Muslim Speaker Tells Of Islam's Plan For Europe And America

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BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
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Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Vic
I've read the Quran cover to cover twice, thank you. I even have a copy of the Asad translation in my bookcase. Along with a good deal of medieval Islamic poetry, like Rumi (who I am quite fond of). It is in fact a religion every bit as much as Christianity. I have also read the Bible several times and in different translations. At one point in my life, I found religious studies to be quite fascinating.
Your paranoid logic is like pointing to Leviticus in the Bible and then calling Judaism or Christianity a political ideology because of the Law of Moses. And let's not even get into Jesus' radical politics, eh?

And then I could point to Christianity's extensive history of authoritarian government, the Pope and the Church in Rome, the Christian monarchs in Europe (a few of which still exist), the puritan colony in Massachusetts, 'blue laws' in the United States, etc etc and OMG, I think I just blew to pieces this argument you claimed I couldn't fight.

I think we've said it some time ago, it means fuck all what the various religious books mean and means everything in how the followers of that religion act.

I frankly havent read the Quran and have no desire to. I dont need to read the religious book to form an opinion of Islam, I need but watch how the savages act to know everything I need to know. It doesnt matter what the Quran says.

As they say, actions speak louder then words.

Really, so ALL Muslims, or a majority of Muslims, act like "savages"?

Thats for you to decide.

What is the Solution?, you seem to know all the answers...why don't you share them? You're quick to laundry list all the evils of Islam, and decry any discussion that isn't derogatory. You're quick to declaim Islam. But I've yet to see an answer, a solution.

So, here you go.....

How do we deal with the very real element of radical, dangerous Islam that does exist out there, while allowing the vast majority of Muslims, who are reasonable and decent people, to live in peace and freedom to practice their religion? (Or is that oxymoronic in your mind?)

Do we ban Islam in America, jail or deport all Muslims, and prevent anyone Arab or Muslim from entering the U.S.?

Do all Western nations ban Islam, jail or deport Muslims, and prevent anyone Arab or Muslim from entering their countries?

Do we bomb all Islamic countries into the middle ages?

Is it a diplomatic solution? A military solution?

What is your vision of how to solve this? What would eliminate your Islamophobia? What would have to happen for you to stop being afraid that Muslims are out to get you/us/America/the world?

Most phobics believe in avoiding the trigger of their phobia. What happens to you when you see a mosque? Or a woman in hejab? Do you break out in a sweat? Or in your experiences, have you gone out of your way to avoid anywhere you might encounter anyone or anything Muslim, as a way to manage your phobia? Is this your answer on a national or global scale?

I don't know if you just want to bluster about it, or if you actually have a solution.

So, if you want to be taken seriously, and not dismissed as another nutso catastrophist walking around wearing a tinfoil hat screaming "The Muslims are Coming to Get Us," then why don't you share with us exactly what your solution is?
 

BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
1,055
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0
Originally posted by: Socio
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Socio

You are wrong, they can not simultaneously exist in one entity; for example the democrats could not declare themselves a church with all the rights of a church because that would be direct conflict with separation of church and state and the democrats would either have to dissolve their party or their church!

What in the holy hell are you talking about?

This;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...on_of_church_and_state

Separation of church and state is a political and legal doctrine that government and religious institutions are to be kept separate and independent from each other.[1] The term most often refers to the combination of two principles: secularity of government and freedom of religious exercise.[2]

Islam has both government and religious institutions built into its belief structure which cannot be separated, thus Muslims have no choice but to reject secularism for it excludes the law of Allah.

Secularism cannot be a solution for countries with a Muslim majority or even a sizeable minority, for it requires them to replace their God-given beliefs with an entirely different set of man-made beliefs. Separation of religion and state is not an option for Muslims because it requires them to abandon Allah's decree for that of a man.

So what do you do?

The only logical recourse is to declare Islam not a religion before they reach majority or even a sizeable minority since it cannot exist in a secular society. This would neuter its ability to protect its political ideology with its religion and limit its power so that secularism can hopefully keep the upper hand.

