Most efficient use of radiator space?

[SexyK]

Okay working on my first full custom water loop. Couple of questions for the old pros here.

First, what is the most effective use of "thickness" for a radiator? For example, assuming each fan is 25mm thick and you have 80mm of space to work with, are you better off with a push-only configuration and a 55mm radiator, or a slim line 30mm radiator in push-pull?

Also, if you have a choice between a 240 in push-pull, or a 360 in push-only, what effectively dissipates more heat (assuming the radiators will be the same thickness)?

I want to make the most of the space I have to work with -thanks for any tips you can offer.

 

[BrightCandle]

A guy at extremesystems did a wonderful test of a lot of the options:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?220874-More-Radiator-Sandwich-testing

In summary push/pull is slightly better at 800rpm (1C) and only slightly better (0.5C) at 1200rpm. Just bare in mind its also more expensive.

 

[smackababy]

Also, if you have a choice between a 240 in push-pull, or a 360 in push-only, what effectively dissipates more heat (assuming the radiators will be the same thickness)?

I want to make the most of the space I have to work with -thanks for any tips you can offer.

For this question, the only set up that would allow a 240 to dissipate more heat is if the 360 is fanless.

 

[SexyK]

For this question, the only set up that would allow a 240 to dissipate more heat is if the 360 is fanless.

That makes sense to me, particularly after checking out the post linked by BrightCandle above showing the relatively modest increase in performance that push-pull offers.

I'm still scratching my head a bit on the question of "thick" 240 w/ push only vs. "thinner" 240 with push/pull, though. It seems to me that to get the most benefit out of some of these thicker rads you really need to have push/pull otherwise you can't force enough air through them. Of course, that setup requires a lot more space.

Also, last question for the time being: it seems to me the traditional setup is to have rad fans pushing warmed air out of the case, but that's also somewhat counter intuitive since the air outside the case is likely much cooler than the air inside. So, should the fans suck in outside air over the rads into the case, or vice versa?

 

[smackababy]

I don't think the traditional setup is pushing air out of the case. In most setups, you will have cool air coming in, onto the radiator. That will be the most efficient in cooling the water, but it does come with a side effect: the air being pulled into your case and put on components will be warmer.

I haven't used any of the super thick radiators, but using my PA120.3s and GTs, I have been pleased with my deltas. I don't think I would benefit much from push / pull. But, I also run a lot more radiator than I "require".

 

[Aikouka]

I'm still scratching my head a bit on the question of "thick" 240 w/ push only vs. "thinner" 240 with push/pull, though. It seems to me that to get the most benefit out of some of these thicker rads you really need to have push/pull otherwise you can't force enough air through them. Of course, that setup requires a lot more space.

Not all radiators are created equal. Sometimes, the advantage of a thicker radiator is that it can get away with a lower fin density (FPI) while effectively providing the same cooling potential as a thinner, higher-density radiator, but at lower fan speeds.

 

[aigomorla]

thinner rads have a considerable more amount of restriction.

Also u really cant cross compare thin vs thick rads from different makers as thin rads are mostly smaller FPI (fins per inch) would have better scaling as well due to more fins with higher static (push / pull) fans.

vs a thick rad which is usually lower FPI, but is built that way because its meant for low static quieter fans.
Then there is a GTX which kills most rads out there... a thick rad with high FPI, which was only designed on fans which made u deaf.

 

[SexyK]

Thanks for all of the great info guys. Sounds like in general you can get similar performance and less noise with a thicker, lower FPI radiator assuming other factors are the same.

Going to take some measurements and see what I'm working with then I'll probably have some more questions/requests for recommendations.

Any tips on what brands/models I should be looking at if cost (within reason) is not an issue?

 

[smackababy]

I would recommend Gentle Typhoons and the newer models for fans. They are a bit more expensive, but ever so worth it. As far as other parts, just research what you're looking for and make sure all the parts mesh together.

Oh, and always go with 1/2 ID 3/4 OD tubing. That is what men do!

 

[Aikouka]

Oh, and always go with 1/2 ID 3/4 OD tubing. That is what men do!

What about us 3/8 x 5/8 users?

 

[BrightCandle]

There is barely any performance benefit to 1/2" verses 10/8. People choose it for the looks despite its increased difficulties. Most components are designed with 1/2" flow in mind but that doesn't really matter very much.

 

[SexyK]

Oh, and always go with 1/2 ID 3/4 OD tubing. That is what men do!

What about us 3/8 x 5/8 users?

Man, I already have 10ft of 3/8 x 5/8 tubing, but now my manhood is in question. Ha!

 

[SexyK]

Anyone have any experience with the Alphacool XT45 or ST30 lines of full-copper radiators? Seems like these may be decent options given my space restraints. It appears they are pretty solid at lower fan speeds which is a plus.

