Motherboard / AGP compatibility question

[fibes]

Hello,
I looking to upgrade my old system (850 MHZ/Shuttle mobo/PC 133 ram). The primary reason that I want to upgrade, is that my Shuttle AI61 is very unstable. In addition, I have a left over Nvidia MSI 64 meg MX440 8X AGP card that I would like to recycle. I would also like to recycle my PC 133 ram.

I have found a mobo that I think would be perfect, the MSI K7T TURBO2 KT133A SDRAM. I'm a big fan of MSI products, and I have found them to be very stable. This mobo also supports my PC 133 ram. However, the AGP slot is only 4X.

My question is, can I run my 8X AGP card on the K7T TURBO2? I have read a review by a consumer stating that this mobo will not support 8X AGP? I know my card has a very difficult time running on the 1st generation AGP, but I always thought my card would be at least backward compatible with 4X AGP. Being that this will be my secondary system, I do not to spend a ton of money on the upgrade. If I have to purchase another video card (that will be 4X compatible), I feel that extra expense will blow my budget. Any recommendations or advise?

Thanks!

I also want to mention my video card is DDR. Will DDR video cards work with this mobo?

 

[jackschmittusa]

An 8x card should run in a 4x slot. By saying that the mb won't run 8x, should mean that it won't run it at 8x is all.

 

[Peter]

You don't have to use the ancient KT133A chipset to recycle your SDR RAM. The chipset is old, and for the south bridge still being on the PCI bus there, is not a good performer.

Something a bit younger, like the SiS 735 chipset on the prime choice for SDR RAM recycling - the ECS K7S5A pro - gets you a lot more performance, and lets you move to DDR RAM without changing the mainboard again. There is a handful of other choices in the area "SDR+DDR RAM support on a halfway recent chipset", mainly with VIA KT266A chipset.

As for the original question, 8x AGP cards must, by definition, work in 4x mainboards.

 

[Mem]

the ECS K7S5A pro - gets you a lot more performance, and lets you move to DDR RAM without changing the mainboard again.

This is what I did when my MSI K7T Pro(VIA KT133) died,I replaced it with an ECS K7S5A Pro ,other features on the K7S5A Pro are USB 2.0 & onboard LAN,you can also upgrade the CPU to any 266mhz FSB based AMD socket A cpu(like the XP 2400+ ).

 

[fibes]

Originally posted by: Peter
You don't have to use the ancient KT133A chipset to recycle your SDR RAM. The chipset is old, and for the south bridge still being on the PCI bus there, is not a good performer.

Something a bit younger, like the SiS 735 chipset on the prime choice for SDR RAM recycling - the ECS K7S5A pro - gets you a lot more performance, and lets you move to DDR RAM without changing the mainboard again. There is a handful of other choices in the area "SDR+DDR RAM support on a halfway recent chipset", mainly with VIA KT266A chipset.

As for the original question, 8x AGP cards must, by definition, work in 4x mainboards.

Thanks for the advise. I will seriously consider a mobo with SDR + DDR support. The ECS K7S5A pro's attractive feature is it price. It sure fits my budget. However, I have read some consumer reviews. Some good and some bad. Has anyone had an negative experiences or drawbacks with this board? What's your view on a MSI KM2M Combo-L or the ASUS A7A266 ?

Thanks

 

[Peter]

A7A266. ALi chipset. Argh. Just. Don't.
The MSI "KM" board uses integrated graphics, good for a budget, bad for a performance upgrade path.

The ECS K7S5A is the best selling mainboard in PC history. You'll certainly find enough people who had problems with it in the dozens of millions (I'm not exaggerating!) of quietly happy users who never speak up.

 

[jjyiz28]

Originally posted by: fibes

Originally posted by: Peter
You don't have to use the ancient KT133A chipset to recycle your SDR RAM. The chipset is old, and for the south bridge still being on the PCI bus there, is not a good performer.