Crusading against a whole religion is just too quixotic... changing all those minds is not going to accomplished by anything but another mass extinction, and an asteroid would take us down with them. Anyone who is trying to nudge the bulk of those millions into a way of looking at the world that "plays better with others" is doing a service. And people indulging in knee-jerk alarmist reactions, heartfelt as they may be, are not.

Islam as a philosophy is only as dangerous as its adherents' interpretation of it. Shift the interpretation, and you remove the danger. The same thing happened with Christianity, earlier. Anyone looking at what Ferdinand and Isabella set fire too when they kicked the last Muslims and Jews out of Spain, the 300 years of ongoing persecution and bloodletting and intolerance that was the Inquisition, would be excused for saying that Christianity is an evil, dangerous, bankrupt philosophy. Trust me, the torturers were able to find scriptural backup for what they were doing.

We got out of it. Muslims can, too.

 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Vic
I've read the Quran cover to cover twice, thank you. I even have a copy of the Asad translation in my bookcase. Along with a good deal of medieval Islamic poetry, like Rumi (who I am quite fond of). It is in fact a religion every bit as much as Christianity. I have also read the Bible several times and in different translations. At one point in my life, I found religious studies to be quite fascinating.
Your paranoid logic is like pointing to Leviticus in the Bible and then calling Judaism or Christianity a political ideology because of the Law of Moses. And let's not even get into Jesus' radical politics, eh?

And then I could point to Christianity's extensive history of authoritarian government, the Pope and the Church in Rome, the Christian monarchs in Europe (a few of which still exist), the puritan colony in Massachusetts, 'blue laws' in the United States, etc etc and OMG, I think I just blew to pieces this argument you claimed I couldn't fight.

I think we've said it some time ago, it means fuck all what the various religious books mean and means everything in how the followers of that religion act.

I frankly havent read the Quran and have no desire to. I dont need to read the religious book to form an opinion of Islam, I need but watch how the savages act to know everything I need to know. It doesnt matter what the Quran says.

As they say, actions speak louder then words.

Really, so ALL Muslims, or a majority of Muslims, act like "savages"?

Thats for you to decide.

Indeed...and I think my views on that question are pretty clear. I think the majority of Muslims are no more objectionable than the members of any other major religion, and I think the minority we need to be worried about are characterized by far more objectionable traits than being Muslim.

But no fair avoiding the question. Your posts in this thread clearly indicate that you too have an answer to that question...so let's hear it.

I'm not avoiding the question. I would have asumed my posts up to this point have made my position quite clear. Am I mistaken? Or do I get a hall pass to tell you what I really think? ;)
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
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0
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Vic
That's because the problem that people are becoming aware of is the neo-nazi ilk like you Socio.

Consider, what possible 'solution' do you have for the Islam 'problem' besides infringing on the basic 1st amendment guarantee of freedom of religion?

How about not forcing that religion down anyone elses throat? Oh, how about not catering to them? I know, how about we not reengineer our entire society for the benefit of a very small minority.

Naw, fuck that. Lets make the rules so the 99% of the people have to tip toe around so as to not piss off the 1%.......

:roll: These kinds of threads always bring out the paranoid cowards.

Not taking the Pepsi Challenge?

Indeed, paranoid cowards. ;)
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Specop 007

I'm not avoiding the question. I would have asumed my posts up to this point have made my position quite clear. Am I mistaken? Or do I get a hall pass to tell you what I really think? ;)

I for one would love for you to indulge us and spell out in a post exactly what you would like to see done.
 

seemingly random

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2007
5,277
0
0
Every:
* second an illegal alien is making a wealthy employer wealthier

-------------------------

Time to put some employers in prison for contributing to sex-crimes and murders?

How's your 401k doing?

