News Mosque shooting in Christchurch, New Zealand - At least 49 dead

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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Yes.
In case you've been asleep for the last couple of thousand years, the God of the world, has always been a blood God. Even before the crucifixion of Christ, you can't read more than 10 chapters in the Old Testament, without finding some evidence of blood sacrifice.

Abraham was told to sacrifice his son on a rock. Lambs were sacrificed, as a penance for sins, and atonement, along with goats, and oxen. Lambs were sacrificed, and their blood spread over the lentil of the door of every Jewish slave, so that the Angel of Death would pass over their home when the firstborn of Egypt were struck down.

It's nothing new for the God of many religions to demand a blood sacrifice in His name.

What's Trump's excuse?

Any other questions?

Okay, so Isis are followers of Islam, and kill in the name of Allah. Christians kill in the name of God. What does that do to further any solutions? Its not the idol that is the problem here, its the underlying motivations. Religion plays a role, but, not the idol themselves.

I say this as an Atheist.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Hate crimes went up almost 20% after Trump was elected. A lot of this would have been in remission absent Trump

Please don't ignore that hate crimes were trending up before him as well. Do not make the mistake that Trump is the big problem here. If you do, then you will focus too much on removing him, and not the underlying problem of hate that is around the world.

As we had discussed before, hate crimes globally were on the rise before Trump. That trend was in the US as well. It would be silly to think that Turmp was having an effect before he was even running, never mind an effect globally.

Hate crimes have a higher correlation with the mass immigration into Europe if anything.
 
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Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,264
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It's totally real and totally something Fraser Anning would say. This is the same guy that referenced a 'final solution' to immigration in a speech to the senate.

"I say in my talks it takes two things to make it happen again, a new Hitler and social conditions like in the thirties. But that's not true. It takes three things: the Hitler, the conditions... and the people to follow the Hitler." -- Ira Levin

1552659843414.jpeg
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,008
8,041
136
Trump isn't a symptom of the problem he has become it's idol. That should make you pause.

The use of scapegoats, the broad generalizations of other people, those are human psychological and sociological responses. Aside from the dangerous actions it risks perpetrating, the fact is those are normal expected human responses. For the American version, September 11th, and war on terror. Muslims became the enemy, just ask the public. Economy suffers, income inequality rages, and more "others" are blamed. Humans are still apes. Ape smash. It's what we do.

We try and find unity in peaceful times. These are not those times. We are growing our own divisions with a bitter divisiveness. We do not speak to others in ways that can help walk them off of ledges. In fact some of us push them into taking that leap. Of descending into madness and despair. Of closing off their humanity and giving in to primal instinct. Ape smash. And so they do.

Trump is accused of being one of pushes them off the ledge. I get it, with his narcissism he has ZERO capacity for real human connection. To understand right from wrong in the tone or style of his actions or responses. That ignorance was on display with his "fine guys" comment. but it was in reference to third parties, not violent combatants. We literally say the same thing. Not all Muslims are terrorists. We try to tell people to calm down when the shoe is on the other foot. When a Muslim man is responsible. It's a call for calm, for peace. Because there are more people on this planet than just the violent perpetrators or even those who support them. Not all Muslims are terrorists. Not all Southerners are racists.

Yet his comment was misused as propaganda. I mean, the baby President was literally spoon fed (via Fox News) the story that Southerners were rallying for their history. He had no idea the true nature of the rally, nor was he speaking of those directly involved in violence or hate. Yet opponents saw an opportunity to smash. And so they did. However, in that zeal to crush an opponent you also polarize people who did not share you view. It is understandable, because in times of stress we compartmentalize things. We generalize and misconstrue. Muslim = Terrorist. Southerner = Nazi. Trump = Evil.

But it's a similar, if not the exact same, fallacy used by today's killer. To generalize a group. To claim them as "other". To hate on them all, rather than the actual perpetrators. To condemn speech when they do not chiefly identify as belonging to your tribe. Heaven forbid they are ignorant or different in any way. Or that they feel threatened and express it. Many people have personal failings. Not all of them are evil, or act in violence. Trump is not fit to be President, but that does not make him evil or directly supportive of the violence today. Please remember such distinctions.

