My First Instance Experience and relying on team mates.

[torpid]

Originally posted by: Argo
Agro usually goes to whoever deals the most damage (or healing). Warriors have taunt to pull agro, pallys don't have anything AFAIK. That's why pallys who think they can be effective tanks in high level instances are sadly mistaken. I'm not sure how exactly agro works with healers, but with dps classes it's usually a good idea to let the tank build up agro for 10-15 seconds before you start attacking.

Pallies have a seal that increases their threat generation significantly. They also have a spell that damages anyone in a circle which helps with multiple enemies. Pallies can't be tanks in high level instances because they can't do enough damage. The pally damage slowly starts dwindling away from 40+ relative to other classes. You won't really notice a huge difference until high 50's, though. I actually prefer pally tanks for some instances, because most warriors do not have any concept of how to keep multiple enemies on them, whereas a pally can do this much more easily.

 

[Quixfire]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Argo
Agro usually goes to whoever deals the most damage (or healing). Warriors have taunt to pull agro, pallys don't have anything AFAIK. That's why pallys who think they can be effective tanks in high level instances are sadly mistaken. I'm not sure how exactly agro works with healers, but with dps classes it's usually a good idea to let the tank build up agro for 10-15 seconds before you start attacking.

Pallies have a seal that increases their threat generation significantly. They also have a spell that damages anyone in a circle which helps with multiple enemies. Pallies can't be tanks in high level instances because they can't do enough damage. The pally damage slowly starts dwindling away from 40+ relative to other classes. You won't really notice a huge difference until high 50's, though. I actually prefer pally tanks for some instances, because most warriors do not have any concept of how to keep multiple enemies on them, whereas a pally can do this much more easily.

As a warrior I agree with your statement about warriors not knowing how to keep aggro. I have seen more warriors try to maintain threat with a 2-handed weapon or dual wield than I care to mention. My personal build is for defense and rage generation so I can maintain threat and I also use items that help me attack multiple targets so they don't run off and start beating on the cloth wearers in my groups.

 

[Concillian]

Originally posted by: magomago
Furthermore, is there a spell for warriors or pallies or whoever called "pull aggro" or what? OR is it just their spells have higher rates of aggro ddealing? Because I was quseting with a 18 paladin earlier today and i swear enemies ALWAYS ran towards me instead of him...and he'd be smashing the enemies for like 8 seconds before being able to pull it off me~ but i've played with 16 and 17 paladins where I never think twice about the aggro. I ask this because i've only played as a preist: i haven't tried another class yet

Aggro is proportional to damage for most damage skills. There are some exceptions...

Pallies have a seal (that you will NEVER see used at your level) which creates additional hate/aggro per amount of damage dealt

Pallies healing spells create far LESS aggro than any other classes healing skills. This is to prevent the pally gaining too much group aggro by casting healing spells in the case that he's trying to tank. They create some hate, but not nearly as much as other healers.

Warriors have 'Taunt'. Taunt will create a large amount of hate/aggro towards them, but only for a few seconds. If they can't create enough real (long term) aggro, then the mob will run back to whoever it was on before at the end of the taunt duration.

Warriors have defensive stance, damage done in defensive stance is reduced, but hate is proportionally higher. Also, defensive stance opens several skills that add lots of hate without creating much damage.

Revenge is the best aggro gaining skill a warrior has, but he has to dodge/block/parry an incoming attack for it to be usable. Aside from that sunder armor can be used to create aggro, but the rage cost is fairly high (15).

The act of blocking attacks seems to generate aggro on the warrior/pally as well.

In generaly though, pally's SUCK at dealing damage, and so often you will find they have a hard time holding aggro unless they're really good. A warrior in battle stance has a tough time holding much aggro at level 20-ish (more than one mob at a time). Until they get whirlwind, they simply can't attack enough targets at once to effectively hold aggro of multiple targets. 1 maybe 2 and that's it. In defensive stance, a warrior can hold aggro of 4 targets or so, but you have to give the warrior some time to create the aggro, he needs to sunder each mob, shout, and use revenge a couple times.