Feeling frustrated? between a rock and a hard place? principles a little tattered? Let's pick another group to hate ... like muslims ... yeah, that's the ticket.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
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0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I only bring it up because it doesn't seem clear to me what the SECOND step is from your ranting about the problem. Assuming I take your warnings seriously, the problem you describe is so large and so vague that the solution seems unobvious. So how exactly DO we combat this Islamic threat? Fight terrorism by throwing cab drivers in jail if they don't want to transport alcohol? Expel college students who petition to have foot baths installed?

You talk about this big threat to western civilization itself, yet the only examples you can come up with seem ridiculously petty by comparison. So I feel compelled to ask, just what course of action do you suggest?

Why do you hate the first amendment? ;)


Socio, Butterbean, and Specop 007 have no course of action, that's my beef here. Or at least no course of action that they're going to be willing to speak publicly.

I stated where to start. You dismiss it as "isolated incidents". Look, if I give you examples of where are problems are starting and you dismiss them just what in the hell do you expect of me?? :confused:

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Vic

Uh... why should I do something for the sake of your principles? In order for me to walk my talk, then I have to stick to being (religiously) impartial. Or have you not read any of my posts here? I'm not defending Islam, I'm attacking Neo-Nazis, nationalism, and religious bigotry. Which thread have you been reading?

The thread where you would ignore Separation of Church and State for the benefit of the Islamic community??

Originally posted by: Vic
That's because the problem that people are becoming aware of is the neo-nazi ilk like you Socio.

Consider, what possible 'solution' do you have for the Islam 'problem' besides infringing on the basic 1st amendment guarantee of freedom of religion?

Where did I do that? Because I know that I didn't. The post you quoted is where I asked Socio what solution he could possibly have that would not infringe on the 1st amendment. I could ask the same of you.

Well, lets see for a minute....How about keeping the practice of religion out of school?? Oh, thats a good start isnt it. How about not defending an individuals rights to not handle pork because of their religion when it interferes with the job duties? Can we start with those?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Specop 007

Well, lets see for a minute....How about keeping the practice of religion out of school?? Oh, thats a good start isnt it. How about not defending an individuals rights to not handle pork because of their religion when it interferes with the job duties? Can we start with those?
[/quote]

I guess you were referring to the Target employee thing in which Target... wait for it... decided to have the people do work other then cashier work. Insane I know. As far as keeping religion out of school, Christianity is a far larger offender then Islam when it comes to trying to wedge religion into school.

Anyways, this doesn't matter. You're talking about a threat so dire that it's going to destroy the western world and your solution is firing grocery store cashiers?
 

Socio

Golden Member
May 19, 2002
1,732
2
81
Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
Originally posted by: Socio
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Socio

You are wrong, they can not simultaneously exist in one entity; for example the democrats could not declare themselves a church with all the rights of a church because that would be direct conflict with separation of church and state and the democrats would either have to dissolve their party or their church!

What in the holy hell are you talking about?

This;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...on_of_church_and_state

Separation of church and state is a political and legal doctrine that government and religious institutions are to be kept separate and independent from each other.[1] The term most often refers to the combination of two principles: secularity of government and freedom of religious exercise.[2]

Islam has both government and religious institutions built into its belief structure which cannot be separated, thus Muslims have no choice but to reject secularism for it excludes the law of Allah.

Secularism cannot be a solution for countries with a Muslim majority or even a sizeable minority, for it requires them to replace their God-given beliefs with an entirely different set of man-made beliefs. Separation of religion and state is not an option for Muslims because it requires them to abandon Allah's decree for that of a man.

So what do you do?

The only logical recourse is to declare Islam not a religion before they reach majority or even a sizeable minority since it cannot exist in a secular society. This would neuter its ability to protect its political ideology with its religion and limit its power so that secularism can hopefully keep the upper hand.

Crusading against a whole religion is just too quixotic... changing all those minds is not going to accomplished by anything but another mass extinction, and an asteroid would take us down with them. Anyone who is trying to nudge the bulk of those millions into a way of looking at the world that "plays better with others" is doing a service. And people indulging in knee-jerk alarmist reactions, heartfelt as they may be, are not.

