Music/Guitar Recording experts...need some help

[Fritzo]

I'm finally getting around to learning how to use my Tascam 8 track recorder, but I'm having trouble getting accurate sounds.

I'm using a condenser mic, and having a problem capturing mids. I've tried using EQ to compensate, but the signal is just not there. Right now I'm using a Shure SM57 clone miced to a 15w amp. Would there be a better mic choice?

Here's an example. I did all 3 guitar parts to this song, and added a premade bass/drum/vocal track.

Rock and Roll

This mic seems to capture acoustic guitar perfectly, but not so much electric. The main guitar riff sounds flat to me, and it's not the way it sounds coming out of the amp. Is there a better mic to use to capture mids?

EDIT:

OK, I took a lot of advice in here, and some other tips from some other sources, bought a REAL Shure SM57, and am getting much better results. It sounds half way listenable now:

Rock and Roll - Take 'leventy hundred.

Tips that helped:

-play cleaner with less gain/drive, more volume
-place mic away to the side of the speaker cone
-move the mic away so the sound can breathe a bit
-don't use a condenser mic to record guitar

 

[Jesusthewererabbit]

I've had spotty luck at best getting a good sound with real 57s, live and recording, with my rig. Do you have any kind of direct out on your amp? Even a headphone out would work. Do you use an effects chain? What kind of amp are you using? I hear a strange kind of distortion going on, almost like a flanger. Is that intentional? Have you tried different mic placements? Different rooms?

 

[Fritzo]

I've had spotty luck at best getting a good sound with real 57s, live and recording, with my rig. Do you have any kind of direct out on your amp? Even a headphone out would work. Do you use an effects chain? What kind of amp are you using? I hear a strange kind of distortion going on, almost like a flanger. Is that intentional? Have you tried different mic placements? Different rooms?

You're hearing a phaser, and the mic is saturating the signal with the phasing (which would cover the highs and lows-it's missing the mids). I could try to patch directly from my effects to the mixer and see if that helps.

 

[Chapbass]

Wait wait wait, are you using a condenser or an sm57? I'm confused...

You could always try a 57 real close up, off axis to the cone, with a LDC or SDC mic a little farther back, then blend the two.

Remember that with any micing, and especially guitar, the room matters a ton (as does mic pre-amps).


My suggestion might be to take your sm57 clone, you start playing a tune, have a buddy talk into the mic and say where hes placing it, then keep moving it around, say where hes placing it, move it again, again, again.

Find one that you like, and stick with it.

 

[Fritzo]

Wait wait wait, are you using a condenser or an sm57? I'm confused...

You could always try a 57 real close up, off axis to the cone, with a LDC or SDC mic a little farther back, then blend the two.

Remember that with any micing, and especially guitar, the room matters a ton (as does mic pre-amps).


My suggestion might be to take your sm57 clone, you start playing a tune, have a buddy talk into the mic and say where hes placing it, then keep moving it around, say where hes placing it, move it again, again, again.

Find one that you like, and stick with it.

Sorry, I was late and I misworded that. I tried a condenser AND an SM57 clone. The recording above was made with the condenser.

I actually tried the line out direct to the mixer and got better results.

 

[Platypus]

How are you placing your mics? How are you mixing your tracks? Panning?
What kind of condenser? (large/small diaphram)

I would use only the SM57 and find a good tone before you start adding other mics to the mix. The SM57 sounds much better off-axis and right up against the grill cloth. I turn mine slightly to the left, others use to the right. Your ideal placement will depend wildly on the tone you are looking for but I always go off center from the cone as well.

See this pic:
http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/105/l_17b94627efc54190919f04ea07ebf841.jpg

See how it's not lined up perpendicular to the cone? It's off axis from it.

Once you have the SM57 placed right, add your condenser further back to grab some room noise. If you're not going to take two takes of your playing, double your track and pan one to the left and the other to the right. The way I record my tracks is SM57 double tracked and then I use a LDC further back from the source and put it in the center and mix it lower in the mix. It adds some room depth and warmth without overshadowing the dynamic mic.

 

[whattaguy]

All of these suggestions are good. Try different mic positions until find what you like. Also, try rolling back the distortion a little bit, and layer the guitar parts. Too much distortion can muddy up a mix sometimes. You can also try putting the condenser mic behind the guitar cabinet with the 57 on the grill.