But what, exactly, are we to do when faced with such differences? Evil people, true evil such as today's shooter. He wants to push others off the ledge. From fear into madness. From speech into violence. He sought no peace nor understanding. He did not seek to live with his opponents. He wants others drawn into his violence. He wants to spread hatred and terror. Ape smash, and so he did. It should not be our response to see a Muslim as a terrorist. Or a White man as this shooter. Such stereotypes and generalizations only fuel the cycle of violence. Our responses DO affect people. It takes some effort not to be the primitive apes that we are. To not be afraid, to not see a threat and paint others with it. To not want to act against "them".

How we act is very important. These are times of stress and fear. People are at risk of giving in to their worse instincts. If you want to protect yourself, then stop and think. The ape response is to smash. We know what that looks like all too well. What does it mean NOT to smash? What does it mean to live together with people who are different, who may even be afraid of you? How do you bridge that gap and come together to form a peaceful nation? How do you find a peaceful coexistence with those who might even celebrate today's massacre?

It is not enough to simply condemn violence. We must study the path towards it. We must recognize it. We must plot against it. We must act in ways that avoid violence, and help others to avoid it as well. Trump has no capacity to benefit us in that regard, but we need to do better than just pointing fingers or condemning "white right wing terrorists". We need to find and appeal to a common ground, to find a common humanity. We need to invite as many people as we can to join us in our cause. For a united effort. For only when we have brought enough people together can we make an impact.

How do we walk people down from the ledge, and into a peaceful society, rather than just push them off into further madness and despair? The situation needs to be addressed. And while pointing fingers may have its uses, we first have to identify a correct course of action and lead by example. To do the right thing and help teach others what that is. How to help others cope with their worse instincts by appealing to their better instincts. This is, by and large a fight for the human soul. Whether we are worthy of life on this blue planet. Whether we can find a way to unite people, before madness clouds our vision and our collective chance for survival.

Sure, we could "ape smash" against a given target today. We can copy that mistake very well. The trick is to not smash. Learn it, define it, teach it.
 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
30,031
45,270
136
Please tell me this is not real, right? RIGHT? I don't care where he is, his color or language there is no place for this kind of BS in the world. This is 2019, to quote Bill Pullman "We can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore"
it's real and that's some of the milder stuff he's posted
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,136
30,086
146
God help us all. The slaughter of innocents shakes everything, and calculatedly for political purposes. I truly don't understand what informs such hatred.

It's pretty obvious.

Have you ever seen Trump or his fans open their yaps?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,136
30,086
146
The 74-page dossier by Brenton Tarrant, which has been described by Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison as a "work of hate", praised Trump as "a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose".

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...100143150.html

dude, we're not allowed to talk about Trump, because this has nothing to do with Trump. racism existed before Trump, therefore why ever care what Trump has ever said? His words have no meaning.

...according to proud Trump-humpers, anyway.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
It's pretty obvious.

Have you ever seen Trump or his fans open their yaps?

Yes, many times, but that's not my point. My point is that I've never understood people who seriously believe in white supremacy. I don't understand how these people can be so devoid of meaning in their lives that they latch on to such things.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,735
28,908
136
Again though, birtherism was not started by him. That was something invented by ironically people on the Left to stop Obama and Trump ran with it. Its a great example of what I am talking about.

Trump is great at taking something and using it as his own to move his agenda forward.

What I would say is that while Trump is a big name in stoking this fire, he is not the majority cause. Ultimately, if he were gone, we would see little change. The world is just angry right now.
WRONG. Birtherism was invented by Jerome Corsi a Roger Stone former colleague. I started a thread where he admits it.

He may or may not be the majority cause but the position of POTUS gives one the ability to effect lowering the heat on this and tamping it down. Trump has done nothing to help therefore be becomes the majority problem.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
WRONG. Birtherism was invented by Jerome Corsi a Roger Stone former colleague. I started a thread where he admits it.

He may or may not be the majority cause but the position of POTUS gives one the ability to effect lowering the heat on this and tamping it down. Trump has done nothing to help therefore be becomes the majority problem.

