MPG ratings - a scam?

EagleKeeper

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On radio this AM, there was ad for the new Dodge Dart.
Claiming 41mpg with Aero package.

Disclaimer:
Premium gas required.

The octane level of Premium cam vary based on supplier.
Is there a definition of Premium octane levels?

Regular runs from 85 to 87.

Are any of the other MPG claims based on Premium and not overtly stating so?
 
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fstime

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Jan 18, 2004
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Filling up with regular only makes people feel like they are saving money.

Assuming you drive around 12,000 miles per year, you're only saving $70.

While the Dart does is probably not a performance oriented car, higher octane gas (91-93 octane) is usually required in such applications because those engines usually feature higher compression ratios, requiring the slower combustion provided by 91+ octane.

Modern cars will not knock, as the ECU will automatically retard the valve timings to compensate you putting in a lower octane fuel than what is required. Your fuel economy will suffer however.

tldr: $70/year difference, big deal.
 

slugg

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Feb 17, 2002
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Filling up with regular only makes people feel like they are saving money.

Assuming you drive around 12,000 miles per year, you're only saving $70.

While the Dart does is probably not a performance oriented car, higher octane gas (91-93 octane) is usually required in such applications because those engines usually feature higher compression ratios, requiring the slower combustion provided by 91+ octane.

Modern cars will not knock, as the ECU will automatically retard the valve timings to compensate you putting in a lower octane fuel than what is required. Your fuel economy will suffer however.

tldr: $70/year difference, big deal.

I'm not arguing, but could you explain the $70 figure?
 

phucheneh

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Jun 30, 2012
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Assuming a 30 cent difference and 30mpg, that's $120.

Mileage rating are definitely a joke...I've always exceeded them by a good margin. And I don't drive conservatively. This has nothing to do with octane, just has been true of all the cars I have owned or taken on trips.

I don't know what people do to get such poor claimed mileage sometimes. I also don't see how the thing in the OP is a scam. There are plenty of cars with stated premium requirements. You're mad at them because they made it optional?

edit: also the ECM/PCM retards ignition timing to control knock, not valve timing. And what poor bastard state gets 85 octane?
 

fstime

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Jan 18, 2004
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I'm not arguing, but could you explain the $70 figure?

12000/41 = 292 gallons/year.

Not sure what the exact difference between regular and premium is, so I just went with 25 cents so 292 *.25 = $73.
 

slugg

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It's a 35 to 40 cent difference here in Tampa. But still, I don't see how requiring premium fuel to achieve the stated gas mileage is a scam.
 

Jimzz

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Oct 23, 2012
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Assuming a 30 cent difference and 30mpg, that's $120.

Mileage rating are definitely a joke...I've always exceeded them by a good margin. And I don't drive conservatively. This has nothing to do with octane, just has been true of all the cars I have owned or taken on trips.

I don't know what people do to get such poor claimed mileage sometimes. I also don't see how the thing in the OP is a scam. There are plenty of cars with stated premium requirements. You're mad at them because they made it optional?

edit: also the ECM/PCM retards ignition timing to control knock, not valve timing. And what poor bastard state gets 85 octane?


Yea where is this 85octane?

Also I always get less than the rated gas milage. But I also live in a very populated area (NoVA) and drive shorter distances.
 

slugg

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Feb 17, 2002
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Yea where is this 85octane?

Also I always get less than the rated gas milage. But I also live in a very populated area (NoVA) and drive shorter distances.

I think, but I'm not sure, that the 85 octane gas is the one that's loaded with ethanol. I've never seen it, but then again, Florida has some laws limiting the amount of ethanol in our gasoline. There are talks of eliminating ethanol in the fuel, even. I digress.
 

leper84

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Dec 29, 2011
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85 octane is for high altitudes. Less pressure= less octane needed. IIRC everything drops down a couple points, regular is 85, mid is 87 and premium is 89-91.

Last time I drove through NM and CO I remember this being the case.
 

phucheneh

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Jun 30, 2012
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But the compression ratio doesn't change...you need more throttle to get the same amount of air into the cylinder, but then it's still the same quantity of air being compressed by the same amount, no? Am I missing something here?

There's nothing really wrong with ethanol from an octane standpoint (economics...a little different). The portion of the fuel displaced by the ethanol is going to lose about a third of its energy, but it's IIRC about 110 octane equivalent.

If you take 87 and mix it to 20% ethanol, you now have around 92 octane equivalence...albeit at around 80% energy density. Helps emissions, too, though.