Just a few "other" suggestions on top of all the other good info.

 

[Platypus]

Another thing I just thought of re-reading your post. What kind of mic preamp are you using? That can affect the quality heavily if you have a shitty preamp.

 

[Fritzo]

Another thing I just thought of re-reading your post. What kind of mic preamp are you using? That can affect the quality heavily if you have a shitty preamp.

The Tascam has phantom power built in, so I'm not using one.

 

[Platypus]

The Tascam has phantom power built in, so I'm not using one.

Phantom power would be for your condenser as the SM57 doesn't require it. It wont hurt it to have it on but it's not using it.

I'm not familiar with the product but a good mic preamp makes all the difference in the world.

 

[gaidensensei]

Phantom power would be for your condenser as the SM57 doesn't require it. It wont hurt it to have it on but it's not using it.

I'm not familiar with the product but a good mic preamp makes all the difference in the world.

What he said. You might also want to look into vacuum tube based amp/preamps instead of transistors, the sound quality can be discerned easily and distortions seem to go away.

 

[Fritzo]

This is the mixer I'm using BTW-

http://www.tascam.com/products/dp-02cf.html

It's kind of fun

 

[misle]

I'm at work and can't listen to your sample, but in general:

To start, I'd recommend taking your 57 and putting it directly against the grill cloth right where the diaphragm and cone meet. Now, this is important for getting a good, in your face sound: TURN IT UP!

What amp are you using?

This guy gives a lot of good info

Edit: Also, here's the last band I recorded.

 

[Jesusthewererabbit]

I'm still curious to know what your rig and effects chain contains.

 

[Fritzo]

I'm still curious to know what your rig and effects chain contains.

plugged into

, which is plugged into

which goes into

and that goes to:

 

[Jesusthewererabbit]

It's been my experience, and others may have different ones, that miking small solid state amps has never worked out well. Really, miking large solid state amps has never really worked for me either. How much better was it going direct? Can you really crank it or live in an apartment?

 

[Platypus]

It's been my experience, and others may have different ones, that miking small solid state amps has never worked out well. Really, miking large solid state amps has never really worked for me either. How much better was it going direct? Can you really crank it or live in an apartment?

same here, I thought you got that tone from the OP out of a tube amp using an sm57 and was really surprised.

 

[NL5]

A lot of good advice in here already, but I'll throw out my two cents.

1. Stick with one mic to start. A dynamic or a ribbon preferably.

2. Stick it up close, and towards the outside edge of the speaker - not at the dust cone.

3. Turn your gain down at least 1/4 of the way from where you get a good tone in the room.

4. Sometimes, with a less-than-stellar amp, direct can be better. Heck, here is a little demo I did of my band, and one of the guitars is straight off a tube screamer pedal - can you tell which one? http://www.lightningmp3.com/upload/tellyouEP.mp3

5. Relax. Read. Learn. It's not rocket surgery.

 

[AlienCraft]

How are you placing your mics? How are you mixing your tracks? Panning?
What kind of condenser? (large/small diaphram)

I would use only the SM57 and find a good tone before you start adding other mics to the mix. The SM57 sounds much better off-axis and right up against the grill cloth. I turn mine slightly to the left, others use to the right. Your ideal placement will depend wildly on the tone you are looking for but I always go off center from the cone as well.

See this pic:
http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/105/l_17b94627efc54190919f04ea07ebf841.jpg

See how it's not lined up perpendicular to the cone? It's off axis from it.

Once you have the SM57 placed right, add your condenser further back to grab some room noise. If you're not going to take two takes of your playing, double your track and pan one to the left and the other to the right. The way I record my tracks is SM57 double tracked and then I use a LDC further back from the source and put it in the center and mix it lower in the mix. It adds some room depth and warmth without overshadowing the dynamic mic.

What he said.
Also, Condensers are always better with large diaphragms,IMO. The only small dia. ones that I've ever found that didn't just distort into mush and die from the spl were Sony ECM-22/23's.
The Nirvana guy used another large Dia. condenser in the rooms furthest corner, facing obliquely to the source and run through a compressor , just slamming it at 6 to 8 db of comp. at all times at about 5:1.
Saw that when I did a Rancid session a long time ago....

