake oil specifically, but that the compounds within were related to the investigator's work.

To argue that these studies were approved by NIH, AHA, and such simply by virtue that funding from specific grants was used for an investigator's side project is the typical type of duplicitous information dissemination that one expects from marketing shills whom, whether or not they understand how funding works, are certainly willing to exploit vague and unrelated connections to create relationships that simply do not exist.

fucking marketing scumbags. some of the worst assholes anywhere.

 

[Fausto]

I had to search it:
http://bme.osu.edu/people/gooch20
http://pro.osu.edu/profiles/gooch.20/

Since the company is publicly traded, its public info who's in the loop financially, http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=LFVN.OB

I don't see his name listed there.

I don't see your name listed there either. I suppose it's possible that the thousands of rubes involved with Protandium are not listed on Yahoo Finance?

 

[eits]

My brother-in-law somehow managed to convince himself to become a distributor of the stuff, and in turn, he convinced my mom to start paying $40 a month for it.

Like any other multi-level marketing scheme, it concerns me. It seems strange that there exists this magical "free radical" vitamin supplement that the medical community has somehow "overlooked". The only way to get it is to pay a ridiculous amount of money through multi-level distribution.

Upon further research, it's even more concerning that the pill has NEVER been evaluated by the FDA, and the combination of herbs used in the drug have absolutely no established/known benefit from antioxidant effects.

It's also concerning because my mom isn't exactly in a great financial situation, and I hate to see her throw money away monthly on something she really doesn't need. She claims that she feels better from the drug, however I want to tell her that instead she should eat more fruits and vegetables, and have a lower calorie intake. Then she would feel just as good, if not better.

What are your thoughts? What should I tell her?

Edit: Maybe I should have taken this to Health and Fitness. But maybe I could get some good advice here nonetheless.

she needs to stop wasting her money on that and start spending it on supplements that have been proven to be effective.

www.integratedsswjuiceplus.com

yes, it's a pyramid scheme kind of deal here too, but the product has a ton of research backing it up.

 

[Fausto]

So did you get around to telling us how much you're making? Somebody else worked it out to at least $1.50 per pill for MAYBE a quarter's worth of materials.

 

[Fausto]

Protandim... a Horrible Value

Since all the items that make up Protandim can be easily found online, I decided to look to see if it is a good value for the money. I found many places selling Protandim $45 for 30 pills online (or $55 at Amazon - Protandim, 30 caplets). That makes its cost about $1.50 (or more) a pill. As for the five ingredients in Protandim here's what they are, and their prices on Amazon:

•Milk Thistle - Available at Amazon.com for $23.10 for 400 pills - Milk Thistle Extract, Maximum Strength, 200-Count Bottles (Pack of 2). The cost is 5.8 CENTS per pill.
•Tumeric - Available at Amazon for $4.00 for 100 pills - Turmeric 720 mg 100 Caps - This works out to be 4 cents per pill. Of course you can just get this huge jar of the spice for $4 - Turmeric powder.
•Green Tea - Available at Amazon for $13.29 for 250 pills - NOW Foods Green Tea Extract, 250 Capsules / 400mg - That works out to be 5.3 cents a pill. Green Tea itself (in its natural liquid form) is very cheap too.
•Ashwagandha - Available at Amazon for $20.38 for 240 pills - Planetary Herbals Full Spectrum Ashwagandha (Winter Cherry) 570 mg Tablets' 120 tablets (Pack of 2) - That's the most expensive so far at 8 cents a pill.
•Bacopa - I'm with you Angela when you said, "I have no idea wtf bacopa is" - However, once again pick it up at Amazon for $13.76 for 125 pills - Planetary Formulas Bacopa Extract, 225 mg, Tablets, 240 tablets - Though Amazon says the price is 6 cents a tablet, my math says it comes out to a whooping 11 cents a tablet.
(Note: All price accurate as of January 25th, 2011. Of course they will vary slightly depending when you are reading this.)

Add up all five ingredients and it comes to 34 cents. It seems like a bargain compared to $1.50 a pill right? Well, it gets better. Protandim is 675mg of a secret blend of the ingredients. The quantities that I mentioned above were over 2000mg of a known blend. You get three times as much product for nearly 1/5th the price! You should be able to save money over the ingredients I found, I didn't spend time searching for the best price.

Hi, I'm "bottled water". I believe we've met.

 

[BeauJangles]

I did come here to debunk, what's wrong with that, you are here trying to debunk me.. what is your stake in that?

You got me. I actually work for one of the pharma companies that has spent years trying to keep Protandim off the market. We can't have such a vital and amazing supplement out there cannibalizating our sales of lead-filled sugar prescription medication. We make too much money! Several years ago we all got together and realized that this "internet" thing was going to present a real problem for us. After all, consumers like yourself could now try new supplements, do research, and share data without our involvement. Obviously, this wasn't acceptable. In order to counteract such grassroots movements, we split up the world's forums and each created "sleeper" accounts on them, posing as normal Joes until the time came to spring into action.

FrankR, I've been waiting a long, long time for you to come here and try and spread your propaganda. I'm here to undermine every study you post, seed doubt in the mind of your potential customers, and destroy your brand.


Or... you know, I'm just a normal guy who posts here and hates it when obvious scammers like yourself come along.

 

[olds]

Pics of mom?

 

[Fausto]

Pics of mom?

THIS.

 

[FrankR]

So did you get around to telling us how much you're making? Somebody else worked it out to at least $1.50 per pill for MAYBE a quarter's worth of materials.

Do you buy coffee? You spend $4 on a 12oz thing of coffee that costs Starbucks 50 cents.

Does that mean Starbucks is a bad value?

 

[Eli]

Do you buy coffee? You spend $4 on a 12oz thing of coffee that costs Starbucks 50 cents.

Does that mean Starbucks is a bad value?

Yes, yes it does.