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My dad found out I'm agnostic

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Originally posted by: Zstream
I also find it funny you read the internet to make your decision. If you really wanted to learn and make a formal decision then DO IT. Quit reading the internet, get off your computer and get the library where you can find all the books written from every philospher in the world. You can read how communism was founded, you can read how the bible was placed together, you can read how some people think the order of man is through evolution. You can read counter arguments etc...

For the love of God please get off the net to make a decision.
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I have not come here asking what my beliefs should be. I came asking how I can mend my relationship with my father. My decision on my beliefs was one that I came to after several years of thinking and reading. Unlike most 15 year olds, I didn't jump to a decision because I embrace being a rebel or some other nonsense.

 
Originally posted by: Zstream
If a man did not believe in God or an afterlife of any kind he could never be trusted as he would not be logically driven to acknowledge any authority or principles outside himself.
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You were wrong from the start. Morality and ethics have a purely selfish and secular beginning to them. It is VERY logical for an atheist/agnostic to be moral and ethical. One does NOT need fear of a sky fairy to understand why morality and ethics are logical and a must.

If you can't figure out why, I truly feel sorry for you. As a matter of fact, I find anyone who requires fear of an invisible being to be moral and ethical to be FAR more untrustworthy than someone who understands the logic and selfish basis of morality and ethics.
 
Originally posted by: atybimf
Originally posted by: Zstream
I also find it funny you read the internet to make your decision. If you really wanted to learn and make a formal decision then DO IT. Quit reading the internet, get off your computer and get the library where you can find all the books written from every philospher in the world. You can read how communism was founded, you can read how the bible was placed together, you can read how some people think the order of man is through evolution. You can read counter arguments etc...

For the love of God please get off the net to make a decision.
Click to expand...
I have not come here asking what my beliefs should be. I came asking how I can mend my relationship with my father. My decision on my beliefs was one that I came to after several years of thinking and reading. Unlike most 15 year olds, I didn't jump to a decision because I embrace being a rebel or some other nonsense.
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i think it sucks that your relationship with your father has soured entirely over religion. my parents know i dont care for religion (though we dont discuss it) but we still have a great relationship

your father needs to do the same with you, maybe you should point that out.

personally, i dont *expect* my kids to agree with me their entire life, and will encourage them to read and think for themselves about religion and many other things, but having a good relationship with them will always be priority #1, no matter what we agree or disagree on.
 
Kudos to you for turning a critical eye to your faith and coming to your own decision.

The fact that your father can't handle it says more about him than it does about. It's not your place to have to "fix" anything. It's his place to realize that he can't force his faith upon you. Good luck.
 
Originally posted by: Sqube
Kudos to you for turning a critical eye to your faith and coming to your own decision.

The fact that your father can't handle it says more about him than it does about. It's not your place to have to "fix" anything. It's his place to realize that he can't force his faith upon you. Good luck.
Click to expand...

All kids go through this phase in their youth. Then when they grow up they realize their parents were right. They're just "confused".

1) People of faith are more happy, more successful, raise better kids, are kinder and are generally better members of society.

You can't argue with that.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Sqube
Kudos to you for turning a critical eye to your faith and coming to your own decision.

The fact that your father can't handle it says more about him than it does about. It's not your place to have to "fix" anything. It's his place to realize that he can't force his faith upon you. Good luck.
Click to expand...

All kids go through this phase in their youth. Then when they grow up they realize their parents were right. They're just "confused".

1) People of faith are more happy, more successful, raise better kids, are kinder and are generally better members of society.

You can't argue with that.
Click to expand...

Yes I can.
 
only thing you can do is to learn more about the subject matter. Do your own research so that you can formulate your own belief/opinions. Get to a library, read about religion, science, and once you are more knowledgable, maybe you can have a healthy double sided discussion with your pops.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Sqube
Kudos to you for turning a critical eye to your faith and coming to your own decision.