Islam as a philosophy is only as dangerous as its adherents' interpretation of it. Shift the interpretation, and you remove the danger. The same thing happened with Christianity, earlier. Anyone looking at what Ferdinand and Isabella set fire too when they kicked the last Muslims and Jews out of Spain, the 300 years of ongoing persecution and bloodletting and intolerance that was the Inquisition, would be excused for saying that Christianity is an evil, dangerous, bankrupt philosophy. Trust me, the torturers were able to find scriptural backup for what they were doing.

We got out of it. Muslims can, too.

The problem with that is adherence to its interpretation directly correlates to the Muslim population in relation to other populations. Take the US which has a 1% population, adherence to interpretation is relatively lax so one might be able to ?shift the interpretation?. However as the population grows so does adherence likely making that shift temporary at best.

Look places like Chad & Lebanon which have 50-60& population, adherence to interpretation is much stricter because they have to power to both implement and enforce it.

Then look at places like Iran & Saudi Arabia who have near 100% Muslim populations and it is basically followed to the letter.

Islam since the very beginning, has been a religion of expansionism, it must expand at any cost. In fact the underlying the idea of jihad is a unified Muslim community, the umma, which has the collective duty to expand Islam. So early on you could have success with shifting the interpretation but as the population grows, and it will grow as mandated by their religion, I fear that shift will be reset.

You know the more I read and learn the more I can see Islam is not by any stretch of the imagination a ?perfect? religion but the combination of its religion and political ideology is a ?perfect? tool for world domination.




 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Socio

The problem with that is adherence to its interpretation directly correlates to the Muslim population in relation to other populations. Take the US which has a 1% population, adherence to interpretation is relatively lax so one might be able to ?shift the interpretation?. However as the population grows so does adherence likely making that shift temporary at best.

Look places like Chad & Lebanon which have 50-60& population, adherence to interpretation is much stricter because they have to power to both implement and enforce it.

Then look at places like Iran & Saudi Arabia who have near 100% Muslim populations and it is basically followed to the letter.

Islam since the very beginning, has been a religion of expansionism, it must expand at any cost. In fact the underlying the idea of jihad is a unified Muslim community, the umma, which has the collective duty to expand Islam. So early on you could have success with shifting the interpretation but as the population grows, and it will grow as mandated by their religion, I fear that shift will be reset.

You know the more I read and learn the more I can see Islam is not by any stretch of the imagination a ?perfect? religion but the combination of its religion and political ideology is a ?perfect? tool for world domination.

Yeah man and look at places like turkey which is 99% Muslim. They follow the Sharia to the letter there!
 

Socio

Golden Member
May 19, 2002
1,732
2
81
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Socio

The problem with that is adherence to its interpretation directly correlates to the Muslim population in relation to other populations. Take the US which has a 1% population, adherence to interpretation is relatively lax so one might be able to ?shift the interpretation?. However as the population grows so does adherence likely making that shift temporary at best.

Look places like Chad & Lebanon which have 50-60& population, adherence to interpretation is much stricter because they have to power to both implement and enforce it.

Then look at places like Iran & Saudi Arabia who have near 100% Muslim populations and it is basically followed to the letter.

Islam since the very beginning, has been a religion of expansionism, it must expand at any cost. In fact the underlying the idea of jihad is a unified Muslim community, the umma, which has the collective duty to expand Islam. So early on you could have success with shifting the interpretation but as the population grows, and it will grow as mandated by their religion, I fear that shift will be reset.

You know the more I read and learn the more I can see Islam is not by any stretch of the imagination a ?perfect? religion but the combination of its religion and political ideology is a ?perfect? tool for world domination.

Yeah man and look at places like turkey which is 99% Muslim. They follow the Sharia to the letter there!

I will consede Turkey is the ?only? Muslim nation which is a ?true? democracy thus is the exception not the rule..

