MSNBC: "Economists say odds of recession are rising"

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
We've been infusing the economy with money individuals don't have, should this come as any surprise? The pendulum is swinging back, how far though? :(

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22476544/
After six years of uninterrupted growth, the outlook for the U.S. economy in 2008 has darkened considerably in just the past month. While many economists say it?s too soon to know whether a recession is coming, forecasters say the latest economic figures don?t look promising.

?Obviously, the recession risk is rising sharply,? said David Wyss, chief economist at Standard & Poors. ?We're getting to near even odds for recession in the first half of the year.?

Given the rapid pace of slowing since the sizzling 4.9 percent annual growth rate logged in last year?s third quarter, there is some speculation that the economy may already be slipping into a period of negative growth. Given the lag in the collection and analysis of economic data, it?s not unusual for a recession to be underway before statistics confirm it.

?If there?s going to be a recession, it?s entirely possible that we are in it ? or just beginning it now,? said Nigel Gault, an economist at Global Insight. ?We won?t know for a while. In two or three months, looking back from there to the December, January, February numbers, I think it will be evident by then whether or not we?ve entered a recession.?

Rising foreclosures and falling home prices have also put something of a damper on consumers, many who have funded a large portion of their spending in recent years with gains on the value of their homes. Coupled with the recent resurgence in energy prices, many consumers are feeling squeezed; any resulting slowdown in spending could also present the economy with a substantial headwind.

The latest bad news came Wednesday with a monthly report on U.S. manufacturing activity from a private research group; the numbers showed a surprise slowdown to the lowest level in almost five years. Though it takes more than a single month?s data to confirm a trend, the report from the Institute of Supply Management suggests that the economy may be in worse shape than many economists had believed.

The report follows more bad news from the housing market ? which continues to collapse after a prolonged boom that came to an abrupt close last year after years of easy-money lending left lenders coping with big losses and millions of borrowers facing foreclosure.

New home sales in November ? the latest data available ? sank to their lowest level in more than 12 years. After months of declining sales and rising inventories of unsold homes, the drop was worse than most analysts had expected.

?At the moment housing activity is just plunging, and it is a huge drag every quarter on growth,? said Gault.

Forecasters who see the glass half full are hoping that the sharp drop in new home starts is actually a good sign because it reduces the inventory of unsold homes. Eliminating that backlog is a key ingredient to any recovery in the housing market. And the sooner that recovery comes, the sooner the overall economy can regain strength.

A pickup in exports by U.S. companies ? due in large part to the weakness in the dollar - has also provided an important buffer to the economic damage done by the turmoil in the housing and lending markets. A weaker dollar makes U.S. goods more competitive when sold in overseas markets: it?s the equivalent of putting all U.S. goods on sale for foreigners.

?While there is plenty to be negative about with respect to housing, credit and the consumer, at the same time we believe we are in the early stages of a manufacturing renaissance,? Merrill Lynch economist David Rosenberg wrote in a note to clients Wednesday.

But, as Wednesday's ISM data indicated, it?s not clear that that surge in exports will continue. A lot depends on how well the economies of major U.S. trading partners hold up this year. If growth abroad remains strong, continued demand for Made in America products could offset the meltdown of the housing market and help the U.S. economy get through the current weakness without heading into reverse. If the housing market remains weak, consumers tighten their belts and the export sector falters, there would be little left to head off recession.
Story continues below ?advertisement

The freshest read on the economy?s strength comes Friday with the release of employment numbers for December. After posting gains of 94,000 new jobs in November ? the slowest pace since September ? the consensus among forecasters is for job growth of just 70,000 last month. They also see the unemployment rate ticking up to 4.8 percent from 4.7 percent in November.

The question of whether the economy dodges a recession won?t be answered until several trends become clearer ? starting with signs of life in the housing market. Another key ingredient is the impact of recent moves by the Federal Reserve to lower interest rates as it tries to clear the sand out of the gears of the global credit markets. After all but shutting down in August, the debt markets perked up in the fall ? only to slow again in December. Multi-billion-dollar losses posted by major banks and investment houses have spooked lenders and investors and tightened credit ? even as the Fed is trying ease.

The Fed?s latest rate-cutting moves ? and its promise to pump billions of dollars into the global credit markets ? are designed to ease those lending fears and get the financial markets back on an even keel. But in minutes of the Fed's Dec. 11 meeting released Wednesday, policy makers acknowledged the trouble it faces in setting the right course.

?Although members agreed that the stance of policy should be eased, they also recognized that the situation was quite fluid and the economic outlook unusually uncertain,? the minutes said.

Higher oil prices could also limit the Fed?s rate-cutting options if higher energy prices begin to work their way into the cost of other goods and services and stoke inflation above current levels. The antidote for an outbreak of inflation is usually to raise ? not lower ? rates.

