My 1GHZ TB is way to hot! Need Expert Advice!

[Lonewalker]

Hey all,

My bro and I each put together a 1ghz Thunderbird system. Specs: 256 pc-133, ibm deskstar, Geforce 2 etc...

We bought a case from www.colorcase.com. Here is a url to the type of case we bought:
http://www.colorcase.com/products/case/translucent/rainbow.html
We both got a black case with a 250 watt Fortune power supply.

Alrighty, we installed all the compentents once we had them all shipped to us and we were off and running... installing Windows and drivers.
Though we both started to experience A LOT of lock ups. A hard reboot was the only way to get the system up again. After a lot of frustration we both think its that these cpus are running way to hot. I obviously don't have much experience with cooling a system and I really didn't plan properly for it.
We just have 1 80mm fan in the front of each case and the power supply blowing out from the back. The Leadtek Geforece 2 has its own fan.

Here are the temp readings I am getting from the Bios.
Current CPU Temp ranges from 39-55C. Around the 40C mark our systems really start to lock up a lot. Current System Temp is around 37-33C.
From what I have read this is pretty hot. Is this true? I don't even know what temp is advised for a 1GHZ TB.

What do you experts advice my bro and I do? We each have a new system that we really can't even use. Do you think this is what is causing the constant lock-ups on our systems?
The lock ups are happening from all different angles, using my cdrw, coping files, playing games, listening to mp3s etc.. I have defraged, ran all of Nortan systemworks programs and they all say everything is clean and good to go.

Also can someone please advice us on what action we can take to get these cpus/systems cool enough to run all day in our room with the hot Las Vegas summers. What is the best cpu cooler we can get for our Slot A cpus. Btw, we both have a Iwill KK-266 Motherboard.

On to the next question. We each have one stick of 256 Micron pc-133 ram.
Now when I power up my machine, the intial read sequence on the right hand side reads DRAM = 100mhz. Isn't that supposed to read 133mhz? How can I changed it to 133? Or am I reading this wrong.

Alrighty, so please everyone advise us if these temp for the cpu and system are to hot and if so, what type of cpu/system fans can we install on SLOT A cpu. I need your expert advice as we are both are pretty ingnorant on the issue of cooling a system properly!
Any urls and detailed info would rock!
Thanks for your time and help!

Justin

 

[Mikewarrior2]

isn't the kk266 a socket-a board? If so, your temps are definately too high considering the iwill board reads temps pretty low compared to core...

So, a few questions... waht heatsink are you using, and are you using thermal grease?


Mike

 

[SuperKen!]

Are those CPU temps from FULL load, or IDLE?
It its under full load, the temps (while not great) are adequate.

When a system is crashing from CPU temp being too hot, it is usually in the form of a program generation a error, or a BSOD. Full hardware lock-ups are caused from something else.

So, I would start looking at something other than CPU temp causing your systems to crash.

 

[Lonewalker]

Hey guys,

Yea, my bad, I meant Socket A.

Hmm, what are some good methods of narrowing in on the lock-up problem?

btw, this cpu is an AMD retail box. So they provided the heatsink and fan.

 

[DeathFlame]

What about operating system? OS, Drivers, hardware conflict, those could all be the source of yoru problem. My machine is constanlty running (full load AND idle for some weird reason) at High 50's sometiems 60, 61 degrees. [Don't worry, I'm correcting that right away, gonna water cool]

Anyways, I never lock up. I doubt the temperature is killing you.

 

[AG73]

those temps really don't sound too high at all. the athlon tbird is spec'd to run up to 90C (check the amd site if you dont' believe me). Of course, when my own 1ghz tbird hit 60C it would start to lock up. I really doubt you're having a temperature problem though. For temp related stuff, check this thread:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=37&threadid=368415

when you say you did the norton system works thing, i take it that means you scanned ALL files for viruses with *recent* virus definitions? This could explain lots of weird computer problems. Another thing to try - take advantage of win98's troubleshooters. I was having lockups also (system was not overheating) and I systematically went through one of their troubleshooters and it turned out to be a hardware snafu - problem with floppy protected mode drivers.

as for 133 vs 100 mhz ram, check the bios. in mine, there's a setting to set the ram at something like "system bus +33" which makes it 133.

good luck
AG

 

[Mikewarrior2]

LoneWalker,

Did you remove the blue sticker covering the "Thermal pad" on the heatsink before moutning the heatsink?