However not following Sharia Laws to the letter comes not through lack of trying;

Sharia law row: Turkey's ruling party fights for survival amid coup threat



 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Specop 007

Well, lets see for a minute....How about keeping the practice of religion out of school?? Oh, thats a good start isnt it. How about not defending an individuals rights to not handle pork because of their religion when it interferes with the job duties? Can we start with those?

I guess you were referring to the Target employee thing in which Target... wait for it... decided to have the people do work other then cashier work. Insane I know. As far as keeping religion out of school, Christianity is a far larger offender then Islam when it comes to trying to wedge religion into school.

Anyways, this doesn't matter. You're talking about a threat so dire that it's going to destroy the western world and your solution is firing grocery store cashiers?[/quote]

You justify these isolated incidents much like others do when we hear of some honor killing or gang rape as punishment etc etc.

Keep that head in the sand, you might be afraid of what you see if you pull your head out.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: eskimospy

I guess you were referring to the Target employee thing in which Target... wait for it... decided to have the people do work other then cashier work. Insane I know. As far as keeping religion out of school, Christianity is a far larger offender then Islam when it comes to trying to wedge religion into school.

Anyways, this doesn't matter. You're talking about a threat so dire that it's going to destroy the western world and your solution is firing grocery store cashiers?

You justify these isolated incidents much like others do when we hear of some honor killing or gang rape as punishment etc etc.

Keep that head in the sand, you might be afraid of what you see if you pull your head out.

You are now equating Target checkout practices with honor killing and gang rape. Think about this for a minute and maybe you'll figure out why you're crazy.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
More progress for the religion of peace

7/8/2008 (Pattani, Thailand) - A husband and wife team of laborers is shot, showered with gas and then burned by radical Muslims.
7/8/2008 (Karachi, Pakistan) - Religious hardliners set off a series of bombs, killing at least one person.
7/7/2008 (Quetta, Pakistan) - A Shia lawyer is shot to death by sectarian rivals.
7/7/2008 (Pattani, Thailand) - Islamists open fire on a bus full of Buddhist teenagers, killing two guards.
7/7/2008 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - Sunni hardliners bomb an Indian embassy, killing over forty people.
7/7/2008 (Baidoa, Somalia) - al-Shabab terrorists attack a government facility, killing two people.



Not bad for a two day run!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: blackangst1
More progress for the religion of peace

7/8/2008 (Pattani, Thailand) - A husband and wife team of laborers is shot, showered with gas and then burned by radical Muslims.
7/8/2008 (Karachi, Pakistan) - Religious hardliners set off a series of bombs, killing at least one person.
7/7/2008 (Quetta, Pakistan) - A Shia lawyer is shot to death by sectarian rivals.
7/7/2008 (Pattani, Thailand) - Islamists open fire on a bus full of Buddhist teenagers, killing two guards.
7/7/2008 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - Sunni hardliners bomb an Indian embassy, killing over forty people.
7/7/2008 (Baidoa, Somalia) - al-Shabab terrorists attack a government facility, killing two people.


Not bad for a two day run!

More progress for the other religion of peace (Christianity)

We can do this all day.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
More progress for the religion of peace

7/8/2008 (Pattani, Thailand) - A husband and wife team of laborers is shot, showered with gas and then burned by radical Muslims.
7/8/2008 (Karachi, Pakistan) - Religious hardliners set off a series of bombs, killing at least one person.
7/7/2008 (Quetta, Pakistan) - A Shia lawyer is shot to death by sectarian rivals.
7/7/2008 (Pattani, Thailand) - Islamists open fire on a bus full of Buddhist teenagers, killing two guards.
7/7/2008 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - Sunni hardliners bomb an Indian embassy, killing over forty people.
7/7/2008 (Baidoa, Somalia) - al-Shabab terrorists attack a government facility, killing two people.


Not bad for a two day run!

More progress for the other religion of peace (Christianity)

We can do this all day.

