"Mumia" dodges the death penalty

[Don Vito Corleone]

Correct. If you're capable of carrying out the crime then you're capable to being held responsible for it. As long as we have trials that actually stick to the FACTS of the case then there's no reason they shouldn't be swift.

Do you have an age limit? Should a 16-year-old get the automatic death penalty? What about an 8-year-old, like this kid: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/02/19/20090219stjohns0219ONL.html ?

 

[ichy]

If the crime was heinous enough then the 16-year old should absolutely get the death penalty. The case of the 8-year old is more complicated, but those kinds of cases generally aren't tried in adult courts anyways.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

If the crime was heinous enough then the 16-year old should absolutely get the death penalty. The case of the 8-year old is more complicated, but those kinds of cases generally aren't tried in adult courts anyways.

Why exactly do you believe the death penalty should be mandatory in murder cases? Do you believe it makes society safer (which is demonstrably untrue), or does it flow from some kind of religious sense of justice or what? What you're proposing sounds like something out of the dark ages. Also you really haven't addressed the risk of convicting an innocent person.

 

[Lemon law]

It looks like our OP omitted the fact that there is considerable doubt about the Minia's guilt or innocence.

If we want more facts and less bias, this wiki link may shed some light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal

The other thing to point out at the time, was the Philly police were a hot bed of racism
and corruption. And busting people for the crime of driving while black were common.

But oddly enough, the dead police officer, comes out vindicated in the link. As there is good evidence that he was shot and killed in a basic mob hit for fighting graft and corruption in the police department. Can't have that stuff, because one good apple can spoil a whole barrel of rotten ones.

 

[ichy]

No, there isn't considerable doubt. Only his idiot Black Panther supporters say that he's innocent. The evidence against him is overwhelming.

 

[woolfe9999]

LL I can't belief you actually thoroughly read your own wiki link, which BTW I think is a pretty balanced summary of the case, and concluded that there's any doubt. There were 4 eyewitnesses to the crime, and 2 who heard him confess in the hospital. Ballastics analysis revealed that his gun was the one used in the crime.

His counter-evidence was people who came forward later, after a conviction, and after he had been made into a local celebrity, and their stories were clearly not credible. Some were quite obviously absurd. Most importantly, the stories, taken together, don't form a coherent alternative narrative. It's a mishmash of bullshit meant to create the appearance of doubt.

The championing of this man is an utter disgrace.

- wolf

 

[ichy]

Also, he claims he was framed as part of some conspiracy. The problem is that why the hell would anyone want to frame him? He was some loser cab driver before he murdered Daniel Faulkner. Being a cop-killer is pretty much the only noteworthy thing he's ever done! You don't create elaborate conspiracies to frame people who are of zero significance.

 

[Lemon law]

Did you read the link woolfe, as you said, "and 2 who heard him confess in the hospital."

As very credible doctors said he was in no shape to do any talking at the time.

As for ichy who says, "He was some loser cab driver before he murdered Daniel Faulkner. Being a cop-killer is pretty much the only noteworthy thing he's ever done!"

As the link says he was a highly respected community activist and radio personality even by that time. And had left the Black Panther party long ago. And now he is a even more influential today.

As for me, I will reserve judgment as the wiki link casts some doubt on his certain guilt.
As I have not done enough research to learn more.

But we have to still ask, what social benefit will be gained by executing him now?

 

[Wreckem]

Its oh so funny that you cite an example from 110 years ago and say we had the same constitution then as we do now and the justice system should act the same way.

Let me just skewer that statement and move on to other things.

120 years ago the US Constitution was NOT INCORPORATED to the states. Do you know what that means? The constitution ONLY APPLIED to the Federal Government, not the states.

Also, lets just say police work in most of the 1900s and before relied on nothing more than hunches and disproven methods.

There is no doubt one or more person were executed while being innocent prior the the Supreme Court banning the death penalty. I'd say the odds are strong that one or more innocent has been executed since reinstatement as well.

 

[werepossum]

It looks like our OP omitted the fact that there is considerable doubt about the Minia's guilt or innocence.