That could force the Fed to choose between raising rates to contain inflation and lowering them to promoting growth ? a choice made more difficult by the political pressures of the presidential campaign season.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
4,197
101
106
Good. I'm shopping for a refinance on my house, and I need bond prices to go up.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
If the media keeps screaming about a recession, even when our economy is the strongest, fastest growing and most employed in the history of earth, people will eventually start making financial decisions based on the media hype, and this will drive a recession.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
If the media keeps screaming about a recession, even when our economy is the strongest, fastest growing and most employed in the history of earth, people will eventually start making financial decisions based on the media hype, and this will drive a recession.

When consumers become tapped out with debt is when the economy will go into recession. It has almost nothing to do with the media.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
9
0
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
If the media keeps screaming about a recession, even when our economy is the strongest, fastest growing and most employed in the history of earth, people will eventually start making financial decisions based on the media hype, and this will drive a recession.

Yea its the liberal medias fault that oil is bouncing near $100, hosing market is in the tank, dollar has dropped like a rock, etc... :roll:

Thank god i have faux news to tell me things are great... when republicans are in power.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
"Fault" (if such must be applied) lies with the averge American's desire to hawk his future to pay for the excesses of his present. That doesn't have anything to do with partisan politics, except that politicians of both the major parties are always trying to convince the people that they can get more for less.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
Originally posted by: Vic
"Fault" (if such must be applied) lies with the averge American's desire to hawk his future to pay for the excesses of his present. That doesn't have anything to do with partisan politics, except that politicians of both the major parties are always trying to convince the people that they can get more for less.
:thumbsup:

I'm so sick of people always looking for anything else to blame other then todays typical American who will actually put GROCERIES on credit cards because they are living so far in check-to-check land or beyond. I am amazed at the poor choices the people in this country make with their money.

One of the most typical bonehead moves I see a lot of people making today is buying a brand new car with their first real job... as opposed to a house or any other appriciating investment. Instead they buy one of the all time champions of plummetting value.

People congrats on getting a new job.. but guess what, the days of your uncle working at the factory for 47 years is OVER. And don't get an ARM thinking you will have a higher paying job by the time it adjusts either.. infact when I make my purchases I say, how much can I afford if I lost my job and had to do temp work even to make the bills.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
"Fault" (if such must be applied) lies with the average American's desire to hawk his future to pay for the excesses of his present. That doesn't have anything to do with partisan politics, except that politicians of both the major parties are always trying to convince the people that they can get more for less.

I agree. But some companies sure do make it easy to rack up debt you can't afford. For instance the zero down mortgage that has been decently popular over the past few years. They're completely illegal but they do it off the books so it's hard to pin down.

Edit: I recall reading of a scheme in Freakonomics that I think he said was illegal where the realtor would give them the required down payment for the house but up the sale price for the house by the amount given.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: Vic
"Fault" (if such must be applied) lies with the average American's desire to hawk his future to pay for the excesses of his present. That doesn't have anything to do with partisan politics, except that politicians of both the major parties are always trying to convince the people that they can get more for less.

I agree. But some companies sure do make it easy to rack up debt you can't afford. For instance the zero down mortgage that has been decently popular over the past few years. They're completely illegal but they do it off the books so it's hard to pin down.

:confused: No, they're not.

Anyway, except for the VA and some FHA programs, they've mostly gone away with the mortgage implosion.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
If the media keeps screaming about a recession, even when our economy is the strongest, fastest growing and most employed in the history of earth, people will eventually start making financial decisions based on the media hype, and this will drive a recession.

Are you accounting for debt in your 'strong economy'? Are you accounting for gains being broadly distributed in your 'strong economy'?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: Vic
"Fault" (if such must be applied) lies with the average American's desire to hawk his future to pay for the excesses of his present. That doesn't have anything to do with partisan politics, except that politicians of both the major parties are always trying to convince the people that they can get more for less.

I agree. But some companies sure do make it easy to rack up debt you can't afford. For instance the zero down mortgage that has been decently popular over the past few years. They're completely illegal but they do it off the books so it's hard to pin down.

Illegal? How are they illegal? I will buy you dinner at Capital Grille if you prove they are illegal.

What I think is illegal is the fact that anybody can post like you and not be arrested for being so wrong. What's even worse is that your teachers haven't been arrested for producing such misguided opinions, logic, and reading comprehension.

The *only* reason why businesses require money down is loss mitigation based upon reducing the liklihood of default by having equity (interest in not losing the money) and the fact that even if you default on 100% of the loan and sell the house for a 20% loss, the bank still breaks even.

Otherwise, it's completely legal to issue 100% loans on anything from dog sh!t to houses.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: alchemize
Send em all to Gitmo LK!

Some days I wonder if we shouldn't.