AG73,

Yes, we all know AMD's rated DIE temperature is 90C, but socket-thermistors don't measure die temp. On a mb where the thermsitor doesn't contact pcb and solely measures socket-air, adn does not add any compensation to it, 55C and up usually is unstable. Your own numbers of above 60C leading to instability leads credence to that 60C is probably closer to 90C than you want to think about...


Mike

 

[mechBgon]

Keep in mind that Iwill has issued a recall on the KK266 because of some hardware issues forcing incorrect voltage, among other things. My buddy osmo had these problems and had to return his KK266.

Furthermore, your case cooling will benefit from having an 80mm exhaust fan beside the CPU on the rear panel; this is a requirement for an AMD-Athlon-approved case. If you have the tools to cut a hole and install an 80mm case fan on the rear panel, or even a high-output 60mm, that will help keep the case temperature a lot lower.

 

[Lonewalker]

Thanks for everyones help and advice. We are learning a lot here. You guys know your stuff!

The reason we think it?s an over heating problem is that the systems are stable for the first 15-25 minutes and then they just start dieing.

We reboot after a hard lock and they will lock up again 3-7 mins after that. Also, my brothers machine just dies. Heres what happens. You do about anything, play a game, watch a dvd, copying files etc.. And the monitor just goes black. The systems power light is still on but the system just locks up. The signal from the video card must lock up or something because the monitor is getting no signal from it. Resulting in a black screen.

Does this lead you experts to think that the power supply (Fortune 250W) is cutting out on over usage or that the system overheats and shuts down? He doesn't have a cdrw like me. So he just has a SB live, IBM deskstar and DVD in his PCI slots.

Mikewarrior 2 thats very insightful about the "true" temp comment. I was really wondering about that. Yes we did remove the tag from the CPU. We are using no thermal grease. Though after you remove the sticker off a AMD retail boxed cpu, what is that stuff thats below it? Right now all we have for cpu cooling is retail box fan/heatsink combo. So Mike could we safely say that the reading of 50-55C could be closer to 55-65C? How "excact" are these Bios temp readings anyways. Any more specific comments on this would be great Mike. Thanks

Something that would really help is an exact model of fan that you experts know works very well with Socket A cpus (1ghz TB). Even if it were the power supply, I would like to upgrade the current "retail" heatsink and fan on our cpus now.

Also, is there a way of adding a second 80mm fan in the black of the case without having to cut a hole for it? On the back of my case it has a long medal area with holes cut all through it. Could I place one on that and have it suck the air out through those holes? How exactly do you place a fan on the back of a case? The company that I bought the cases from said it could handle 1 80mm fan in the front and 1 40mm in the back. I have only 1 in the front. Here is the url to my case: http://www.colorcase.com/products/case/translucent/rainbow.html

Is their a type of heatink and fan that comes with this cooling "gel" on the bottom of the heatsink pre smoothed on. Sort of a all in one combo deal. Please recommend an awesome heatsink and fan for our Socket A cpus. I am totally in the dark when it comes to cooling!

For a test and I going to run our house air-conditioning system for while to get it a lot cooler in our rooms and then open up our cases and put big fans next to them and see if we still get this over heating problem.

I will resurface after that. Anymore helpful insights on the "locking up" and "black screen" problems would mean a lot.

Thanks again everyone for all the help. We really apprciate it!

Justin

 

[mechBgon]

Here is a handy page at AMD with configuration information and recommended heatsinks, power supplies and case ventilation guidelines: AMD's Athlon configuration page. I looked at the link to your case and the Fortron power supply, it appears to be AMD-approved so you are ok there. If you have a set of holesaws, you might be able to install a 60mm fan where the 40mm fan was intended to be. I would get something with at least 20 to 25 cubic feet per minute, you can find fans at www.2cooltek.com, www.plycon.com, www.millisec.com, www.phamcomputer.com, www.caseetc.com, and a bunch more besides.

For a high-capacity heatsink/fan unit that doesn't cost too much, the GlobalWin FOP32-1 is a good one. Use thermal grease with it for maximum thermal transfer. Several of those fan vendors have it, another nice one is the Alpha PAL6035 with the YS Tech fan. Millisec has that combo available. The Alpha is actually not on AMD's approval list, maybe because it's black (long story).

You can test the temperature issue by simply running your computer with the case open, and putting a house fan a few feet away aiming into the side. I still suspect you and your brother have "bad" KK266's. Regarding the speed at which the motherboard is running the RAM, you should be able to change that manually in the BIOS.