Where is Christianity mentioned?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
More progress for the religion of peace

7/8/2008 (Pattani, Thailand) - A husband and wife team of laborers is shot, showered with gas and then burned by radical Muslims.
7/8/2008 (Karachi, Pakistan) - Religious hardliners set off a series of bombs, killing at least one person.
7/7/2008 (Quetta, Pakistan) - A Shia lawyer is shot to death by sectarian rivals.
7/7/2008 (Pattani, Thailand) - Islamists open fire on a bus full of Buddhist teenagers, killing two guards.
7/7/2008 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - Sunni hardliners bomb an Indian embassy, killing over forty people.
7/7/2008 (Baidoa, Somalia) - al-Shabab terrorists attack a government facility, killing two people.


Not bad for a two day run!

More progress for the other religion of peace (Christianity)

We can do this all day.

Where is Christianity mentioned?

Democratic Republic of the Congo is about 98% Christian.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
More progress for the religion of peace

7/8/2008 (Pattani, Thailand) - A husband and wife team of laborers is shot, showered with gas and then burned by radical Muslims.
7/8/2008 (Karachi, Pakistan) - Religious hardliners set off a series of bombs, killing at least one person.
7/7/2008 (Quetta, Pakistan) - A Shia lawyer is shot to death by sectarian rivals.
7/7/2008 (Pattani, Thailand) - Islamists open fire on a bus full of Buddhist teenagers, killing two guards.
7/7/2008 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - Sunni hardliners bomb an Indian embassy, killing over forty people.
7/7/2008 (Baidoa, Somalia) - al-Shabab terrorists attack a government facility, killing two people.


Not bad for a two day run!

More progress for the other religion of peace (Christianity)

We can do this all day.

Where is Christianity mentioned?

Democratic Republic of the Congo is about 98% Christian.

Maybe this can clarify for you:

First War (1996 ? 1997)
Those who committed the 1994 genocide in Rwanda, both the Rwandan Armed Forces (RAF) and their militia allies, the Interahamwe, fled into Zaire (now DRC), with some 1 million refugees, and reestablished themselves in refugee camps. The new Rwandan government responded to RAF and Interahamwe attacks by joining forces with others under Congolese Laurent Kabila in 1996. This war ended with long-time leader Mobutu Sese Seko overthrown by Kabila.

Second War (1998 ? 2003)
After coming to power, Laurent Kabila expelled his Rwandan advisors and began aiding the génocidaires, who had been disrupted but not eliminated. Rwanda invaded again in 1998. Other nations quickly joined in. This war pitted Rwanda, Uganda, and Burundi against the government of DRC, which was supported by Zimbabwe, Angola, and Namibia. A bewildering array of local rebel groups and militias, some ethnically based and many sponsored by foreign militaries, also formed and took part in the conflict.

A key aim of almost all the combatants was control of eastern Congo's vast natural resources, which include diamonds, gold and coltan, a mineral used in cell phones and other electronic equipment. A UN Panel concluded in 2002 that "[c]riminal groups linked to the armies of Rwanda, Uganda and Zimbabwe and the Government of the Democratic Republic of the Congo ... have built up a self-financing war economy centered on mineral exploitation." Amnesty International reported that human rights abuses are tied to the systematic plunder: "economic interests have led to the emergence of a pattern of violence by all forces in the region that is aimed primarily at Congolese civilian communities and is predatory in character." The International Rescue Committee reported that by 2000, some 2.3 million civilians had died as a result of the conflict.

Transitional Period (2003 ? 2006)
An internationally sponsored peace process produced an accord signed in 1999 in Lusaka, Zambia. The focus of the Lusaka Accord and other diplomatic efforts was to get foreign forces out of Congo and establish an interim Congolese government that included representatives of the Congolese rebel groups in the east. In 2003, foreign forces officially withdrew and a Government of National Unity, a transitional government, was established in Kinshasa. But these steps did not substantially alleviate the crisis in the east. In fact, in 2003, the killing spiked upon withdrawal of the Ugandan forces. One reason that the withdrawal of foreign forces did not improve the situation was that Uganda and Rwanda, as well as the DRC government, continued to exercise control through the use of proxy militias. Additional armed groups, including forces composed of former génocidaires from Rwanda, also remained active.