My question has always been how fuels with added ethanol are rated...15-20% ethanol is the norm around here. Does that mean they're starting with <85 octane gasoline as a base?

edit: waitaminute my 80% number sounds like bullshit...what's wrong with my math here...80% of the fuel has 100% of the original energy, 20% has 66%...

Oh shizzle, I'm retarded. It's ~93%. I had ((100 x 80) + (.66 x 20)) / 100. That first 100 should be a 1...bit o' mixing units there, heh.
 
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EagleKeeper

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Yea where is this 85octane?
85 octane is for high altitudes. Less pressure= less octane needed. IIRC everything drops down a couple points, regular is 85, mid is 87 and premium is 89-91.

Last time I drove through NM and CO I remember this being the case.

Most everwhere the altitude is above 4-5K feet.

Rocky Mountain states, including parts of NV , ID and UT.

My main grip via the OP is that are the manufacturers comparing apples to apples in terms of mileage; when they are using a different set of fuel to generate such numbers.

I have never noticed any other MPG comparison stating the Premium must be used.

Recently there was an article on 40+ mpg cars to verify claims.
A few cars actually delivered; nowhere was the type of fuel referenced.
 

phucheneh

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Most everwhere the altitude is above 4-5K feet.

Rocky Mountain states, including parts of NV , ID and UT.

My main grip via the OP is that are the manufacturers comparing apples to apples in terms of mileage; when they are using a different set of fuel to generate such numbers.

I have never noticed any other MPG comparison stating the Premium must be used.

Recently there was an article on 40+ mpg cars to verify claims.
A few cars actually delivered; nowhere was the type of fuel referenced.

Um...you've never seen a performance or luxury car with 'premium fuel only' written inside the gas door?

They don't get EPA rated with 87 octane, even though they can run it.
 

Franz316

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Sep 12, 2000
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The Cruze Eco does mid 40mpg on the highway with regular gas so I don't know why Dodge had to go and use premium.
 

vi edit

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Just wait till you get your first oil change bill on these high MPG cars. Other things they do to eak out every drop of economy is put synthetic oil in them. Enjoy the $50 oil change. :)
 

Arkaign

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Oct 27, 2006
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Just wait till you get your first oil change bill on these high MPG cars. Other things they do to eak out every drop of economy is put synthetic oil in them. Enjoy the $50 oil change. :)

Hehe, yeah. I always use synthetic though, and I do it myself, so it's not too bad. I don't go for AMSOIL/etc anymore, I just use the $20-$25 jug of Mobil 1 (yes, I know it's not a true Group 4 oil anymore) from Walmart. I prefer it though, and with 5k changes it still comes out about as clean as it goes in.

It's one of those things I think is very affordable in the big picture of owning and maintaining a car. In my Focus I average mid 30s combined, so driving 5000 miles takes no more than 166 gallons of fuel to do that (giving 30mpg as a baseline). At $3/gallon conservative estimate (usually more), that means I'm spending at least $500 to drive those miles. So spending a few bucks more, even if it's $50, to get higher quality oil that doesn't leave so much residue and carbonized crap in my motor is worth it to me.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
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Oh yeah, and as for fuel economy numbers, I usually get better than rated numbers, but some cars seem to be overrated.

My Focus 5MT was underrated, I think it's officially 24/35, I see more like 33-35 combined. Long road trips net me 40+ easily.

My 2012 TC 6MT is vastly overrated, it's officially 23/31, but I see no more than 22 combined. It's actually really annoying having the power of an i4 with the fuel economy of a V8 Vette. Road trips see high 20s at best.

My old LeSabre 3800 V6 was a beast, I'd see 25 combined, but on road trips at 70+ easily hit 30-32.
 

EagleKeeper

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Um...you've never seen a performance or luxury car with 'premium fuel only' written inside the gas door?

They don't get EPA rated with 87 octane, even though they can run it.

I have seen where the vehicles require Premium.

I have not previously seen MPG advertisment charts/comparisons where Premium is referenced.
 

JulesMaximus

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Jul 3, 2003
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12000/41 = 292 gallons/year.

Not sure what the exact difference between regular and premium is, so I just went with 25 cents so 292 *.25 = $73.

If your car gets 15mpg that figure changes to $200.

Pretty much any turbocharged engine is going to require premium fuel.
 
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Phanuel

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Apr 25, 2008
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But the compression ratio doesn't change...you need more throttle to get the same amount of air into the cylinder, but then it's still the same quantity of air being compressed by the same amount, no? Am I missing something here?