Something a bit younger, like the SiS 735 chipset on the prime choice for SDR RAM recycling - the ECS K7S5A pro - gets you a lot more performance, and lets you move to DDR RAM without changing the mainboard again. There is a handful of other choices in the area "SDR+DDR RAM support on a halfway recent chipset", mainly with VIA KT266A chipset.

As for the original question, 8x AGP cards must, by definition, work in 4x mainboards.

Thanks for the advise. I will seriously consider a mobo with SDR + DDR support. The ECS K7S5A pro's attractive feature is it price. It sure fits my budget. However, I have read some consumer reviews. Some good and some bad. Has anyone had an negative experiences or drawbacks with this board? What's your view on a MSI KM2M Combo-L or the ASUS A7A266 ?

Thanks

my main rig is the msi km2m (km266), stable, it works. can't O/c cuz its stuck at 133 bus, and any higher and ur pci/agp chokes up. running 2 sticks of 512mb sdram. i tested with 512 of ddr, and the only diff i felt was when i switched between apps, very very slight lag i felt. but in games really no diff i felt.
avoid biostar like the plague. forgot ecs too. too much gamble. yea, im sure after the 3rd exchange it *might* work flawlessly, why take the chance on crappy companies.

 

[Mem]

My personal experience with the ECS K7S5A Pro has so far been excellent,booted first time after installation,XP install went smooth and I even updated the ECS BIOS with no problems,for the price you`ll be hard to find a better board that`s for sure.Just remember it`s not an overclocking board and the BIOS options are very limit,however for a board replacement at the price you can`t go wrong.

 

[fibes]

Thanks again for the advise. I have another question. Since I'm replacing the mobo with a new processor (anything from an XP 1700 to XP 2400, haven't decided yet), should I also upgrade my old 200W PSU? It's been pretty reliable so far. Like stated in the above thread, I plan to recycle my 2 sticks of 256MB SDRAM and my 64MB MX440 8X DDR video card. Along with that, I will recycle my CDRW and 2 physical harddrives. I also plan to add (2) 80mm case fans for exhaust.

 

[jjyiz28]

the MSI km2m combo-L requires a 4pin 12v connector on the mobo. if your psu has it koo, use it. if you start getting flaky operation, replace psu. hopefully that 200watt is brand name?

 

[Peter]

You're definitely in for a new power supply. Choose a quality (!) 350W supply, or above.

You don't need that many fans, particularly not exhaust fans. What you need is an intake fan in the lower front, to get a defined air path over the board and CPU and back out through the PSU fan. That'll do.

One ALWAYS needs to have stronger intake fans than exhaust fans, else the machine will start sucking air and dust in through every gap there is, particularly your floppy and CD/DVD drives. Not good.

 

[alexruiz]

I can vouch that the ECS K7S5A is a really good mobo..... That is what I had before, and NEVER had any problem of compatibility or stability..... I have had 2 or 3 compatibility/stability problems with my NForce 2 based biostar...... go figure.

Get the K7S5A

 

[Mem]

Choose a quality (!) 350W supply, or above.

I have to agree with Peter,go for brands like Antec,Enermax,Sparkle,Enhance etc and you`ll be on the right track.

 

[jjyiz28]

Originally posted by: Peter
You're definitely in for a new power supply. Choose a quality (!) 350W supply, or above.

You don't need that many fans, particularly not exhaust fans. What you need is an intake fan in the lower front, to get a defined air path over the board and CPU and back out through the PSU fan. That'll do.

One ALWAYS needs to have stronger intake fans than exhaust fans, else the machine will start sucking air and dust in through every gap there is, particularly your floppy and CD/DVD drives. Not good.

its more important to remove the hot air, rather than getting in cool air. exhaust is more important than intake. and it will suck in air in every gap, that is why you cover up your pc, and cover up the blank slots on the back, and the front.

 

[Peter]

Study the topic.