The fact that your father can't handle it says more about him than it does about. It's not your place to have to "fix" anything. It's his place to realize that he can't force his faith upon you. Good luck.
Click to expand...

All kids go through this phase in their youth. Then when they grow up they realize their parents were right. They're just "confused".

1) People of faith are more happy, more successful, raise better kids, are kinder and are generally better members of society.

You can't argue with that.
Click to expand...

Hardcore Christians have a much higher divorce rate than agnostics.

/pissing match
 
Originally posted by: Sqube
It's not your place to have to "fix" anything.
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Wrong. As humans it is our responsibility to maintain those relationships that we can. Given the scenario, it's perfectly reasonable for the OP to make such efforts as he can (while maintaining an intellectual honesty to himself) to mend the relationship with his father. It's a fundamental part of being human.

ZV
 
Originally posted by: Zstream
I will use Moore's reasoning

If a man did not believe in God or an afterlife of any kind he could never be trusted as he would not be logically driven to acknowledge any authority or principles outside himself.
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Someone who only does what's right so that he can go to heaven is the one who should not be trusted.

First Way: The Argument From Motion
St. Thomas Aquinas, studying the works of the Greek philsopher Aristotle, concluded from common observation that an object that is in motion (e.g. the planets, a rolling stone) is put in motion by some other object or force. From this, Aquinas believes that ultimately there must have been an UNMOVED MOVER (GOD) who first put things in motion. Follow the agrument this way:
1) Nothing can move itself.
2) If every object in motion had a mover, then the first object in motion needed a mover.
3) This first mover is the Unmoved Mover, called God.
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This is medieval, pre Newtonian, thought. They did not know that an object in motion stays in motion and neither do you apparently. I find your lack of basic science to be really disturbing if you were taught by the American school system. This isn't something complex like ecology, quantum science, or relativity. It's 400 year old common knowledge.

Second Way: Causation Of Existence
This Way deals with the issue of existence. Aquinas concluded that common sense observation tells us that no object creates itself. In other words, some previous object had to create it. Aquinas believed that ultimately there must have been an UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE (GOD) who began the chain of existence for all things. Follow the agrument this way:
1) There exists things that are caused (created) by other things.
2) Nothing can be the cause of itself (nothing can create itself.)
3) There can not be an endless string of objects causing other objects to exist.
4) Therefore, ther must be an uncaused first cause called God.
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"Common sense" is not necessarily what is true. For most of humanity's existence, people thought that if you walked far enough, you'd fall off the earth. Why? Because it's common sense that you fall if something isn't holding you up, and there's only one direction to fall! What makes it logical to believe that there is an "uncaused first cause" called God?

Third Way: Contingent and Neccessary Objects
This Way defines two types of objects in the universe: contingent beings and necessary beings. A contingent being is an object that can not exist without a necessary being causing its existence. Aquinas believed that the existence of contingent beings would ultimately neccesitate a being which must exist for all of the contingent beings to exist. This being, called a necessary being, is what we call God. Follow the argument this way:
1) Contingent beings are caused.
2) Not every being can be contingent.
3) There must exist a being which is necessary to cause contingent beings.
4) This necessary being is God.
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WTF?

Fourth Way: The Agrument From Degrees And Perfection
St. Thomas formulated this Way from a very interesting observation about the qualities of things. For example one may say that of two marble scultures one is more beautiful than the other. So for these two objects, one has a greater degree of beauty than the next. This is referred to as degrees or gradation of a quality. From this fact Aquinas concluded that for any given quality (e.g. goodness, beauty, knowledge) there must be an perfect standard by which all such qualities are measured. These perfections are contained in God.
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That's pure nonsense- Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. Ideas of perfection are human constructions.

Fifth Way: The Agrument From Intelligent Design
The final Way that St. Thomas Aquinas speaks of has to do with the observable universe and the order of nature. Aquinas states that common sense tells us that the universe works in such a way, that one can conclude that is was designed by an intelligent designer, God. In other words, all physical laws and the order of nature and life were designed and ordered by God, the intellgent designer.
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The universe was designed by a giant alien.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Sqube
Kudos to you for turning a critical eye to your faith and coming to your own decision.