Another element of the Lusaka Accords was a peacekeeping force authorized by the UN Security Council. Called MONUC after its French acronym, it began as an underequipped, undermanned, outgunned force. MONUC was buttressed by a French-led force in June 2003 and was soon given a more robust mandate with increased numbers of troops. However, it remains small in comparison to the tasks it faces and the area it covers, and has been accused of committing sexual abuses against civilians it should be protecting.

Violence against civilians continued throughout the transitional period, particularly in the east, where rape, attacks by armed forces, and the collapse of much of the country's health system and economic structures remained serious and constant threats to the population. On June 23, 2004, Luis Moreno Ocampo, the International Criminal Court prosecutor, announced that the Court's first-ever investigation would probe crimes committed throughout DRC. The investigation was triggered by a request from the Congolese transitional government.

Elections (2006)
The first in more than 40 years ? occurred on July 30, 2006. In advance of the elections, various political and armed groups jockeyed for power. While the political struggles were often played out in the capital of Kinshasa, in the war-torn eastern region the scramble for power produced violence, much of it ethnically based. Many actors, including individual Congolese leaders and the neighboring governments of Rwanda and Uganda, manipulated ethnic grievances and fear in eastern Congo to achieve political, military and economic advantage, contributing to regional insecurity and instability.

To prepare for elections, the size of the United Nations peacekeeping force, MONUC, was increased in September 2005 from around 14,000 troops to 17,500. An EU force of 2,000, spearheaded by the Germans, was also on hand to assist MONUC in responding to insecurity during the elections.

International observers deemed the elections free and fair despite calls of fraud by some opposition leaders and limited violence by opposition members attempting to keep some voters from the polls. More than 25 million Congolese -- 85 percent of those eligible -- came out to vote. Laurent Kabila's son Joseph, who first assumed power after his father's assassination in 2001, won the presidency.


-------------------------------------------------

"Your search for "christian" produced no results.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
No, that did nothing to clarify anything? Are you attempting to claim that the DRC is not 98% Christian? All I was pointing out was that by pointing to individual acts of violence you were attempting to attack Islam, which is a really weak argument. So, to show you the fallacy of your argument I just showed you a case of widespread rape and genocide conducted by Christians.

 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
No, that did nothing to clarify anything? Are you attempting to claim that the DRC is not 98% Christian? All I was pointing out was that by pointing to individual acts of violence you were attempting to attack Islam, which is a really weak argument. So, to show you the fallacy of your argument I just showed you a case of widespread rape and genocide conducted by Christians.

I am attacking Islam. We all have our opinions, right? My opinion is Islam is the most destructive fucked up religion on the planet. Their obvious goal of converting the world is fucked up also. I dont like how they treat women.

Sure Christianity has its own issues. but this thread is about Islam. The bullshit of "yeah but look at <inset a distraction here> is bullshit also. We're talking about Islam. If you want to talk about genocide and suicide bombings and attempts at forced conversion and killing others who dont believe in Christianity, start a damn thread. Otherwise support these atrocities or denounce them. Quit deflecting.
 

Vonkhan

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2003
8,198
0
71
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
No, that did nothing to clarify anything? Are you attempting to claim that the DRC is not 98% Christian? All I was pointing out was that by pointing to individual acts of violence you were attempting to attack Islam, which is a really weak argument. So, to show you the fallacy of your argument I just showed you a case of widespread rape and genocide conducted by Christians.

I am attacking Islam. We all have our opinions, right? My opinion is Islam is the most destructive fucked up religion on the planet. Their obvious goal of converting the world is fucked up also. I dont like how they treat women.