More exhaust fans help zip as soon as those you already have start creating a vacuum in the box. Properly designed systems with high airflow sustain a slight overpressure inside the ventilated space. This is done by keeping the air intake ratio above the air exhaust ratio - impossible if you only have exhaust fans.

The benefit is that the insides of your optical and other removable media drives don't dust up - and to keep the machine even more clean, you can put a serviceable filter in front of the intake fan. That way, surfaces inside the machine don't clog with dust anymore either; most susceptible to that are the CPU heatsink and the insides of the power supply unit.

So, after the exhaust fan you already have in the PSU, you add an intake fan of about the same throughput as that PSU fan. In an ATX box, it has to go onto the lower front, as I already said.

 

[jjyiz28]

Originally posted by: Peter
Study the topic.

More exhaust fans help zip as soon as those you already have start creating a vacuum in the box. Properly designed systems with high airflow sustain a slight overpressure inside the ventilated space. This is done by keeping the air intake ratio above the air exhaust ratio - impossible if you only have exhaust fans.

The benefit is that the insides of your optical and other removable media drives don't dust up - and to keep the machine even more clean, you can put a serviceable filter in front of the intake fan. That way, surfaces inside the machine don't clog with dust anymore either; most susceptible to that are the CPU heatsink and the insides of the power supply unit.

So, after the exhaust fan you already have in the PSU, you add an intake fan of about the same throughput as that PSU fan. In an ATX box, it has to go onto the lower front, as I already said.

look, i understand what you're saying about positive pressure in case, and therefore dust getting in.
but getting rid off hot air is more important than bringing in colder air from outside.
if i had a choice between having 1 exhaust in back, or 1 intake in the front, i'd go for first option. nothing wrong with having 2 exhausts in back, and no intake. nothing wrong with 2 exhaust in back, 1 intake in front. but its not effective if you have 1,2 intake in front but no exhaust (except psu) in back.

run temperature tests, you will see.
run temp tests on a case with only 1 exhasut in back, and run another with only 1 intake in front. the case with the exhaust will run cooler. yeah, it will build up dust over time, but its not like its gonna be a dustball in like 1 month. just clean your case every 6-12 months for small buidlup and ull be fine

 

[fibes]

What about an intake fan on the side of the case? I understand the most important locations in placing fans are 1 in front(intake) and 1 in the rear(exhaust), but what about the side of the case? Isn't it also important to cool off the components inside the case? I have a fan on the side of my case and it actually has some function. I have seen my temps drop from between 1c-3c. Not earthshaking results, but every little bit helps.

 

[Peter]

Intake fan in the side panel, Bottom left front, is just as OK. It's just that those flimsy side panels tend to resonate and vibrate with the fan.

The airflow in an ATX case is supposed to travel from front bottom to rear top. Everything's designed to cope with this; components that need more airflow must be designed to have their own fans - as seen on CPUs, graphics cards and some chipsets.

 

[Peter]

jjyiz, sorry, you have no clue. We here DESIGN these things for a living, y'know ... for industrial grade solutions that run at AMBIENT temperatures up to 70 degrees. Celsius.

Just one more food for thought: You cannot exhaust more air than goes into the box. No matter how many exhaust fans you add. And the bigger the suction force inside the case, the more air will be inhaled through unwanted spots, rather than through the intended path of airflow.

I guess Intel are just as clueless as we are for adding an INTAKE fan in their new BTX system specification ...

 

[fibes]

Originally posted by: Peter
jjyiz, sorry, you have no clue. We here DESIGN these things for a living, y'know ... for industrial grade solutions that run at AMBIENT temperatures up to 70 degrees. Celsius.

Just one more food for thought: You cannot exhaust more air than goes into the box. No matter how many exhaust fans you add. And the bigger the suction force inside the case, the more air will be inhaled through unwanted spots, rather than through the intended path of airflow.

I guess Intel are just as clueless as we are for adding an INTAKE fan in their new BTX system specification ...

