News Mosque shooting in Christchurch, New Zealand - At least 49 dead

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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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898
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I agree somewhat. However, the shooter didn't develop his ideology in isolation. When the president of the united states espouses racism it doesn't fall on deaf ears. Some call him out on his racism and others use it to bolster their own racist beliefs.

The world was going crazy before Trump. Trump is far more of a symptom than a cause here.

Racism existed before Trump, and will be here after.
Nationalism existed before Trump, and will be here after.
Right-wing extremists existed before Trump, and will be here after.

Trump did not develop his ideology in isolation.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
If someone says they're doing something in your honor, it's ok for you to believe them. Whether you want them to or not, you still carry some of the blood on your hands.

So, does every god that had people kill in their name carry blood on their hands?
 
Jan 25, 2011
16,699
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Jesus some of you guys who can't stop posting about how much you dislike Trump is just as bad as the MAGA people who can't see him doing anything wrong.

And you can't even keep it out of this fucking thread.
So we should just ignore the fact that he keeps being mentioned by name or that these people use, word for word, the same rhetoric he does every fucking time it happens?

Mail bomber? Trumps face literally plastered everywhere. Synagogue shooter? Jews were helping the migrant caravans. The invaders. You know, the ones Trump was ranting about extensively and... what was he calling them again... oh right invaders. Charlottesville? Jews will not replace us. Trump: Some very fine people on both sides.

You can't ignore his place in this
 
Jan 25, 2011
16,699
8,909
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The world was going crazy before Trump. Trump is far more of a symptom than a cause here.

Racism existed before Trump, and will be here after.
Nationalism existed before Trump, and will be here after.
Right-wing extremists existed before Trump, and will be here after.

Trump did not develop his ideology in isolation.
Trump isn't a symptom of the problem he has become it's idol. That should make you pause.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Trump isn't a symptom of the problem he has become it's idol. That should make you pause.

Why should it make me pause? When Osama became the idol of Islamic terrorism, and was then killed, what changed?

Removing the idols of a movement often does not stop the movement.
 

twjr

Senior member
Jul 5, 2006
627
207
116
The world was going crazy before Trump. Trump is far more of a symptom than a cause here.

Racism existed before Trump, and will be here after.
Nationalism existed before Trump, and will be here after.
Right-wing extremists existed before Trump, and will be here after.

Trump did not develop his ideology in isolation.
Agree on some aspects. Yes, racism, nationalism and right-wing extremism existed before Trump and will continue after him. However, and despite his best efforts, Trump holds one of the most powerful and influential positions in the western world. What he says matters. He doesn't have to amplify and validate those ideologies but he chooses to and thus gives them more weight.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,735
28,908
136
The world was going crazy before Trump. Trump is far more of a symptom than a cause here.

Racism existed before Trump, and will be here after.
Nationalism existed before Trump, and will be here after.
Right-wing extremists existed before Trump, and will be here after.

Trump did not develop his ideology in isolation.
No shit but ask yourself.

Has Trump helped tamp it down or inflame it?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Agree on some aspects. Yes, racism, nationalism and right-wing extremism existed before Trump and will continue after him. However, and despite his best efforts, Trump holds one of the most powerful and influential positions in the western world. What he says matters. He doesn't have to amplify and validate those ideologies but he chooses to and thus gives them more weight.

Your however point does not conflict with what I said. My point is that, while Trump has made things worse, the extremest were building before him.

Look at Europe. It was turning to the Right before Trump even started his campaign. The roots of Brexit were developed before him. You had the Philippines turning to an extremest who was openly murdering people without due process. You had Brazil shift to the Right.

Not only is the shift happening in the US, but, it was happening all over the world. The echo chamber of hate was and is global.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,654
26,755
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It would have been easier to obtain the weapons in New Zealand. Semi-automatics were banned in Australia following the Port Arthur Massacre and the government implemented a pretty effective amnesty.

In his manifesto he says he didn't initially choose New Zealand. I suspect he saw it as a soft target.

Yeah, I can see that. Sounds like the ban in Australia is achieving its goal.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
God help us all. The slaughter of innocents shakes everything, and calculatedly for political purposes. I truly don't understand what informs such hatred.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
As sickening as it is, sadly there will be copy cats thinking this is a game and this is a way to stream on twitch.

I hope I'm wrong but I keep losing faith in humanity.
How about you condemn the gunman and the tiny few who believe as he does and keep your faith in humanity. Celebrate the good and stand against the evil.
 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
How about you condemn the gunman and the tiny few who believe as he does and keep your faith in humanity. Celebrate the good and stand against the evil.