If we want more facts and less bias, this wiki link may shed some light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal

The other thing to point out at the time, was the Philly police were a hot bed of racism
and corruption. And busting people for the crime of driving while black were common.

But oddly enough, the dead police officer, comes out vindicated in the link. As there is good evidence that he was shot and killed in a basic mob hit for fighting graft and corruption in the police department. Can't have that stuff, because one good apple can spoil a whole barrel of rotten ones.

Dude, don't be a total idiot. Assuming he is not guilty requires believing that as he ran over to the policeman rousting his brother, someone else (whom no one else could see because apparently he was invisible) took Mumia's revolver from his cab, then walked over and shot the cop. The cop then turned around and shot not the invisible man firing the revolver at him, but by an inexplicable coincidence the man who owned the gun, apparently for no reason other than he was black. The invisible man then executed the cop, dropped the revolver, and strolled off whilst Mumia lay there bleeding. That's far beyond the mysterious dude defense. That's even arguably beyond the mysterious alien defense.

If we are to believe that Mumia is not guilty, then we cannot credibly have a justice system at all. We should just heavily arm everyone and issue warnings about invisible aliens.

Also, he had once been a somewhat credible community activist and radio personality. By the time he murdered the cop, he had been fired for, among other things, advocating murdering white people in general and cops in particular.

 

[RampantAndroid]

What do you say to the fact that several people on death row have been completely exonerated since the advent of DNA evidence? These people would all be dead if their cases had been handled like Czolgosz's.

I'm for the death penalty, but I'm also for some amount of reform to our legal system. Death when the evidence is sketchy hardly seems fair. When there is DNA evidence and no doubt to the guilt, it seems far more agreeable to sentence one to death. Thankfully Texas held on to a lot of its DNA evidence, but "the Fugitive" should be an exercise in the court's ruling not always being the RIGHT one.

I guess I'm saying this: If there's irrefutable evidence showing guilt of first degree murder...death seems quite reasonable. When it's more questionable, and the evidence isn't concrete, it becomes less reasonable.

What I would say is this - if we want to go with more life sentences, we need to also make prison life less of a luxury. No more TV for example.

 

[woolfe9999]

Dude, don't be a total idiot. Assuming he is not guilty requires believing that as he ran over to the policeman rousting his brother, someone else (whom no one else could see because apparently he was invisible) took Mumia's revolver from his cab, then walked over and shot the cop. The cop then turned around and shot not the invisible man firing the revolver at him, but by an inexplicable coincidence the man who owned the gun, apparently for no reason other than he was black. The invisible man then executed the cop, dropped the revolver, and strolled off whilst Mumia lay there bleeding. That's far beyond the mysterious dude defense. That's even arguably beyond the mysterious alien defense.

Yep you nailed it. The ballistics match to his gun is decisive here.

 

[CitizenKain]

If we were to make the DP mandatory then its application should be even more restrictive. I'd say save it for prisoners who kill while incarcerated, cop-killers, anyone who murders a witness, judge or prosecutor, someone who kills multiple people or killers who rape or torture their victims.

Why are cops so goddamn special?
If you want a police state so bad, you should move to one instead of hoping America turns into one, its bad enough already.

 

[Lemon law]

Dude, don't be a total idiot. Assuming he is not guilty requires believing that as he ran over to the policeman rousting his brother, someone else (whom no one else could see because apparently he was invisible) took Mumia's revolver from his cab, then walked over and shot the cop. The cop then turned around and shot not the invisible man firing the revolver at him, but by an inexplicable coincidence the man who owned the gun, apparently for no reason other than he was black. The invisible man then executed the cop, dropped the revolver, and strolled off whilst Mumia lay there bleeding. That's far beyond the mysterious dude defense. That's even arguably beyond the mysterious alien defense.

If we are to believe that Mumia is not guilty, then we cannot credibly have a justice system at all. We should just heavily arm everyone and issue warnings about invisible aliens.