 

[Mikewarrior2]

Yeah, you could assume that the temps are that much higher in actuality, or could be even higher. You can check my signature for more info. Of course, sometimes the temp "guesses" by the bios are almost correct, so sometimes it doesn't matter, and at other times can be 15-20C off.

As far as the pad that's left behind, that's a PCTC pad, its a phase-change silicone-based thermal pad that performs decently.

As has been suggested by MechBgon, try running the computer without the case cover on. See if that drops your temp "readings" at all.


Mike

 

[SuperKen!]

Well, since he has bought a retail Athlon, it comes with a Taisol HSF already.

So we can rule out that the HSF is underperforming (unless its not properly installed, but im pretty sure in this case it is).

 

[SammyBoy]

I am suprised you guys arent yelling at him about his psu. I have heard people say that it is obviously their power supply when they were running a Tbird 800 and a 300W generic. I dont know about all of this stuff, but it seems not enough power running through his rig could at least be adding to the people.

 

[mechBgon]

His power supply appears on AMD's "approved" list for 1.0GHz Thunderbirds, although most people around here seem to feel better about 300W+ power supplies.

 

[smp]

I vote bad motherboard.. cause both of them have the same problem and both of them got the same components from the same dealer.. so if the dealer had bad stock in.. they both got it.. and they're both having the same problem.. doesn't sound like a heat problem to me.. unless the north bridge is heating up too much.. maybe that's it.. I don't know.
Good heatsink and fan combos --->
fop 32 or fop 38
alpha 6035 , alpha pep66
taisol cgk##### (?) someone else will know this one..
kanie hedgehog

so on... a good thermal grease to use it arctic silver...
there are a number of sites to find info on this stuff, everyone and their mom is overclocking nowadays, so it's easy to find info with pics on how to install a hsf and thermal compound and stuff.. good luck.

 

[shikhan]

I'm no where near an expert on this but my first instinct was that their powersource was inadequate and the cause of it... For my 600 tbrid system, AMD reccomended a min 300 W system.... I would figure the same for his.. and it would tend to fit the patterns wouldnt it?

 

[Bad Dude]

You guys are no where near the solution. I don't know much about the Iwill boards but with the Abit KT7A-RAID, if you set every in the BIOS to normal, the temp will drop by 10C. I will assume that you got everything cranked up in the BIOS. You should set the RAM to CAS 3 instead of CAS 2. This alone prevents my system from crashing in WIN2K. In the CPU BIOS setup, I turn the following settings off:
-Fast CPU Command Decode--Normal instead of fast.
-CPU drive strength to 2.
-Enhance chip performance---Disable.
-Force 4-way interleave---Disable.

By setting the above 4 settings, I dropped the temp by 10C. Try that with similar settings on your IWILL board. Also make sure the heatsink is contacting with the core well. To test this, press on the heatsink slightly when the computer is running. Becareful not to crush the core. If the heatsink is not on tight, you will see the temp drop right away. Sometimes the heatsink is tighter on one side than the other, slightly tilting the heatsink will drop the temp too. If this is the case then you will need to get some ties to tie the heatsink down tight but not so tight as to crush the core. This is a big problem for AMD chips right now, it is the soft core.
As for the monitor blacking out, increase the I/O voltage to 3.4V but not more than that. If this solves the problem, then your AGP card is drawing too much power and that's all. Run a few games. With AMD systems, it is more important to run it stable than with speed and unstable. This happens to me too. However, I have a DEER PS and so far no major problems. Perhaps I don't have time to play that much games any more. But my problem was more with the Radeon drivers. You should turn off the power management on your video and monitor. There seems to be a problem with the VIA chipset with this settings for me too. Now I have no more problem with it. I think the PS that we both got is just barely enough. If all of this do not help you with stability then it might be the PS. Get a good quality one and don't worry so much with the Wattage. Then again, most PS now days are sold with AMD in mind at 300W or more. I guess the only way to beat Intel quality is to overclock the chips to compete and this is why all the power and heat problems.
Good luck.

 

[Lonewalker]

Hi all,

Thanks again for all the great replys and info. Thanks to everyone that told us how to get our dram memory to 133 mhz in the bios. It worked great! You guys rock!

Well, I opened up my case and put 2 small but powerful fans next to my case blowing into the opening. The system never crashed once. I played some games, ran a scandisk on my hd and then just left it on with a 3d nivida demo running for 3 hours. The CPU never got past 33C on full load.

So I guess it is the over heating of the CPU that is causing the lockups. Though I think we are going to get a 300-350 watt AMD approved power supply also.