I disagree. There are things worth having faith in, and humanity is not among them.
 

twjr

Senior member
Jul 5, 2006
627
207
116
I
Your however point does not conflict with what I said. My point is that, while Trump has made things worse, the extremest were building before him.

Look at Europe. It was turning to the Right before Trump even started his campaign. The roots of Brexit were developed before him. You had the Philippines turning to an extremest who was openly murdering people without due process. You had Brazil shift to the Right.

Not only is the shift happening in the US, but, it was happening all over the world. The echo chamber of hate was and is global.
I agree. Trump was pushing birtherism and racism before too. He has a history of mysoginy.

But that was before he was the President of the United States and I think that's an important distinction to make. President Trump's opinion carries a lot more weight and has a lot more reach than failed businessman and sometimes entertainer Trump. He certainly wasn't in the news daily in Australia or New Zealand before he started his campaign.
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,264
3,840
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So, does every god that had people kill in their name carry blood on their hands?

Yes.
In case you've been asleep for the last couple of thousand years, the God of the world, has always been a blood God. Even before the crucifixion of Christ, you can't read more than 10 chapters in the Old Testament, without finding some evidence of blood sacrifice.

Abraham was told to sacrifice his son on a rock. Lambs were sacrificed, as a penance for sins, and atonement, along with goats, and oxen. Lambs were sacrificed, and their blood spread over the lentil of the door of every Jewish slave, so that the Angel of Death would pass over their home when the firstborn of Egypt were struck down.

It's nothing new for the God of many religions to demand a blood sacrifice in His name.

What's Trump's excuse?

Any other questions?
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,735
28,908
136
Your however point does not conflict with what I said. My point is that, while Trump has made things worse, the extremest were building before him.

Look at Europe. It was turning to the Right before Trump even started his campaign. The roots of Brexit were developed before him. You had the Philippines turning to an extremest who was openly murdering people without due process. You had Brazil shift to the Right.

Not only is the shift happening in the US, but, it was happening all over the world. The echo chamber of hate was and is global.
Hate crimes went up almost 20% after Trump was elected. A lot of this would have been in remission absent Trump
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,264
3,840
136
Jesus some of you guys who can't stop posting about how much you dislike Trump is just as bad as the MAGA people who can't see him doing anything wrong.

And you can't even keep it out of this fucking thread.

Trump says that hate is cathartic and very good for the inner white nationalist.

How about you condemn the gunman and the tiny few who believe as he does and keep your faith in humanity. Celebrate the good and stand against the evil.

"The meek will never inherit the earth, as long as it is inhabited by wolves.." – Mack Bolan
 

twjr

Senior member
Jul 5, 2006
627
207
116
Please tell me this is not real, right? RIGHT? I don't care where he is, his color or language there is no place for this kind of BS in the world. This is 2019, to quote Bill Pullman "We can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore"
It's totally real and totally something Fraser Anning would say. This is the same guy that referenced a 'final solution' to immigration in a speech to the senate.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,017
8,546
136
He was inspired by American conservative Candace Owens...



Holy shit, here he is planning a mass murder and he's saying that some of what Owens has said was "too much"? So here we have a black American conservative being credited with inspiring a Australian white supremacist to murder a bunch of innocent Muslims in New Zealand.

Fuck.

Yeah, one of the gunmen cited right-wing figure Candace Owens as his inspiration. Her reaction was "LOL!" and a laughing emoji, and to blame "The Left" for implying a connection between her and the shooting.

Lady, it isn't about you - save your laughter for an occasion where laughter is appropriate.

How about "While I have no idea how my words could have inspired such an act, that's not important right now. I join the people of New Zealand in mourning these senseless deaths." How hard would that have been
 
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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
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Trump isn't a symptom of the problem he has become it's idol. That should make you pause.

It has been alluded to many times...he has had a reverse Midas touch all his life. The wonderment is only why his base thought - still thinks, actually - anything would be different when he was elected.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I

I agree. Trump was pushing birtherism and racism before too. He has a history of mysoginy.

But that was before he was the President of the United States and I think that's an important distinction to make. President Trump's opinion carries a lot more weight and has a lot more reach than failed businessman and sometimes entertainer Trump. He certainly wasn't in the news daily in Australia or New Zealand before he started his campaign.

Again though, birtherism was not started by him. That was something invented by ironically people on the Left to stop Obama and Trump ran with it. Its a great example of what I am talking about.

Trump is great at taking something and using it as his own to move his agenda forward.

What I would say is that while Trump is a big name in stoking this fire, he is not the majority cause. Ultimately, if he were gone, we would see little change. The world is just angry right now.