I have been wrong about a lot of things in my life and I know I will be wrong about a lot more. Vic has corrected me on mortgages before, but I have never been so wrong as the dude above. To make such a declarative statement and thinking it's true is just so misguided. What's worse is that he probably has shared these ideas with others, further spreading the FUDD.

Really people, unless you know the complexities of this stuff, don't talk about it. All you do is spread trash.

It's akin to internet "tubes" coming from a politician. Do you think that trash helps people? Does your ingorance, spreading from one person to another, help at all?

That's how Ron Paul works with regards to monetary policy. He takes a kernel of truth, wraps an over-arching conspiracy theory into it, manipulates it beyond imagination, and then spreads it among his disciples. They take it and spout shit on the internet like it's truth, when, in reality, it's garbage.

That's what Bush, Guiliani, Clinton and almost all other politicians do. They depend on you being an ignorant fool.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
If the media keeps screaming about a recession, even when our economy is the strongest, fastest growing and most employed in the history of earth, people will eventually start making financial decisions based on the media hype, and this will drive a recession.

Are you accounting for debt in your 'strong economy'? Are you accounting for gains being broadly distributed in your 'strong economy'?

I am accounting for the debt ratio, yes. As opposed to the big scary raw debt figure, which by itself is meaningless and only cited in order to provoke an emotional response.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
If the media keeps screaming about a recession, even when our economy is the strongest, fastest growing and most employed in the history of earth, people will eventually start making financial decisions based on the media hype, and this will drive a recession.

Yea its the liberal medias fault that oil is bouncing near $100, hosing market is in the tank, dollar has dropped like a rock, etc... :roll:

Thank god i have faux news to tell me things are great... when republicans are in power.

Yes, the media is at fault for oil bouncing near $100. Did you not hear the facts behind what happened with the market? It was ONE investor, that bought oil at $100 to resell at a personal loss, just so he could claim he bought oil at $100! Sounds like media hype to me!

What about the housing market? The reason why so many people's mortgages are being foreclosed is due to the lending of money to people who were financially not able to repay their loans. These people were mostly low incomes and minorities. The same low incomes and minorities that congress passed a law requiring banks to loan to, because the media led the congress's voters to believe the big evil banks were just mean old racists. Now we are seeing the consequences of that emotional response.

As for the dollar "dropping like a rock", I'll have to look into that one a bit :)
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
I wouldn't blame the media but they're certainly not blameless either. There's mortgage ads in the OP's link FFS. It's like how you can be watching the news and they'll do a segment on obesity, then it goes to a fast food commercial. The media is heavily vested in consumerism.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: Vic
"Fault" (if such must be applied) lies with the average American's desire to hawk his future to pay for the excesses of his present. That doesn't have anything to do with partisan politics, except that politicians of both the major parties are always trying to convince the people that they can get more for less.

I agree. But some companies sure do make it easy to rack up debt you can't afford. For instance the zero down mortgage that has been decently popular over the past few years. They're completely illegal but they do it off the books so it's hard to pin down.

Illegal? How are they illegal? I will buy you dinner at Capital Grille if you prove they are illegal.

What I think is illegal is the fact that anybody can post like you and not be arrested for being so wrong. What's even worse is that your teachers haven't been arrested for producing such misguided opinions, logic, and reading comprehension.

The *only* reason why businesses require money down is loss mitigation based upon reducing the liklihood of default by having equity (interest in not losing the money) and the fact that even if you default on 100% of the loan and sell the house for a 20% loss, the bank still breaks even.

Otherwise, it's completely legal to issue 100% loans on anything from dog sh!t to houses.

I'm thinking of something different. I recall reading of a scheme in Freakonomics that I think he said was illegal where the realtor would give them the required down payment for the house but up the sale price for the house by the amount given.

Oh btw, no need to be a raging dickhead about the subject. A simple your wrong would have sufficed. I'll edit my previous post so there's no confusion.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Well, in the last recession, cheap money and the refi boom fueled the recovery- that well's dry, or nearly so.

What fuels the next recovery?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Well, in the last recession, cheap money and the refi boom fueled the recovery- that well's dry, or nearly so.

What fuels the next recovery?

The economy would have come out of the recession, just 2 years after it did with the credit.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Well, in the last recession, cheap money and the refi boom fueled the recovery- that well's dry, or nearly so.

What fuels the next recovery?

People fuel every recovery. Going to work and conducting their business like they always do. The "some authority must bail us out with some financial magic trick!!" bullshit, whether from the left or the right, is just smoke and mirrors to instill confidence (and prevent irrational panic) in the garlic-eating masses.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Recession? Didn't that start when the year savings went negative? 2004? 2005?
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Originally posted by: Vic
"Fault" (if such must be applied) lies with the averge American's desire to hawk his future to pay for the excesses of his present. That doesn't have anything to do with partisan politics, except that politicians of both the major parties are always trying to convince the people that they can get more for less.
:thumbsup:

I'm so sick of people always looking for anything else to blame other then todays typical American who will actually put GROCERIES on credit cards because they are living so far in check-to-check land or beyond. I am amazed at the poor choices the people in this country make with their money.