This is where group tactics can make things smooth, or a big pain. There are two general methods I've seen of dealing with a group of mobs effectively. Both use the concept of a Main Assist (MA), who is generally the second highest defense of the group and can generate significant damage/hate (IMO shaman and druids in bear ar the best MA, but pallys and rogeus work okay)

1) warrior goes in and generates aggro for a few seconds. maybe two BIG heals worth of time. THen mage/warlock AoE all the monsters while the single target DPS classes go from one target to the next, always focusing on the same target as the MA. In this case the MA doesn't need to generate aggro, and honestly, I think it works best. The warrior has TONS of rage. But it requires lots of coordination and patience that you rarely see in a pickup group.

2) warrior goes in about the same time as everyone else, he generates aggro on every target EXCEPT the MA target. Everyone else focuses on the MA target. The idea is that you take down that target QUICK, while the warrior keeps the other mobs from going after the healers. Then the MA cycles to the next target.

To see someone else's target, use the 'F' key after selecting their picture. For example if the shaman is the MA, and he is the third member in your group, hit F3 and then F and you have the MA's target. Or select his picture with the mouse and hit F.

Aggro for healers is generated different from others. Healing generates about 1/2 to 1/4 the aggro of damage per point healed. It generates that hate on EVERY mob that is aware of the person you are healing. For example if a hunter pulls a linked set of mobs, he is on the list of all the mobs, but if a rogue hits the last one of those, he's only on the list of that one, so healing the hunter generates aggro on all the mobs, but healing the rogue only generates aggro on one. People in close enough priximity to mobs they haven't damaged will still be on their hate list. I'm not sure if a mage casts fireball at one mob in a group from far away if all the mobs become aware of the mage. Generally, such a case doesn't really matter, because he's not going to pull the others.

 

[Concillian]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Argo
Agro usually goes to whoever deals the most damage (or healing). Warriors have taunt to pull agro, pallys don't have anything AFAIK. That's why pallys who think they can be effective tanks in high level instances are sadly mistaken. I'm not sure how exactly agro works with healers, but with dps classes it's usually a good idea to let the tank build up agro for 10-15 seconds before you start attacking.

Pallies have a seal that increases their threat generation significantly. They also have a spell that damages anyone in a circle which helps with multiple enemies. Pallies can't be tanks in high level instances because they can't do enough damage. The pally damage slowly starts dwindling away from 40+ relative to other classes. You won't really notice a huge difference until high 50's, though. I actually prefer pally tanks for some instances, because most warriors do not have any concept of how to keep multiple enemies on them, whereas a pally can do this much more easily.

This is true some, but in many cases an impatient group can make it nearly impossible for a warrior to hold aggro for enough targets. If people give warriors enough time their lives are EASY, because they can generate rage just from having 4 mobs on them, and they can secure aggro on each by cycling through them. You are right in that there are too many warriors, even at level 40+ that have no idea it's their job to hold aggro, and nobody really cares how much damage they do, as long as they hold aggro on multiple targets. Too many just go after one target and that's it, while the rest of the group is dealing with the swarm of mobs on the healer.

I developed a friend in-game that I duo with a lot, we have two duos, a priest/mage duo that rocks the house on normal mobs (mage AoEs, priest heals, we run out of mobs to kill in an area because we kill them so fast), but we are at the mercy of others in instances. The other is Warrior/Shaman, where I am main tank and he is usually main assist (since we can usually find another healer so he doesn't have to be primary healer). This one is slower on normal mobs, only because we don't have the killer AoE of a mage (but it still does very well because I can hold aggro and he can heal), but man we slide through instances slicker than snot because it's virtually impossible for the rest of the party to ruin things when he and I have aggro WELL under control.