Sure Christianity has its own issues. but this thread is about Islam. The bullshit of "yeah but look at <inset a distraction here> is bullshit also. We're talking about Islam. If you want to talk about genocide and suicide bombings and attempts at forced conversion and killing others who dont believe in Christianity, start a damn thread. Otherwise support these atrocities or denounce them. Quit deflecting.

Christianity had it's turn - settle down grasshopper
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Vonkhan
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
No, that did nothing to clarify anything? Are you attempting to claim that the DRC is not 98% Christian? All I was pointing out was that by pointing to individual acts of violence you were attempting to attack Islam, which is a really weak argument. So, to show you the fallacy of your argument I just showed you a case of widespread rape and genocide conducted by Christians.

I am attacking Islam. We all have our opinions, right? My opinion is Islam is the most destructive fucked up religion on the planet. Their obvious goal of converting the world is fucked up also. I dont like how they treat women.

Sure Christianity has its own issues. but this thread is about Islam. The bullshit of "yeah but look at <inset a distraction here> is bullshit also. We're talking about Islam. If you want to talk about genocide and suicide bombings and attempts at forced conversion and killing others who dont believe in Christianity, start a damn thread. Otherwise support these atrocities or denounce them. Quit deflecting.

Christianity had it's turn - settle down grasshopper

I was replying to eskimo who was deflecting. Thanks though.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Vonkhan
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
No, that did nothing to clarify anything? Are you attempting to claim that the DRC is not 98% Christian? All I was pointing out was that by pointing to individual acts of violence you were attempting to attack Islam, which is a really weak argument. So, to show you the fallacy of your argument I just showed you a case of widespread rape and genocide conducted by Christians.

I am attacking Islam. We all have our opinions, right? My opinion is Islam is the most destructive fucked up religion on the planet. Their obvious goal of converting the world is fucked up also. I dont like how they treat women.

Sure Christianity has its own issues. but this thread is about Islam. The bullshit of "yeah but look at <inset a distraction here> is bullshit also. We're talking about Islam. If you want to talk about genocide and suicide bombings and attempts at forced conversion and killing others who dont believe in Christianity, start a damn thread. Otherwise support these atrocities or denounce them. Quit deflecting.

Christianity had it's turn - settle down grasshopper

I was replying to eskimo who was deflecting. Thanks though.

I wasn't deflecting anything. I assume you don't think Christianity is as devastating or fucked up as Islam, therefore I was showing you that isolated incidents prove absolutely nothing.

This wasn't an argument about Christianity or Islam, I was showing you why your evidence was crap.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Vonkhan
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
No, that did nothing to clarify anything? Are you attempting to claim that the DRC is not 98% Christian? All I was pointing out was that by pointing to individual acts of violence you were attempting to attack Islam, which is a really weak argument. So, to show you the fallacy of your argument I just showed you a case of widespread rape and genocide conducted by Christians.

I am attacking Islam. We all have our opinions, right? My opinion is Islam is the most destructive fucked up religion on the planet. Their obvious goal of converting the world is fucked up also. I dont like how they treat women.

Sure Christianity has its own issues. but this thread is about Islam. The bullshit of "yeah but look at <inset a distraction here> is bullshit also. We're talking about Islam. If you want to talk about genocide and suicide bombings and attempts at forced conversion and killing others who dont believe in Christianity, start a damn thread. Otherwise support these atrocities or denounce them. Quit deflecting.

Christianity had it's turn - settle down grasshopper

I was replying to eskimo who was deflecting. Thanks though.

I wasn't deflecting anything. I assume you don't think Christianity is as devastating or fucked up as Islam, therefore I was showing you that isolated incidents prove absolutely nothing.

This wasn't an argument about Christianity or Islam, I was showing you why your evidence was crap.

Its not. In a similar thread a year ago I listed, in detail, the history of attacks "in the name of Allah" vs attacks in the name of "God". Islam is not a religion that even tries to be peaceful. Do your own research and prove me wrong.

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years.



But whatever.