Mouse and keyboard on the console

[tigersty1e]

Why don't they add this abilty on the consoles?

It seems like a feature they could implement with some effort... but would add much more playbility.

 

[Queasy]

Oh no. Not again.

 

[tigersty1e]

Blocked by Websense.... care to explain.

 

[Queasy]

No, it's just a funny YouTube clip from SpaceBalls.

Basically, we've had this discussion ad nauseum. The run down is that the PS3 supports Mouse and Keyboard but it is up to the developer whether or not they want to use it. UT3 is one of the only, if not the only, game that supports it. The 360 supports using a keyboard for text entry in the Dash and in some games like FFXII.

The reason KB/M is not supported widespread on consoles is because they are consoles. The vast majority of them sit in living rooms hooked up to TVs where having a keyboard and mouse doesn't make much sense. Devs are not going to put the time and effort for adding support for a different controller for a miniscule part of the population that may use it. Plus, as far as MS goes, they don't want to unbalance games online with some having KB/M and some not.

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: Queasy
No, it's just a funny YouTube clip from SpaceBalls.

Basically, we've had this discussion ad nauseum. The run down is that the PS3 supports Mouse and Keyboard but it is up to the developer whether or not they want to use it. UT3 is one of the only, if not the only, game that supports it. The 360 supports using a keyboard for text entry in the Dash and in some games like FFXII.

The reason KB/M is not supported widespread on consoles is because they are consoles. The vast majority of them sit in living rooms hooked up to TVs where having a keyboard and mouse doesn't make much sense. Devs are going to put the time and effort for adding support for a different controller for a miniscule part of the population that may use it. Plus, as far as MS goes, they don't want to unbalance games online with some having KB/M and some not.

Part of me rationally understands what you're saying, but the other, far more geeky part of me screams "bullshit!" Seriously, the only reason I'm not abandoning the PC for a console is the Mouse. I simply don't like the loss of responsiveness when moving to a gamepad. The 1st console to closely integrate KBM wins me over (xbox, seriously, WTF?)

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: jjzelinski

Originally posted by: Queasy
No, it's just a funny YouTube clip from SpaceBalls.

Basically, we've had this discussion ad nauseum. The run down is that the PS3 supports Mouse and Keyboard but it is up to the developer whether or not they want to use it. UT3 is one of the only, if not the only, game that supports it. The 360 supports using a keyboard for text entry in the Dash and in some games like FFXII.

The reason KB/M is not supported widespread on consoles is because they are consoles. The vast majority of them sit in living rooms hooked up to TVs where having a keyboard and mouse doesn't make much sense. Devs are going to put the time and effort for adding support for a different controller for a miniscule part of the population that may use it. Plus, as far as MS goes, they don't want to unbalance games online with some having KB/M and some not.

Part of me rationally understands what you're saying, but the other, far more geeky part of me screams "bullshit!" Seriously, the only reason I'm not abandoning the PC for a console is the Mouse. I simply don't like the loss of responsiveness when moving to a gamepad. The 1st console to closely integrate KBM wins me over (xbox, seriously, WTF?)

What MS and other developers have realized is that they will lose more money than they would gain by adding this support. It takes a lot of dev time to add support like that properly while designing the game to retain balance between the KB/M users and the controller users. The customers who are not purchasing the games/hardware only due to this fact are just not enough to justify the expense. Until that changes, you will not see a KB/M become standard. Considering the way I have been seeing much younger gamers evolve through exposure to video games, I would also venture to say that the demand for a KB/M will become even less over time since the popularity of consoles is far exceeding PC right now and that does not look to change anytime soon. Us old school KB/M users are slowly becoming dieing breed.

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: jjzelinski

Originally posted by: Queasy
No, it's just a funny YouTube clip from SpaceBalls.

Basically, we've had this discussion ad nauseum. The run down is that the PS3 supports Mouse and Keyboard but it is up to the developer whether or not they want to use it. UT3 is one of the only, if not the only, game that supports it. The 360 supports using a keyboard for text entry in the Dash and in some games like FFXII.

The reason KB/M is not supported widespread on consoles is because they are consoles. The vast majority of them sit in living rooms hooked up to TVs where having a keyboard and mouse doesn't make much sense. Devs are going to put the time and effort for adding support for a different controller for a miniscule part of the population that may use it. Plus, as far as MS goes, they don't want to unbalance games online with some having KB/M and some not.