Now for some more questions How am I going to cool these bad boys with just small fans inside the case.
I know I need to add a 40mm fan in the rear of the case. My current case has room for one 40 mm fan in the back. But for the CPU fan, I am thinking of this one: GlobalWin WBK38 Socket A/370 38CFM.
Here is a link to it:
http://millisec.safeshopper.com/53/450.htm?861
Now it says its the "Newest" one. Also, it says it has the thermal grease preapplied. Would this be a good fan/heatsink combo to get? Would I need to apply another type of thermal grease or would the grease that is preapplied work well enough? Remember we aren't overclocking these cpus. I just want them to be cool

A lot of replys I have been getting say this GlobalWin with the 60mm fan is pretty good. Though very loud. I am not sure, as I have NO experience in cooling a system. I really don't mind it being loud but is their another option to cool this system, without such a loud fan? But I know we need something powerful enough to cool these cpus.

My question is why doesn't the fan and heatsink from the "Retail" Athlon box cool these cpus enough so I don't have to buy a bigger fan? I am not overclocking the cpu in any way. I have the 1 80mm fan in the front of the case and I agree that putting a 40mm in the back is needed....
but it seems odd to me that I HAVE to get a huge fan/heatsink to make this puppy run.

I wonder if the 250 watt power supply has any to do with this. I now one person said that the lack of power to my system could cause more resistence on the inner workings of the cpu and cause the it to heat up more.
What do you all think?

What about the Golden Orb Fan? Would that be a good compremise? This unit here looks pretty sweet:
DU0462-3 (Super Orb)
http://www.thermaltake.com/superorb.htm

In the future we want to be able to pop in a 1.5 ghz TB and put in a Geforce 3. So I am looking for a fan/heatsink that can grow with this. Thats another reason why I think just getting a 300-350 watt Power supply now is a good idea. TO be be able to give enough juice in the future to upgrades.

Alrighty, so thats the high and low end of it.

To review the questions I have for you experts, here they are:

1. Why do we need to upgrade from our "retail" AMD boxed fan/heatsink when they are provided by AMD as comparable cooling solution. Why do our systems overheat when we are not even overclocking them? Is this normal?

2. What type of fan/heatsink should we get for our Socket A 1ghz. We plan to put in a 1.5 ghz when the TB tops out. The golden orb looks good for a nice balance between what we have now and the GlobalWin WBK38.
But you guys know best. What should we do for cooling!?

Thanks for your time and help!
Justin

 

[SuperKen!]

The Reatil AMD HSF should be adequate at cooling the CPU.
I dont know why it doesnt, since it doesnt you have every right to call AMD and have the replace either the HSF or CPU.

The WBK-38 is not just loud, its EXREMELY loud, it has a high pitched whine that people describe sounding like a blow dryer. Stay away from that one unless you can ABSOLUTELY stand that kind of noise.

DO NOT get a golden ORB for a T-bird, the G-orb is made for Intel FC-PGA CPU's, and when applied to a Socket A CPU, it will immediately crush the CPU die, rendering the CPU dead.
Now the crome and Super ORB are the ones for Socket A CPU's. Again, with the GORB, stay away from this one. Performance on the orbs are aweful.

I would recommend a Taisol CGK 752 for the best performance to noise ratio, but the AMD retail HSF is a Taisol CEK73xxx. So im not sure if you would be comfortable going that route.

 

[Lonewalker]

Thanks a lot for the great help SuperKen.

Where can I find the Taisol CGK 752?
http://store.yahoo.com/taisol/amdcpusoccoo.html
Taisol online store doesn't seem to list it.

Thanks!

 

[Wingster]

Get it off pricewatch.com =]

 

[SuperKen!]

Sorry, I meant the Taisol CGK 742

You can get it right here

Im not sure how loud the other fans are.

I would recommend staying away from the Delta 38 fan, cause that one sounds like a blow dryer.
I hear the YStech fan is a good compromise between noise and performance.
But I just use the stock fan it came with, and it performs like a champ already.

 

[Lonewalker]

Great! Thanks for all your help SuperKen!

 

[Jalapeno]

Here is what I would do:

- Keep your HS/Fan,

- Get a better power supply,

- Definitely get another CASE with better air circulation and more options for fans to install (a 40mm fan in the back won't cut it...).

 

[Nerdwannabe]

<< Well, since he has bought a retail Athlon, it comes with a Taisol HSF already.

So we can rule out that the HSF is underperforming (unless its not properly installed, but im pretty sure in this case it is). >>



PS: retail socket A fan is not Taisol.