Motherboards with integrated processor?

[Shalmanese]

I was just thinking. The market is heavily dichotomised into two segments, gamers who care about performance, and everybody else who doesn't. Gamers want/need the Geforce 4's and the 9700's but everybody else is perfectly content with onboard video. Why hasn't this also happened with processors where the people who need high performance can go with a discrete solution and those who just want to use office can buy an all-in-one mobo with a processor/ram on board. All but the low end models would also have the appropriate socket where you could attach a new processor if you feel the need for an upgrade, just like with onboard video. Something like 800Mhz would be perfectly acceptable for the vast majority of users, yet nobody seems to be able to get a processor less than 1.4Ghz.

 

[CTho9305]

Originally posted by: Shalmanese
I was just thinking. The market is heavily dichotomised into two segments, gamers who care about performance, and everybody else who doesn't. Gamers want/need the Geforce 4's and the 9700's but everybody else is perfectly content with onboard video. Why hasn't this also happened with processors where the people who need high performance can go with a discrete solution and those who just want to use office can buy an all-in-one mobo with a processor/ram on board. All but the low end models would also have the appropriate socket where you could attach a new processor if you feel the need for an upgrade, just like with onboard video. Something like 800Mhz would be perfectly acceptable for the vast majority of users, yet nobody seems to be able to get a processor less than 1.4Ghz.

I would imagine it is because if you're Dell, you don't want to be locked in to what you are selling. The ability to change processors at any time is probably valuable.

 

[Peter]

It's been done for quite a while, as usual by low end driving force PC-Chips, and they've been selling quite well.

M787CL - VIA C3 667 MHz, VIA PLE133 chipset
M810CL - AMD Duron 850, SiS 730S chipset
M810DCL - AMD Duron 1200, SiS 740 chipset

The concept is, use an existing microATX board design, get rid of the CPU socket, solder in a bargain CPU whose shelf life as a standalone part is nearing its end, minimize CPU power supply strength on the mainboard.

If a 300-400 MHz CPU is well fast enough for office use and internet browsing, who cares that you can't upgrade?

 

[CTho9305]

Originally posted by: Peter
It's been done for quite a while, as usual by low end driving force PC-Chips, and they've been selling quite well.

M787CL - VIA C3 667 MHz, VIA PLE133 chipset
M810CL - AMD Duron 850, SiS 730S chipset
M810DCL - AMD Duron 1200, SiS 740 chipset

The concept is, use an existing microATX board design, get rid of the CPU socket, solder in a bargain CPU whose shelf life as a standalone part is nearing its end, minimize CPU power supply strength on the mainboard.

If a 300-400 MHz CPU is well fast enough for office use and internet browsing, who cares that you can't upgrade?

Are those systems much cheaper? Got any links?

 

[Peter]

Yes, systems with the 787CL board go as low as 299 euros, complete with keyboard, mouse, speakers and all (no OS). M810 and 810D systems are 50 to 70 euros more, which is still a real bargain.

 

[CTho9305]

(sorry for dragging the thread OT)
thanks - those could be useful

 

[dejitaru]

http://www.apple.com/imac

 

[Jhill]

The Computer store by my house sells a budget system with an AMD duron 1.3g cpu integrated. (it might be 1.0 gig i don't remember exactly)

 

[majewski9]

I dont know about the totally integrated chip market but as far as the super small form factor market im all for it. there are several models offered by ECS. USing Durons and C3's some of these setups could be quite powerful.

 

[rayster]

The Via C3's are descendents of totally integrated chips that Cyrix developed in the mid-late 90s to help drive themselves out of business. The average person needs a large screen Palm. They surf, read email, download porn and music and occasionally create a document or spreadsheet, all of which the relatively dinky processors in a Palm or a Pocket PC can do. But as someone who used to sell computers, once some yokel's brother tells him that he needs "at least 1 megahertz of memory and a 4 gig cdrom, plus a couple of hard drives" to run Word, you won't sell him anything that doesn't have near workstation specs on the side of the box (and I remember when "workstation" and "PC" were not equivalent). It might be different now that people bying multiple PCs. You might be able to sell them on the idea of a fast rig for games, the kids, productivity; and smaller, cheaper "task" computers elsewhere.

 

[m0ti]

sorry to go blatantly OT on the thread, but rayster you're sig is not Anon at all. Scott Adams wrote that in one of his Dilbert Books (can't quite remember which one. I think it's the Dilbert Principle).

 

[rayster]

'Kay, there you go. So do you get your wings now Clarence?

 

[Peter]

Originally posted by: rayster
The Via C3's are descendents of totally integrated chips that Cyrix developed in the mid-late 90s to help drive themselves out of business. The average person needs a large screen Palm. They surf, read email, download porn and music and occasionally create a document or spreadsheet, all of which the relatively dinky processors in a Palm or a Pocket PC can do. But as someone who used to sell computers, once some yokel's brother tells him that he needs "at least 1 megahertz of memory and a 4 gig cdrom, plus a couple of hard drives" to run Word, you won't sell him anything that doesn't have near workstation specs on the side of the box (and I remember when "workstation" and "PC" were not equivalent). It might be different now that people bying multiple PCs. You might be able to sell them on the idea of a fast rig for games, the kids, productivity; and smaller, cheaper "task" computers elsewhere.