Part of me rationally understands what you're saying, but the other, far more geeky part of me screams "bullshit!" Seriously, the only reason I'm not abandoning the PC for a console is the Mouse. I simply don't like the loss of responsiveness when moving to a gamepad. The 1st console to closely integrate KBM wins me over (xbox, seriously, WTF?)

What MS and other developers have realized is that they will lose more money than they would gain by adding this support. It takes a lot of dev time to add support like that properly while designing the game to retain balance between the KB/M users and the controller users. The customers who are not purchasing the games/hardware only due to this fact are just not enough to justify the expense. Until that changes, you will not see a KB/M become standard. Considering the way I have been seeing much younger gamers evolve through exposure to video games, I would also venture to say that the demand for a KB/M will become even less over time since the popularity of consoles is far exceeding PC right now and that does not look to change anytime soon. Us old school KB/M users are slowly becoming dieing breed.

I was under the impression that the xbox platform was closely patterned after the pc, in fact the original xbox was entirely pc based. If so, then how hard could it be to implement a routine interface mechanism like kbm? I don't see the 360 being that far detached from the nature of the original xbox.

In truth I think it would cost developers peanuts to implement KBM and Microsoft could easily milk saps like me for hardware costs ("proprietary keyboard and mouse solution!"). The only thing that holds them back is that they discount the significance of the PC gaming community; in our entirety we wouldn't justify the meager cost of KBM support. Assuming I'm not the only one waiting with bated breath for said feature, again I say "bullshit"

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: jjzelinski

I was under the impression that the xbox platform was closely patterned after the pc, in fact the original xbox was entirely pc based. If so, then how hard could it be to implement a routine interface mechanism like kbm? I don't see the 360 being that far detached from the nature of the original xbox.

In truth I think it would cost developers peanuts to implement KBM and Microsoft could easily milk saps like me for hardware costs ("proprietary keyboard and mouse solution!"). The only thing that holds them back is that they discount the significance of the PC gaming community; in our entirety we wouldn't justify the meager cost of KBM support. Assuming I'm not the only one waiting with bated breath for said feature, again I say "bullshit"

Simply adding the functionality is easy, but that is not enough. Adding it in such a way which equalizes balance both in single player and multiplayer for most games can be a very difficult and expensive design decision. Games which become unbalanced due to a developer's efforts to incorporate multiple control interfaces will unnecessarily take away from the fun of the game. That risk is not considered to be worth it by most developers and the solution to prevent that risk is more expensive than what it is worth for most games.

It really is not as easy as it sounds.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: jjzelinski

I was under the impression that the xbox platform was closely patterned after the pc, in fact the original xbox was entirely pc based. If so, then how hard could it be to implement a routine interface mechanism like kbm? I don't see the 360 being that far detached from the nature of the original xbox.

In truth I think it would cost developers peanuts to implement KBM and Microsoft could easily milk saps like me for hardware costs ("proprietary keyboard and mouse solution!"). The only thing that holds them back is that they discount the significance of the PC gaming community; in our entirety we wouldn't justify the meager cost of KBM support. Assuming I'm not the only one waiting with bated breath for said feature, again I say "bullshit"

Simply adding the functionality is easy, but that is not enough. Adding it in such a way which equalizes balance both in single player and multiplayer for most games can be a very difficult and expensive design decision. Games which become unbalanced due to a developer's efforts to incorporate multiple control interfaces will unnecessarily take away from the fun of the game. That risk is not considered to be worth it by most developers and the solution to prevent that risk is more expensive than what it is worth for most games.

It really is not as easy as it sounds.

Yep. Look at Shadowrun. The devs spent an inordinate amount of time balancing the play between 360 users and PC users using KB/M. So much time in fact that the overall game came out disappointingly.

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

I just got an XBOX and am learning to use a controller in FPS. It's not as difficult as I expected as long as I can invert the Y-axis

Q3 will always be mouse only though

 

[onlyCOpunk]

Simple solution. Don't play fps games on a console.

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: jjzelinski

I was under the impression that the xbox platform was closely patterned after the pc, in fact the original xbox was entirely pc based. If so, then how hard could it be to implement a routine interface mechanism like kbm? I don't see the 360 being that far detached from the nature of the original xbox.