So, Let me get this straight. If install a more powerful fan in the front of my case ( i.e. 50 c.f.m. vs. 32 c.f.m.), the airflow path will be greater, thus allowing more hot air to be forced out of case?

 

[fibes]

Originally posted by: Peter
jjyiz, sorry, you have no clue. We here DESIGN these things for a living, y'know ... for industrial grade solutions that run at AMBIENT temperatures up to 70 degrees. Celsius.

Just one more food for thought: You cannot exhaust more air than goes into the box. No matter how many exhaust fans you add. And the bigger the suction force inside the case, the more air will be inhaled through unwanted spots, rather than through the intended path of airflow.

I guess Intel are just as clueless as we are for adding an INTAKE fan in their new BTX system specification ...

So, Let me get this straight. If install a more powerful fan in the front of my case ( i.e. 50 c.f.m. vs. 32 c.f.m.), the airflow path will be greater, thus allowing more hot air to be forced out of case?

 

[jjyiz28]

Originally posted by: Peter
jjyiz, sorry, you have no clue. We here DESIGN these things for a living, y'know ... for industrial grade solutions that run at AMBIENT temperatures up to 70 degrees. Celsius.

Just one more food for thought: You cannot exhaust more air than goes into the box. No matter how many exhaust fans you add. And the bigger the suction force inside the case, the more air will be inhaled through unwanted spots, rather than through the intended path of airflow.

I guess Intel are just as clueless as we are for adding an INTAKE fan in their new BTX system specification ...

that is the small price for having more exhaust than intake. thats why for proper maintence, you want all your slots to be covered to minimize this inhaling of air to just small cracks. cover the case, cover your front and back panels slots. you make it sound like the inside of pc will be covered in 1 inch of dust in a matter of weeks.

intel didn't add intake fan to anything, they just switched the board 90 degrees. the cpu is at the front with an intake fan, but there is still the back of the case with space for exhaust fans correct?? just like atx except now the cpu is closer to intake, instead of at exhaust. and the psu i understand will still exhaust hot air out, rather than suck cold air in right??

i have a question, do you run your all your case fans, including the back ones as intake??

 

[jjyiz28]

Originally posted by: fibes

Originally posted by: Peter
jjyiz, sorry, you have no clue. We here DESIGN these things for a living, y'know ... for industrial grade solutions that run at AMBIENT temperatures up to 70 degrees. Celsius.

Just one more food for thought: You cannot exhaust more air than goes into the box. No matter how many exhaust fans you add. And the bigger the suction force inside the case, the more air will be inhaled through unwanted spots, rather than through the intended path of airflow.

I guess Intel are just as clueless as we are for adding an INTAKE fan in their new BTX system specification ...

So, Let me get this straight. If install a more powerful fan in the front of my case ( i.e. 50 c.f.m. vs. 32 c.f.m.), the airflow path will be greater, thus allowing more hot air to be forced out of case?

yes of course, that is true. just like if install a more powerful exhaust fan at back, more hot air will be taken out, while allowing cooler air to be sucked in in cracks.

the inside of your case will never run cooler than the temp of your room. its much harder to cool hot air with outside air, but much easier to just exhaust hot air out to cool case. ie) your case will be cooler running 2 exhaust at back/1intake front, rather than 2 intakes front/1 exhaust back.

 

[Peter]

So, Let me get this straight. If install a more powerful fan in the front of my case ( i.e. 50 c.f.m. vs. 32 c.f.m.), the airflow path will be greater, thus allowing more hot air to be forced out of case?

Your exhaust fan will be more effective because it won't have to sustain a vacuum, and you'll have most of the intake air go into the case where it's supposed to come from. The difference in throughput need not be that big, though. Mind the effective throughput of the mounted fan - this will be less than the fan's own theoretical value, simply because of the obstruction from protective mesh and/or dust filter material (if any).

 

[Peter]

its much harder to cool hot air with outside air, but much easier to just exhaust hot air out to cool case.

Now that's creative physics. I'll have to show this to our case designers.