Also, he had once been a somewhat credible community activist and radio personality. By the time he murdered the cop, he had been fired for, among other things, advocating murdering white people in general and cops in particular.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not that simply if we buy the mob hit man theory. Mob hit man follows cop, waits for cop to exit vehicle to make a traffic arrest. Mob hit man shoots cop when he exits vehicle with some untraceable Saturday night special weapon. And then gets two extra bonus point's.

(1) Sees Mumia running forward to investigate from across the street. (2) Badly wounded
but not yet dead cop see Mumia running towards him, assumes its Mumia that shot him, and then before dying, he wounds Mumia who then slumps to the curb. Then its just the work of another few seconds for the hit man to plant the saturday night special on Mumia and then complete his escape. As for Mumia having a gun and shoulder holster, in Philly every self respecting cabbie probably did the same.

Did the Philly police do even the most basic police work that could rule Mumia in or out. Because its possible to do a paraffin test to see if someone fired a revolver or not. Plus anyone who knows anything about pistols knows it very hard to hit even a cop sized target on the run from quite a distance unless they have extensive training and experience.

Just playing devils advocate here, but the story would all hang together. But its the unperformed paraffin test that would have been definitive.

 

[Throckmorton]

I still don't get how killing a non-cop is less bad than killing a cop.

 

[RampantAndroid]

I still don't get how killing a non-cop is less bad than killing a cop.

It isn't. It's murder, period.

 

[ichy]

Why are cops so goddamn special?
If you want a police state so bad, you should move to one instead of hoping America turns into one, its bad enough already.

They aren't special as individuals, just like how people who testify as witnesses in trials aren't special themselves. Killing police officers or witnesses (or judges or prosecutors or prison guards) is a crime against more than an individual though, it's an assault on the entire legal system.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm for the death penalty, but I'm also for some amount of reform to our legal system. Death when the evidence is sketchy hardly seems fair. When there is DNA evidence and no doubt to the guilt, it seems far more agreeable to sentence one to death. Thankfully Texas held on to a lot of its DNA evidence, but "the Fugitive" should be an exercise in the court's ruling not always being the RIGHT one.

I guess I'm saying this: If there's irrefutable evidence showing guilt of first degree murder...death seems quite reasonable. When it's more questionable, and the evidence isn't concrete, it becomes less reasonable.

What I would say is this - if we want to go with more life sentences, we need to also make prison life less of a luxury. No more TV for example.

While I oppose the death penalty, your opinion seems pretty moderate on the whole issue. I have one thing to say though, life in prison is not a luxury.

 

[werepossum]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not that simply if we buy the mob hit man theory. Mob hit man follows cop, waits for cop to exit vehicle to make a traffic arrest. Mob hit man shoots cop when he exits vehicle with some untraceable Saturday night special weapon. And then gets two extra bonus point's.

(1) Sees Mumia running forward to investigate from across the street. (2) Badly wounded
but not yet dead cop see Mumia running towards him, assumes its Mumia that shot him, and then before dying, he wounds Mumia who then slumps to the curb. Then its just the work of another few seconds for the hit man to plant the saturday night special on Mumia and then complete his escape. As for Mumia having a gun and shoulder holster, in Philly every self respecting cabbie probably did the same.

Did the Philly police do even the most basic police work that could rule Mumia in or out. Because its possible to do a paraffin test to see if someone fired a revolver or not. Plus anyone who knows anything about pistols knows it very hard to hit even a cop sized target on the run from quite a distance unless they have extensive training and experience.

Just playing devils advocate here, but the story would all hang together. But its the unperformed paraffin test that would have been definitive.

Again, the revolver was purchased by and registered to Mumia. The final shot was at point blank range, standing above the wounded cop. The "hit man" would have to be invisible, since no one saw an extra man. And why would the police frame a black man rather than hunt a cop killer? Was Faulkner the only honest, non-racist cop in the whole city? Was every other cop in the city in on this conspiracy?

Again, don't be a complete idiot. You'd have a better chance getting sane people to believe an alien or demon shot him.