The fact that your father can't handle it says more about him than it does about. It's not your place to have to "fix" anything. It's his place to realize that he can't force his faith upon you. Good luck.
Click to expand...

All kids go through this phase in their youth. Then when they grow up they realize their parents were right. They're just "confused".

1) People of faith are more happy, more successful, raise better kids, are kinder and are generally better members of society.

You can't argue with that.
Click to expand...

not believeing in God isn't nescecarrily just a "phase" that kids go through, its not like everyone who decided they don't believe in God when they were a teenager suddenly reverts back when they become an adult. I do however believe Chrisian people are generally happier and kinder than atheists although this is jsut on average and says nothing about any single person. Personally I am an atheist, I stopped beleiveing in God the same time as santa clause and easter bunny (thrid grade), so it wasn't a teenage phase since I wasn't a teenager at the time. However, nobody I know in real life outside of my family knows I am an atheist and I aim to keep it that way. I fully intend that I will likely marry a christian girl and raise kids to be Christian, I have no problem with that, If my kids want to be Chrsitian than I will be fine with that, If they want to be atheist than I will be fine with that. So long as they are TOLERENT of other people that is what matters most. What I can't stand is people on either side who think they are supperior than the other. And I am not just agnostic here, I KNOW God doesn't exist as much as I know anything in life.
 
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Sqube
Kudos to you for turning a critical eye to your faith and coming to your own decision.

The fact that your father can't handle it says more about him than it does about. It's not your place to have to "fix" anything. It's his place to realize that he can't force his faith upon you. Good luck.
Click to expand...

All kids go through this phase in their youth. Then when they grow up they realize their parents were right. They're just "confused".

1) People of faith are more happy, more successful, raise better kids, are kinder and are generally better members of society.

You can't argue with that.
Click to expand...

not believeing in God isn't nescecarrily just a "phase" that kids go through, its not like everyone who decided they don't believe in God when they were a teenager suddenly reverts back when they become an adult. I do however believe Chrisian people are generally happier and kinder than atheists although this is jsut on average and says nothing about any single person. Personally I am an atheist, I stopped beleiveing in God the same time as santa clause and easter bunny (thrid grade), so it wasn't a teenage phase since I wasn't a teenager at the time. However, nobody I know in real life outside of my family knows I am an atheist and I aim to keep it that way. I fully intend that I will likely marry a christian girl and raise kids to be Christian, I have no problem with that, If my kids want to be Chrsitian than I will be fine with that, If they want to be atheist than I will be fine with that. So long as they are TOLERENT of other people that is what matters most. What I can't stand is people on either side who think they are supperior than the other. And I am not just agnostic here, I KNOW God doesn't exist as much as I know anything in life.
Click to expand...

I think that's pretty obvious. Many people assume a label of atheist more for rebellious purposes than any sort of philisophical or spiritual conclusions; to me, this is precisely what's wrong with the silly label (or any label for that matter) in the first place.

Most atheists don't pronounce it, and many will pronounce themselves Christian even when they are truly atheists. I believe someone in a previous thread found research showing that atheists were the most detested minorities. It's not a surprise to find that most people would rather say they're Christian than face the consequences. This is analogous to other emerging minorities (e.g. homosexuals) that suffered from decades (or even centuries) or repression for fear of social consequences.

The point is that drawing any conclusions about "people of faith are <insert emotion here>" is ill-conceived and fraught with inaccuracies.

IMO
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
All kids go through this phase in their youth. Then when they grow up they realize their parents were right. They're just "confused".
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😕

When I was a teenager and essentially began thinking for myself, I too looked at Catholicism and Christianity as a whole, and rejected it as just so much baseless nonsense. Now I am 38, consider myself to be "grown up", and I still reject it as just so much baseless nonsense.

I'm not confused about it either.
 