No, air is only so dense. At higher altitude, the air is less dense. Lets say 10psi instead of the usual 14psi (1bar).

You can still only fit .5liters of air into a cylinder (in a 2.0l 4cylinder). And at 10psi instead of 14psi, you're at less pressure. Engine works harder (more compression and explosion cycles per minute) to generate the same amount of power at higher altitude than it would at lower altitude. It's generating less energy per compression though, you're just compensating with more revolutions.

I can't give you the math for this as I don't know it well enough, but you need more throttle not to get more air into the cylinder (that never changes, you always get the same amount of air into a cylinder regardless of throttle position) but to have more energy generation events in a time span.
 

sjwaste

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Aug 2, 2000
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I did a little experiment this past summer in my Outback (3.6R, not the 4 cyl). In general, I got about 25 MPG with 87 octane. But I got about 28 with 89. Did 1000+ miles on both at least twice, since my commute was roughly 100 miles a day. Depending on the price difference, it was definitely worth going to mid-grade. I repeated with 91 but didn't see much of an improvement after about 500 mi so I stopped.
 

phucheneh

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Jun 30, 2012
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No, air is only so dense. At higher altitude, the air is less dense. Lets say 10psi instead of the usual 14psi (1bar).

You can still only fit .5liters of air into a cylinder (in a 2.0l 4cylinder). And at 10psi instead of 14psi, you're at less pressure. Engine works harder (more compression and explosion cycles per minute) to generate the same amount of power at higher altitude than it would at lower altitude. It's generating less energy per compression though, you're just compensating with more revolutions.

I can't give you the math for this as I don't know it well enough, but you need more throttle not to get more air into the cylinder (that never changes, you always get the same amount of air into a cylinder regardless of throttle position) but to have more energy generation events in a time span.

Eh? Air is measured by mass, not volume, specifically because the volume of a gas can be compressed. The displacement of a cylinder is measured as if it were filled with an incompressible liquid, as are the combustion chamber and swept volume. The ensuing compression ratio dictates what the quantity of air sucked into the cylinder will become when compressed.

Less air in means less fuel in, which means the combined mixture is less dense under compression and less power is produced. This is all fact, unless I have had a severe brainfart somewhere. Now, though, onto speculation:

Less power produced in an idling engine is going to mean a lower idle speed, isn't it? Since you can't magically create more vacuum at the same RPM and throttle position, atmospheric pressure has no way to cram additional air into the engine. So you'd have to open the throttle more, I would think.

WOT is easier to think about, since it is, ideally, zero vacuum or close to it. If zero, MAP becomes atmospheric pressure, and the engine at altitude will always ingest less air and therefore make less power.

But to lower octane requirement, would you not still have to lower compression ratio? The lesser amount of air being brought into the cylinder would still correlate to a sea level engine that is simply running at a different speed/load, right? I can't see this any other way in my head, but I have absolutely no idea if I'm actually right.

What twists my brain around is thinking about what would have to happen with vacuum numbers.

Assuming an NA engine...let's say:

Engine A is in Denver...atmospheric pressure of somewhere around 12psi (~0.8atm).

Engine B is...let's go with 'somewhere else' :D...standard sea level pressure of 14.7psi (1atm).

We know that an average engine idling at sea level will have about 18-20inHg of vacuum (20inHg = 9.8psi). That makes the absolute pressure inside the intake 4.9psi. So that's baseline.

The big question is what changes when you go up a mile with other engine? You've got thinner air, AND less atmospheric pressure to push it into the intake...so one would think you'd have to see a lower MAP value inside the intake so that a larger pressure differential is created...ugh, my brain.

GOOGLE, HELP ME.

http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1354

Shit, what?

Wow...I briefly thought about exhaust backpressure in regards to lower atmospheric pressure, but dismissed it at trivial. Apparently, that's the key. It equals higher volumetric efficiency which means the engine can run on the less-dense air.

But wait...that still doesn't answer the octane issue. Fuck me.D:
 

mpo

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Jan 8, 2010
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Just wait till you get your first oil change bill on these high MPG cars. Other things they do to eak out every drop of economy is put synthetic oil in them. Enjoy the $50 oil change. :)
$22 at the dealership using 5W-20 semi synthetic. Same as my last car.
 

Ferzerp

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Oct 12, 1999
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OP doesn't understand that any appreciable amount of boost requires higher octane. That dart has a turbo, so it needs premium fuel.