 

[AlienCraft]

It's been my experience, and others may have different ones, that miking small solid state amps has never worked out well. Really, miking large solid state amps has never really worked for me either. How much better was it going direct? Can you really crank it or live in an apartment?

Solid State amps can sound good, but it's a crap shoot if you're goiing for that "soft distortion" tubes can give when they warm up and the input gets a little ragged.
Neal Schon used to like the sound of his pedal board through a pair of modified V-72 mic pres as direct boxes. Worked well for writing and quick tracks.
It has been my experience that the older versions of Vox and other imports are usually ok, but it depends on if they've been repaired in the past.
The new generation of "virtual" systems sound pretty good to me, but my ears haven't stopped ringing since 2003 and the last tour I did.
< likes old tube amps as long as he doesn't have to carry or load them anymore.

 

[Fritzo]

Solid State amps can sound good, but it's a crap shoot if you're goiing for that "soft distortion" tubes can give when they warm up and the input gets a little ragged.
Neal Schon used to like the sound of his pedal board through a pair of modified V-72 mic pres as direct boxes. Worked well for writing and quick tracks.
It has been my experience that the older versions of Vox and other imports are usually ok, but it depends on if they've been repaired in the past.
The new generation of "virtual" systems sound pretty good to me, but my ears haven't stopped ringing since 2003 and the last tour I did.
< likes old tube amps as long as he doesn't have to carry or load them anymore.

Yeah, that Tascam amp I have right now is actually supposed to be a "recording/practice amp", and it actually doesn't sound half bad. I'm doing some of the suggestions above right now. I'll post my results later.

 

[thomsbrain]

Is that amp open-backed, or close-backed? If it is open-backed, a lot of what you're hearing when you stand in the room and play may be coming from the back of the amp rather than the front... and therefore micing the front won't pick it all up.

The SM57 isn't my favorite mic for my own rig, but it's not a BAD mic, and it's been used on plenty of pro recordings with good results (good snare drum mic, too). It helps if you have three people to find the best placement, one to play, one to move the mic, and one to listen to the resulting sound. Otherwise you just do trial and error.

For starters, aim the 57 at the cone part of the speaker, which is the "flat" paper part that surrounds the middle bulge, head-on the to paper. That will make the mic look like it is at an angle relative to the speaker grill. Experiment with how close you put it to the center or edge of the speaker and how far away you place it. If the amp sounds good in the room, you may get better results pulling the mic farther away from the speaker. Lots of amps sound like crap when you put your ear right down by the speaker and only sound good when the sound has bounced around the room a bit.

 

[Fritzo]

OK, I think I know what the problem is. It's not the mic, it's the fuzz pedal. I use a Yardbox, which is a modded clone of a Sola Tonebender. According to other musicians, it is great for live playing, but it tracks HORRIBLY.

I used a tube drive on my M13 for the main riff and left the "fills" on my Yardbox and it's recording better now (posted in the OP). The fuzz was saturating the signal.

Now I just have to smooth my playing out and fix the mistakes heheh. That backing track I have is about 10 bpm too fast!

 

[NL5]

OK, I think I know what the problem is. It's not the mic, it's the fuzz pedal. I use a Yardbox, which is a modded clone of a Sola Tonebender. According to other musicians, it is great for live playing, but it tracks HORRIBLY.

I used a tube drive on my M13 for the main riff and left the "fills" on my Yardbox and it's recording better now (posted in the OP). The fuzz was saturating the signal.

Now I just have to smooth my playing out and fix the mistakes heheh. That backing track I have is about 10 bpm too fast!

Yeah, a little fuzz goes a long way when recording - no matter the pedal.

The second clip is definitely an improvement, but you should be able to clean it up quite a bit more. It still has a pretty "hollow" sound to it.

If you're really looking to improve your recorded sound, a good place to start for information is http://homerecording.com/bbs/index.php? - a lot of very knowledgeable people over there, most working with very little recording equipment.

 

[Fritzo]

Yeah, a little fuzz goes a long way when recording - no matter the pedal.

The second clip is definitely an improvement, but you should be able to clean it up quite a bit more. It still has a pretty "hollow" sound to it.

If you're really looking to improve your recorded sound, a good place to start for information is http://homerecording.com/bbs/index.php? - a lot of very knowledgeable people over there, most working with very little recording equipment.

Thanks for the link. I agree with the hollow sound. Still working on it, I'll keep trying until I get it right