What do you think he should do?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
WRONG. Birtherism was invented by Jerome Corsi a Roger Stone former colleague. I started a thread where he admits it.

He may or may not be the majority cause but the position of POTUS gives one the ability to effect lowering the heat on this and tamping it down. Trump has done nothing to help therefore be becomes the majority problem.

You are going to have to support that, because from what I know his book came out in 2011, well after all that garbage started.

Also, your logic that because Trump has done nothing to help that he became the majority of the problem is absurd. Maybe you meant to say something else?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Are you okay? I'm not sure how Trump gets lumped into this mess. You are as hateful as any group you are pointing your finger at. Probably time to step away from your electronic devices. Seriously.
You're right, the perpetrators were obviously very fine people.
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,264
3,840
136
Yes, many times, but that's not my point. My point is that I've never understood people who seriously believe in white supremacy. I don't understand how these people can be so devoid of meaning in their lives that they latch on to such things.

Well... It's kinda like this.
1552662333967.jpeg
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,735
28,908
136
Trump is accused of being one of pushes them off the ledge. I get it, with his narcissism he has ZERO capacity for real human connection. To understand right from wrong in the tone or style of his actions or responses. That ignorance was on display with his "fine guys" comment. but it was in reference to third parties, not violent combatants. We literally say the same thing. Not all Muslims are terrorists. We try to tell people to calm down when the shoe is on the other foot. When a Muslim man is responsible. It's a call for calm, for peace. Because there are more people on this planet than just the violent perpetrators or even those who support them. Not all Muslims are terrorists. Not all Southerners are racists.

Yet his comment was misused as propaganda. I mean, the baby President was literally spoon fed (via Fox News) the story that Southerners were rallying for their history. He had no idea the true nature of the rally, nor was he speaking of those directly involved in violence or hate. Yet opponents saw an opportunity to smash. And so they did. However, in that zeal to crush an opponent you also polarize people who did not share you view. It is understandable, because in times of stress we compartmentalize things. We generalize and misconstrue. Muslim = Terrorist. Southerner = Nazi. Trump = Evil.
Wow you just justified Trump's obvious excusing of racism and hate. Anyone watching the footage heard the tiki marchers chant "Jews will not replace us" and "blood and soil". They were not chanting "save our monuments" My dumbass knew this from watching the coverage. POTUS has access to the best intelligence in the world and you are claiming he didn't know???

Trump used the phrase "very fine people" knowing those marchers represent a large part of his base and he didn't want to piss them off.

Now if you want to stick to your Trump ignorance, remember he read a statement like a hostage denouncing hate. Then days later in a fit of rage took back the statement saying I should not have read that.

In his position giving aid and comfort to white supremacists makes you one of them
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Are you joking? He literally banned Muslims. His own fucking words. Christ almighty.
Maybe New Zealand needs to ban white people from entering the country until they can figure out what's going on.

Just a disclaimer: that is sarcasm.

Trump didn't create racism and religious intolerance, obviously, but he fanned those flames and then rode the updraft into the Office of the President. He spread the lie of birtherism, knowing it was a lie. He spread the lie of Muslims in NYC or NJ cheering on 9/11, knowing it was a lie. He emboldened racism and bigotry and white supremacy, and gave them a safe space in the White House.
And now that the inevitable consequences of that have occurred - again - his water carriers are here to defend him - again.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,008
8,041
136
Yes, many times, but that's not my point. My point is that I've never understood people who seriously believe in white supremacy. I don't understand how these people can be so devoid of meaning in their lives that they latch on to such things.

I never understood how people could commit suicide either.

Fact is, you do not know the life of pain they lived. It leads to many horrific reactions.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,636
8,522
136
Muslim ban?
American Muslim registry?
invaders?
Calling Charlottesville Nazis very fine people?
Killer confirmed himself Trump is good for racists.

Not forgetting 'fine German blood', 'humans akin to racehorses' and his past record on the Central Park rape case.

He's clearly a racist, even if that can get a bit lost amid all his multiple other dysfunctions.

I believe he's not quite an ideal white supremacist insofar as his allegiance to some idea of a 'white race' ultimately takes second place to his commitment to Donald Trump. I am sure all his other prejudices are trumped by his narcissism.
 
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