 

[glenn1]

Again, the revolver was purchased by and registered to Mumia. The final shot was at point blank range, standing above the wounded cop. The "hit man" would have to be invisible, since no one saw an extra man. And why would the police frame a black man rather than hunt a cop killer? Was Faulkner the only honest, non-racist cop in the whole city? Was every other cop in the city in on this conspiracy?

Again, don't be a complete idiot. You'd have a better chance getting sane people to believe an alien or demon shot him.

Agreed, bullshit like this from duplicitous people like the person who posted it make me even more intent to see the penalty carried out, not less. It's creating even less reasonable doubt than I might have known previously.

 

[fskimospy]

Agreed, bullshit like this from duplicitous people like the person who posted it make me even more intent to see the penalty carried out, not less. It's creating even less reasonable doubt than I might have known previously.

Wait, so someone else acting shitty makes you want to execute this guy more?

 

[ichy]

Now it's officially over. The Philadelphia DA won't pursue another sentencing hearing, which means that Mumia will get a life sentence.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/07/justice/pennsylvania-abu-jamal-death-penalty/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Sucks for Maureen Faulkner, I can't imagine being jerked around like that for 29 years.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I posted this on Gawker, whose headline was "Inescapable 'Free Mumia' Signs Finally Do Something Good":

They may have done something, but I'm not sure they did anything good. I am not an advocate of the death penalty, so I'm fine with it being taken off the table for Mr. Abu-Jamal, but the evidence of his guilt is overwhelming, and to me the problem with the whole "Free Mumia" movement is that it's unfairly shifted blame onto the victim, who based on all credible evidence was just a police officer doing his job when Mr. Abu-Jamal blew him away. Mr. Abu-Jamal is an unapologetic cop killer and does not deserve to have a gazillion naive hippies waving signs calling for his release.

 

[Infohawk]

LL I can't belief you actually thoroughly read your own wiki link, which BTW I think is a pretty balanced summary of the case, and concluded that there's any doubt. There were 4 eyewitnesses to the crime, and 2 who heard him confess in the hospital. Ballastics analysis revealed that his gun was the one used in the crime.

His counter-evidence was people who came forward later, after a conviction, and after he had been made into a local celebrity, and their stories were clearly not credible. Some were quite obviously absurd. Most importantly, the stories, taken together, don't form a coherent alternative narrative. It's a mishmash of bullshit meant to create the appearance of doubt.

The championing of this man is an utter disgrace.

- wolf

I posted this on Gawker, whose headline was "Inescapable 'Free Mumia' Signs Finally Do Something Good":

So if it's so straightforward, where did the doubt from the left originate?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

So if it's so straightforward, where did the doubt from the left originate?

His trial occurred in the midst of terrible race relations in Philadelphia, similar to and probably worse than those in LA at the time of Rodney King and the resulting riots. (A political climate which, in my view, played a huge role in the acquittal of O.J. Simpson.) Police were viewed with great skepticism in the black community, as well as by politically liberal young people. Abu-Jamal was a handsome former Black Panther and active political journalist who was loved and respected in his community and perceived as a gentle spirit (although he carried a pistol in shoulder holster). The policeman he shot was white. At trial he was completely disruptive and disrespectful, claiming the court lacked authority over him and that he could never get a just trial because the white man wouldn't treat him fairly. All of this set up a perfect storm for liberal activists to treat him as some kind of political prisoner. This dynamic became more pronounced after he wrote a couple of books from death row, as well as an article for the Yale Law Journal. Many anti-death penalty voices embraced him simply because he was a bright and articulate anti-DP advocate who was actually on death row.

Three eyewitnesses described seeing Abu-Jamal shoot the officer, and another described his hospital confession. The bullets pulled from the dead police officer were ballistic matches to the pistol carried by Abu-Jamal. Neither Abu-Jamal himself, nor his own brother, who was present for the shooting, testified in his defense (a fact that speaks volumes to me about his guilt). I have very little doubt about his guilt, and to the extent I have any, it's because I was not involved in working on the case, nor did I see the shooting.