Wrong on the C3. When VIA bought Cyrix and Centaur, they did let the Cyrix team do a prototype run of their MIII which was a descendant of the standalone socket-7 MII. This was to be marketed as "VIA Cyrix III", and even made it to press release and sample shipments. Production yield was awful though, no cure in sight, VIA pissed the Cyrix team off, and most of them left and/or were released. The C3 as we know it is a descendant of the WinChip core designed by the Centaur team, with a very low instructions-per-clock rate (as opposed to the Cyrix chip) and an even worse floating point unit - but in turn very simple to manufacture and extremely low in power consumption.

Btw, not all of Cyrix was sold to VIA ... the mentioned "integrated" Cyrix core stayed with National Semiconductor, and still is alive and kicking, in new clothes as "Geode", in various versions for different types of appliances and computers.

Luckily my folks here trust me in giving them adequate gear for the task. Been using the ultra weak and ultra cheap 787CL with a couple of really budget constrained people. Does the job. Even though C3's ultra slow floating point unit has to manage the AMR modem too, and VIA's ancient PLE133 chipset is no speed demon either.

That's the point of the machines we're talking about here - even the slowest possible combination of today's stuff is still plenty fast enough for the classic tasks in home or office computing.

 

[rayster]

Originally posted by: Peter

Originally posted by: rayster
The Via C3's are descendents of totally integrated chips that Cyrix developed in the mid-late 90s to help drive themselves out of business. The average person needs a large screen Palm. They surf, read email, download porn and music and occasionally create a document or spreadsheet, all of which the relatively dinky processors in a Palm or a Pocket PC can do. But as someone who used to sell computers, once some yokel's brother tells him that he needs "at least 1 megahertz of memory and a 4 gig cdrom, plus a couple of hard drives" to run Word, you won't sell him anything that doesn't have near workstation specs on the side of the box (and I remember when "workstation" and "PC" were not equivalent). It might be different now that people bying multiple PCs. You might be able to sell them on the idea of a fast rig for games, the kids, productivity; and smaller, cheaper "task" computers elsewhere.

Wrong on the C3. When VIA bought Cyrix and Centaur, they did let the Cyrix team do a prototype run of their MIII which was a descendant of the standalone socket-7 MII. This was to be marketed as "VIA Cyrix III", and even made it to press release and sample shipments. Production yield was awful though, no cure in sight, VIA pissed the Cyrix team off, and most of them left and/or were released. The C3 as we know it is a descendant of the WinChip core designed by the Centaur team, with a very low instructions-per-clock rate (as opposed to the Cyrix chip) and an even worse floating point unit - but in turn very simple to manufacture and extremely low in power consumption.

Btw, not all of Cyrix was sold to VIA ... the mentioned "integrated" Cyrix core stayed with National Semiconductor, and still is alive and kicking, in new clothes as "Geode", in various versions for different types of appliances and computers.

Luckily my folks here trust me in giving them adequate gear for the task. Been using the ultra weak and ultra cheap 787CL with a couple of really budget constrained people. Does the job. Even though C3's ultra slow floating point unit has to manage the AMR modem too, and VIA's ancient PLE133 chipset is no speed demon either.

That's the point of the machines we're talking about here - even the slowest possible combination of today's stuff is still plenty fast enough for the classic tasks in home or office computing.

Correction appreciated. And good info on the Geode processors.

 

[capybara]

Originally posted by: CTho9305

Originally posted by: Peter
It's been done for quite a while, as usual by low end driving force PC-Chips, and they've been selling quite well.

M787CL - VIA C3 667 MHz, VIA PLE133 chipset
M810CL - AMD Duron 850, SiS 730S chipset
M810DCL - AMD Duron 1200, SiS 740 chipset

The concept is, use an existing microATX board design, get rid of the CPU socket, solder in a bargain CPU whose shelf life as a standalone part is nearing its end, minimize CPU power supply strength on the mainboard.

If a 300-400 MHz CPU is well fast enough for office use and internet browsing, who cares that you can't upgrade?

Are those systems much cheaper? Got any links?

Fry's advertised a via c3 733mhz system with all the hardware except a monitor for $199
last weekend.

 

[Shalmanese]

Doesnt Walmart have a $99 Linux PC?

 

[Peter]

Fry's advertised a via c3 733mhz system with all the hardware except a monitor for $199
last weekend.

Shall I take a guess about what mainboard is in there?

 

[majewski9]

I believe there is a Lindows C3 machine out there. I hope the next VIA processor will be able to compete with the big boys alittle better. Although I have always admired the C3 and believe it is a great cheap for simple processes.

 

[Peter]

Yes, all those cheap C3 boxes out there, at least those I saw, either use the 787CL board (667 or 733 MHz CPUs), or the new 787CL+ (SiS 630E chipset, thanks for finally ditching the ancient VIA PLE133), or VIA's own EPIA series boards - although the latter are substantially more expensive than PC-Chips's (mainly because they're even smaller and use the even lower power Eden series CPUs not standard C3).

 

[RobCur]

intergrated isn't such a bad ideas... a huge saving in production cost plus convenient but if one thing fail you have to replace the whole thing, the only downside.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Sometimes that's an upside, if something goes bad, there's very little troubleshooting time involved (replace the board)