In truth I think it would cost developers peanuts to implement KBM and Microsoft could easily milk saps like me for hardware costs ("proprietary keyboard and mouse solution!"). The only thing that holds them back is that they discount the significance of the PC gaming community; in our entirety we wouldn't justify the meager cost of KBM support. Assuming I'm not the only one waiting with bated breath for said feature, again I say "bullshit"

Simply adding the functionality is easy, but that is not enough. Adding it in such a way which equalizes balance both in single player and multiplayer for most games can be a very difficult and expensive design decision. Games which become unbalanced due to a developer's efforts to incorporate multiple control interfaces will unnecessarily take away from the fun of the game. That risk is not considered to be worth it by most developers and the solution to prevent that risk is more expensive than what it is worth for most games.

It really is not as easy as it sounds.

Yep. Look at Shadowrun. The devs spent an inordinate amount of time balancing the play between 360 users and PC users using KB/M. So much time in fact that the overall game came out disappointingly.

My solution would be to have it as a server-side toggle. The player pool would naturally segregate themselves so no need to worry about people bitching about advantage this or disadvantage that

That aside, what about single player? RTS, RPG, etc. make use of KBM, not just FPS. In fact most of those would entail zero competitive disadvantage as far as responsiveness is concerned.

So KBM is mechanically simple to integrate, there are blatantly obvious solutions available for the kbm/game competition debate; so what is holding developers back? I'm not trying to be obtuse here, however I am trying to illustrate the needlessness of KBM's omission from modern consoles.

 

[purbeast0]

as i've said before and i'll say it again, i hope kb/m support never gets fully supported on a console for gameplay. if you want to know my reasons why search on the other hundred threads on thsi topic.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: jjzelinski

My solution would be to have it as a server-side toggle. The player pool would naturally segregate themselves so no need to worry about people bitching about advantage this or disadvantage that

That aside, what about single player? RTS, RPG, etc. make use of KBM, not just FPS. In fact most of those would entail zero competitive disadvantage as far as responsiveness is concerned.

So KBM is mechanically simple to integrate, there are blatantly obvious solutions available for the kbm/game competition debate; so what is holding developers back? I'm not trying to be obtuse here, however I am trying to illustrate the needlessness of KBM's omission from modern consoles.

I don't know what else to tell you other than it all boils down to money and popularity. There just isn't enough money to be made that justifies incorporating this feature. While you and I and many older gamer geeks might appreciate the feature, the vast majority of the consumer market could care less and even more might start complaining about how such and such developer made a great game but screwed up the balance and fun which killed it. You will see this a lot if it happens.

In regards to single player stuff, there is far less to balance and the devs have the opportunity to be much more flexible with that balance because it doesn't change how much money is made. The consumer rarely complains that their single player experience is unfair compared to the single player experience of someone else because they are using a KB/M. Therefore, despite the imbalances, everyone will buy the game regardless of multiple controller interface options. This also means that there is no need to waste money by incorporating the KB/M feature despite the ease of balance design unless a lot more copies will be sold due to that feature which is rarely the case.

Trust me. If the ends justified the means when it comes to the mighty dollar then you would get exactly what you are wishing for. It's not like the developers have not considered the possibilities. It is their job to consider that kind of thing. The fact is that it just doesn't add up.

 

[Thraxen]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
I don't know what else to tell you other than it all boils down to money and popularity. There just isn't enough money to be made that justifies incorporating this feature. While you and I and many older gamer geeks might appreciate the feature, the vast majority of the consumer market could care less and even more might start complaining about how such and such developer made a great game but screwed up the balance and fun which killed it. You will see this a lot if it happens.

But I'd argue that it would cost virtually nothing to add it. Many games are ported from or to the PC anyway, so KB/M support is already a must for those games. And even for the other games, how much could it possibly cost? KB/M is one of the oldest inputs around, I'm pretty sure most devs are familiar with it. And screw balancing issues. As was stated before, add a simple server side toggle to allow KB/M or not. Then people that would prefer to stick with controllers could simply play in controller-only games. We already have users out there using devices like the FragX anyway... and UT3 on the PC supports KB/M... and console gaming hasn't collapsed into a chaotic mess as a result. So what's the big deal?

Actually, one of main reasons I'd love to see it is to take a bullet point away from all those a-hole PC-only gamers out there that love to make that their main point for why they hate consoles.

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: Xavier434
I don't know what else to tell you other than it all boils down to money and popularity. There just isn't enough money to be made that justifies incorporating this feature. While you and I and many older gamer geeks might appreciate the feature, the vast majority of the consumer market could care less and even more might start complaining about how such and such developer made a great game but screwed up the balance and fun which killed it. You will see this a lot if it happens.