Your dad's probably disappointed you changed your entire religious view from a website... lol As I'm sure many others do.
 
I still fail to understand why people feel the need to constantly share their religious views with others, or worry about what others believe.

Believe what you want, and leave me out of it. I might believe the exact same thing, but that's my business.

If religion was so obvious, and so indisputably fact, then IMO there would only be one church/faith for everyone. Not thousands. Catholic, Presbo's, all kinds of Baptists, Methodists, Lutheran, etc, etc....they all read the same Bible and come to different conclusions.

If it was so clear, this wouldn't be the case. And people wouldn't feel the need to worry about whether others believe the same thing they do. It's almost as if some want others to believe the same thing to validate their own beliefs and kill any doubts they may have.
 
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Your dad's probably disappointed you changed your entire religious view from a website... lol As I'm sure many others do.
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did you even read the original post?
 
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Your dad's probably disappointed you changed your entire religious view from a website... lol As I'm sure many others do.
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Others here are disappointed in your ability to read and comprehend. That is NOT what his post said.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Sqube
Kudos to you for turning a critical eye to your faith and coming to your own decision.

The fact that your father can't handle it says more about him than it does about. It's not your place to have to "fix" anything. It's his place to realize that he can't force his faith upon you. Good luck.
Click to expand...

All kids go through this phase in their youth. Then when they grow up they realize their parents were right. They're just "confused".

1) People of faith are more happy, more successful, raise better kids, are kinder and are generally better members of society.

You can't argue with that.
Click to expand...

Oh shut up.

One of the most annoying things that people who think that they're "correct" do is call different opinions a phase. As if it's a phase. Are you that afraid of differing ideas that you have to make yourself believe that it's just a phase? People of faith are not more happy, more successful, raise better kids, or kinder to people. Hell, I'd argue that religious fundamentalism is the worst disease to plague mankind.

I'm 21, atheist and 100% NOT confused. I'm happy, I'm raking in the dough, and I'm probably nicer to people than you are, what with having to have worked as a CSR for some time.

You're no better than atheists and agnostics. You can't argue with THAT.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Sqube
Kudos to you for turning a critical eye to your faith and coming to your own decision.

The fact that your father can't handle it says more about him than it does about. It's not your place to have to "fix" anything. It's his place to realize that he can't force his faith upon you. Good luck.
Click to expand...

All kids go through this phase in their youth. Then when they grow up they realize their parents were right. They're just "confused".

1) People of faith are more happy, more successful, raise better kids, are kinder and are generally better members of society.

You can't argue with that.
Click to expand...

That statement is more foolish than what doke said. You just pulled it out of thin air with absolutely no evidence, then concluded it by assuming it's a statement of fact. Perhaps that is your observation. But let me ask you... how many agnostics and atheists do you really know? And how many are lesser members of society than your "people of faith"? Perhaps you consider someone is a "better member of society" when they donate to your church or take part in your Sunday School bake sales.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Sqube
Kudos to you for turning a critical eye to your faith and coming to your own decision.

The fact that your father can't handle it says more about him than it does about. It's not your place to have to "fix" anything. It's his place to realize that he can't force his faith upon you. Good luck.
Click to expand...

All kids go through this phase in their youth. Then when they grow up they realize their parents were right. They're just "confused".

1) People of faith are more happy, more successful, raise better kids, are kinder and are generally better members of society.

You can't argue with that.
Click to expand...

Apparently people of faith are more likely to be judgmental arseholes too.
 
Is that the same as being young and emo? It certainly sounds like it, since at the ripe old age of 13 I really doubt you had the experience and the reasoning powers to decide whether there is a God or not. You may think you do, but you don't.
 
Originally posted by: manowar821
I'm 21, atheist and 100% NOT confused. I'm happy, I'm raking in the dough, and I'm probably nicer to people than you are, what with having to have worked as a CSR for some time.

You're no better than atheists and agnostics. You can't argue with THAT.
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LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I rest my case.
 
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