One of the most typical bonehead moves I see a lot of people making today is buying a brand new car with their first real job... as opposed to a house or any other appriciating investment. Instead they buy one of the all time champions of plummetting value.

People congrats on getting a new job.. but guess what, the days of your uncle working at the factory for 47 years is OVER. And don't get an ARM thinking you will have a higher paying job by the time it adjusts either.. infact when I make my purchases I say, how much can I afford if I lost my job and had to do temp work even to make the bills.

What's interesting is that debt spending is exactly the kind of thing that fuels rapid economic growth. Sure, buying a car you can't afford right now is pretty stupid from a personal point of view, but on the other hand, you're giving the car company income. Spending creates money, and spending enough to put you into debt means MORE money is being created than if you just spent within your means. Over the short term, spending like you've only got a year to live actually helps fuel economic growth.

Of course that doesn't work forever, which is why you get the economic dips after the rises. That debt that worked so well to fuel growth before now acts as a brake on your spending, with too much debt you actually spend less than you would have before. Obtaining further debt becomes far more difficult, so you're forced to not only NOT spend like a maniac, you actually have to spend far less in order to pay off your existing debt.

If people didn't go into debt, we'd have slower economic growth during certain periods, but I suspect it would be more steady. Luckily, the various controls we have on the economy mean that the highs don't get too high, and the lows don't get too low. Absent outside factors, I suspect any coming recession will be fairly mild. It's mostly driven by the housing bubble, which won't have the fundamental seismic shock on the economy like a stock market free fall would.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Recession? Didn't that start when the year savings went negative? 2004? 2005?

A recession is technically defined as 2 back-to-back quarters of negative GDP growth. By that standard, using GDP, 2004 and 2005 were both relatively strong growth years.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Originally posted by: Vic
"Fault" (if such must be applied) lies with the averge American's desire to hawk his future to pay for the excesses of his present. That doesn't have anything to do with partisan politics, except that politicians of both the major parties are always trying to convince the people that they can get more for less.
:thumbsup:

I'm so sick of people always looking for anything else to blame other then todays typical American who will actually put GROCERIES on credit cards because they are living so far in check-to-check land or beyond. I am amazed at the poor choices the people in this country make with their money.

One of the most typical bonehead moves I see a lot of people making today is buying a brand new car with their first real job... as opposed to a house or any other appriciating investment. Instead they buy one of the all time champions of plummetting value.

People congrats on getting a new job.. but guess what, the days of your uncle working at the factory for 47 years is OVER. And don't get an ARM thinking you will have a higher paying job by the time it adjusts either.. infact when I make my purchases I say, how much can I afford if I lost my job and had to do temp work even to make the bills.

What's interesting is that debt spending is exactly the kind of thing that fuels rapid economic growth. Sure, buying a car you can't afford right now is pretty stupid from a personal point of view, but on the other hand, you're giving the car company income. Spending creates money, and spending enough to put you into debt means MORE money is being created than if you just spent within your means. Over the short term, spending like you've only got a year to live actually helps fuel economic growth.

Of course that doesn't work forever, which is why you get the economic dips after the rises. That debt that worked so well to fuel growth before now acts as a brake on your spending, with too much debt you actually spend less than you would have before. Obtaining further debt becomes far more difficult, so you're forced to not only NOT spend like a maniac, you actually have to spend far less in order to pay off your existing debt.

If people didn't go into debt, we'd have slower economic growth during certain periods, but I suspect it would be more steady. Luckily, the various controls we have on the economy mean that the highs don't get too high, and the lows don't get too low. Absent outside factors, I suspect any coming recession will be fairly mild. It's mostly driven by the housing bubble, which won't have the fundamental seismic shock on the economy like a stock market free fall would.

This recession is driven by US debt, the housing bubble is only a tiny part of that. By the time Bush leaves office it is estimated that the US will owe $ 10 trillion dollars.

Relative to oil the US stock market hasn't been doing great lately has it.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
If the media keeps screaming about a recession, even when our economy is the strongest, fastest growing and most employed in the history of earth, people will eventually start making financial decisions based on the media hype, and this will drive a recession.

Yea its the liberal medias fault that oil is bouncing near $100, hosing market is in the tank, dollar has dropped like a rock, etc... :roll:

Thank god i have faux news to tell me things are great... when republicans are in power.
I didn't see his post as partisan. It was true. Like the stock market, perceptions drive the future. Why was the market at 14k and now suddely 13k? Conjecture,guessing, there is no real loss of value or gain in value, it's all a big circle jerk and recessions can certainly be motivated by this. You tell people a recession is coming, they tighten the hold on their wallets, and look it comes.