But I'd argue that it would cost virtually nothing to add it. Many games are ported from or to the PC anyway, so KB/M support is already a must for those games anyway. And even for the other games, how much could it possibly cost? KB/M is one of the oldest inputs around, I'm pretty sure most devs are familiar with it. And screw balancing issues. As was stated before, add a simple server side toggle to allow KB/M or not. Then people that would prefer to stick with controllers could simply play in controller-only games. We already have users out there using devices like the FragX anyway... and UT3 on the PC supports KB/M... and console gaming hasn't collapsed into a chaotic mess as a result. So what's the big deal?

Actually, one of main reasons I'd love to see it is to take a bullet point away from all those a-hole PC-only gamers out there that love to make that their main point for why they hate consoles.

I think it will happen, it's jsut being delayed because MS is trying to resurrect PC gaming with their Game for Windows BS. When that fizzles out (more then likely when and not if) then I think the 360 will serve as the stop gap. PC gamers may not be as sizable as console gamers in terms of quantity but we're an untapped demographic that WILL buy the console that best caters to us. I expect it will be the 360, just not yet.

Besides, I'm not buying those until they dump all the RROD stock and I can buy the newer, more reliable variety in confidence.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: jjzelinski

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: Xavier434
I don't know what else to tell you other than it all boils down to money and popularity. There just isn't enough money to be made that justifies incorporating this feature. While you and I and many older gamer geeks might appreciate the feature, the vast majority of the consumer market could care less and even more might start complaining about how such and such developer made a great game but screwed up the balance and fun which killed it. You will see this a lot if it happens.

But I'd argue that it would cost virtually nothing to add it. Many games are ported from or to the PC anyway, so KB/M support is already a must for those games anyway. And even for the other games, how much could it possibly cost? KB/M is one of the oldest inputs around, I'm pretty sure most devs are familiar with it. And screw balancing issues. As was stated before, add a simple server side toggle to allow KB/M or not. Then people that would prefer to stick with controllers could simply play in controller-only games. We already have users out there using devices like the FragX anyway... and UT3 on the PC supports KB/M... and console gaming hasn't collapsed into a chaotic mess as a result. So what's the big deal?

Actually, one of main reasons I'd love to see it is to take a bullet point away from all those a-hole PC-only gamers out there that love to make that their main point for why they hate consoles.

I think it will happen, it's jsut being delayed because MS is trying to resurrect PC gaming with their Game for Windows BS. When that fizzles out (more then likely when and not if) then I think the 360 will serve as the stop gap. PC gamers may not be as sizable as console gamers in terms of quantity but we're an untapped demographic that WILL buy the console that best caters to us. I expect it will be the 360, just not yet.

Besides, I'm not buying those until they dump all the RROD stock and I can buy the newer, more reliable variety in confidence.

MS is not stopping KB/M from what I understand. It is the Dev's choice in the matter which is not letting it happen. Plus, I don't think the whole argument about "supporting games for Windows" thing makes much sense. Whether the money they make comes from 360 purchases or PC purchases it is still just money. However, having control of both does allow a single company to split their focus on different markets and appeal to each market individually rather than try to blend their products too much resulting in only moderately appealing to both sides (thus, sacrificing some sense of quality). Now that is a good business strategy on MS's end. MS will make the most money that way considering where the industry currently stands. Perhaps that will change in the future, but for now it is a good idea.

No business out there is restricting the development to include KB/M for personal reasons. Their reasons strictly revolve around profit which there just isn't enough to make based off of it. You need to remember that the "gamer" has changed a lot over the past 10 years. The vast majority of people spending the dollars on games today are not the hardcore PC gamers from long ago that really feel strong about a KB/M. Those gamers are now a minority. That doesn't mean they are ignored mind you, but it does mean that if the dollars do not add up to appease those gamers then they will not get the attention they wish to receive from every angle in the industry.


Lastly, I think you can purchase a 360 in confidence that it will not RROD now. If you are that concerned though just buy one from Costco.

 

[Oyeve]

Originally posted by: tigersty1e
Blocked by Websense.... care to explain.

You use that too? Aint it a PITA?

 

[jamesbond007]

I wish adding keyboard/mouse support was easier. On the Xbox (original and 360) there are adapters that will allow you to hook up any ol' keyboard/mouse combination! However, they seem to run in the area of $80, which is absurd, considering a Microsoft branded wireless controller is $60!

I also wish that native support was enabled via Xbox Live updates. That would be the sweetest dashboard update. Evar!!! Halo Wars with a controller? Uh, no thanks!

~Travis