Have heard some negative talk about XSPC lately and it looks like Phobya specializes in super-thick variants. What about the EK models? Anything else I should be looking at in this general size category? I think the super thick 60-80mm rads are out of the question.

 

[Aikouka]

I use XSPC radiators, but mine are AX models instead of EX or RX. I went with them because they were thinner (40mm) but a few benchmarks that I found online showed them to be pretty good.

 

[smackababy]

EK had some machining issues on their blocks a bit ago, so I try and avoid them (mostly because they wouldn't even acknowledge it when I tried to contact them). Personally, if I was going to change from my Thermochill PA120.3s I'd go with a Watercool (who also make my GPU blocks).

I think you're be okay with any of the main vendors now days. They should all be very similar in performance.

 

[BrightCandle]

The quality of EKs goods is pretty questionable. They have shipped GPU blocks that destroyed cards and then covered it up, they have had issues with radiators and again failed to acknowledge the fault was theirs. They are disreputable company and you should avoid their products.

See if you can find any Swiftech MCR's around. They perform almost like thick radiators but may well be thin enough for your needs.

 

[Aikouka]

The quality of EKs goods is pretty questionable. They have shipped GPU blocks that destroyed cards and then covered it up, they have had issues with radiators and again failed to acknowledge the fault was theirs. They are disreputable company and you should avoid their products.

Reading that kind of makes me wish I didn't purchase one of their tops! At least it hasn't given me any trouble yet... I think.

 

[aigomorla]

The quality of EKs goods is pretty questionable. They have shipped GPU blocks that destroyed cards and then covered it up, they have had issues with radiators and again failed to acknowledge the fault was theirs. They are disreputable company and you should avoid their products.

See if you can find any Swiftech MCR's around. They perform almost like thick radiators but may well be thin enough for your needs.

oh god there doing this again?

u know it was me that made standoff's on videocards a manditory process right?
eK's response at the time was... standoff's are for newbies... the advance watercooler knows when to stop...
U should of seen the face palms on XS from that statement...
They did later on admit tho, that standoff's are "safety" features and will be implemented on future blocks...


Anyhow OP a Radiator must:
1. Meet size requirements... (if it doesnt fit.. dont look at it.. its gonna be HELL making it fit..)
2. Function... (noise/performance)
3. BLING... (no one said u had to sacrifice bling)

.. here is my radiator collection inside my PC on my Tri loop system.

the front is a thick radiator... also my quiet one because the noise shoots out the front.
Hence why i wanted something less screaming up front...

The rear are swiftech (medium) thickness.... u see i have 2... i have strong static fans which are on videocard PWM sense line.
Meaning as my videocards load... and they do load to 100% during gaming... my fans also RAMP up loud... but when i have things blowing up who cares about fan noise... its more ambiance!!!

Then XSPC has always made GREAT radiators as well. This is the RX...
Originally for me... ended up selling to friend to use at Lan Parties with her SFF.
But thick single rad... with GT's kept her video cards nice and cool.... she didnt watercool the CPU.
With a Full Cover block on both her Video Cards pulling most of the heat out of the case... the Air sink had no difficulties keeping her CPU in check in a SFF.

OH to end my post... once upon a time.. when watercooling was still in the infant stage... people played with thin rads..

they are VERY restrictive... Require VERY STRONG fans... which makes the project VERY LOUD... to get good performance.
Also a very good candidate in redundant pump systems where you actually see a difference...

I also HIGHLY recommend u guys impliment Quick Disconnects in your system.

Especially with the GPU... u have no idea how many GPU swaps i have done and how many hours i saved because i had QDC's
Example... This makes it easy for me remove something which has QDC without draining my entire loop.

Then i just need to reattach QDC.... run the system again... and ADD coolant... to get back on live.
If i have a bad gpu... i COUPLE the QDC's to each other using a Coupler. Run my system without downtime on air GPU while i get a replacement.
Get replacement... reattach block + QDC and my system wasnt down in the service time.

I see the increase in people wanting to high end water... yet i cringe each time QDC's arent mentioned in the build...
They seriously are a time saver... and if u get the correct one, they are very worth it with almost nil performance impact.

 

[SexyK]

Just wanted to post an update and give a peek at the (nearly) finished build. Ended up getting a great deal on EK CPU and Titan blocks so despite the words or warning I went that direction. So far, so good - no complaints about performance, build quality or aesthetics at this point.

Radiators are one Alphacool NexXxoS XT45 240mm and one NexXxoS ST30 360mm (hard to see the 360 in this shot, but its vertical in the front panel of the case).

I'll post more shots later if anyone is interested. Thanks for all the tips.

 

[aigomorla]

looks very clean and simple.

Did u make sure u rock your PC a bit to see if u had any bubbles stuck in your rad?

Top mounted rads with barbs pointing down => tough to bleed... because once the bubble is stuck up there... the only way pushing it out is rocking your case.