more Speaker questions

[Anarchist420]

1. Are Infinity Primus P162s/163s supposed to be extremely bass-heavy?

That's what I have (had for the past 2-3 years) and I'm asking because I read that HK3490s (that's what I use) are supposed to be warm/bright sounding, but Primus P162s woofers have never been very pleasant, they boom like a sonuvabi*** (and they don't sound pleasant like a Z5500's sub does). There are highs but they aren't that good (mids aren't good either) and I have everything hooked up right (blue jeans cable 12 gauge copper, with locking banana plugs on both ends but I don't know how pure the copper is or how many strands there are), excellent house wiring, etc., etc.

2. Would a pair of speakers that had a spec'd frequency response of 72hz-33KHz have significantly better mids? I know that mids are the most difficult to produce because there are only woofers and tweeters.

3. Can most people notice an appreciable difference between an HK 990 vs a 3490 (assuming everything else is the same)? The specifications are a lot better for the 990 (170 KHz max frequency, superior DAC, +/100A instantaneous current) although the amplifier power is still pretty good for the 3490 as is frequency range (both are 10 Hz minimum and > 100KHz maximum for both the way they rated it; 10 Hz is better than 5 for minimum).

 

[Paul98]

1. Are Infinity Primus P162s/163s supposed to be extremely bass-heavy?

That's what I have (had for the past 2-3 years) and I'm asking because I read that HK3490s (that's what I use) are supposed to be warm/bright sounding, but Primus P162s woofers have never been very pleasant, they boom like a sonuvabi*** (and they don't sound pleasant like a Z5500's sub does). There are highs but they aren't that good (mids aren't good either) and I have everything hooked up right (blue jeans cable 12 gauge copper, with locking banana plugs on both ends but I don't know how pure the copper is or how many strands there are), excellent house wiring, etc., etc.

2. Would a pair of speakers that had a spec'd frequency response of 72hz-33KHz have significantly better mids? I know that mids are the most difficult to produce because there are only woofers and tweeters.

3. Can most people notice an appreciable difference between an HK 990 vs a 3490 (assuming everything else is the same)? The specifications are a lot better for the 990 (170 KHz max frequency, superior DAC, +/100A instantaneous current) although the amplifier power is still pretty good for the 3490 as is frequency range (both are 10 Hz minimum and > 100KHz maximum for both the way they rated it; 10 Hz is better than 5 for minimum).

1. That AVR is supposed to be warm sounding, not bright. How close do you have them to the walls? They are a bookshelf speaker they won't have that much bass. How do you have your tone, bass, treble,... setup?

2. No, specs mean little to nothing.

3. No, you will notice no difference.

 

[Anubis]

your room most likely is having the largest effect on the bass you are hearing

 

[SithSolo1]

I had the Infinity Entra One speakers which were the precursor to the P16x Primus line.
They sounded fine to me and did not seem bass heavy, however they did not like receiving a full signal. I had mine cut off at 80hz with a subwoofer.

 

[Anarchist420]

3. No, you will notice no difference.

Then why did Harman Kardon make it?

That AVR is supposed to be warm sounding, not bright. How close do you have them to the walls? They are a bookshelf speaker they won't have that much bass. How do you have your tone, bass, treble,... setup?

I don't know what you mean about tone, but the bass knob was at default and the treble knob was (7/12, 18/25], that is, >58 1/3 % and <= 72%. I just reduced the bass and decreased the treble to normal. Thank you.

Where can I go to find out what each of the different terms mean and examples of each? How would an amp be described if it sounded like a vacuum tube, did excellent in the mid range, did clear high frequencies (went well above 20KHz), and lacked much bass?

How would the subwoofer and amp of a z-5500 be described as?

2. No, specs mean little to nothing.

Why?

your room most likely is having the largest effect on the bass you are hearing

What about my room could cause that?

They sounded fine to me and did not seem bass heavy, however they did not like receiving a full signal. I had mine cut off at 80hz with a subwoofer.

What did not receiving a full signal sound like? Did you mean that frequencies below 80hz sounded harsh/distorted?

 

[SithSolo1]

What did not receiving a full signal sound like? Did you mean that frequencies below 80hz sounded harsh/distorted?

It was more that I didn't like them with a full signal, they didn't have enough low end oomph on their own and I would lose some clarity(I guess distortion?) during high action scenes in some movies. After crossing them with a sub, they formed a perfectly clear phantom center for movies. For music the mid-range was well defined and the highs were crisp but not sparkling like my Klipsch speakers. The Entra One line was released about a decade before the P163s so its plausible they sound completely different.

 

[gar655]

1. Are Infinity Primus P162s/163s supposed to be extremely bass-heavy?

That's what I have (had for the past 2-3 years) and I'm asking because I read that HK3490s (that's what I use) are supposed to be warm/bright sounding, but Primus P162s woofers have never been very pleasant, they boom like a sonuvabi*** (and they don't sound pleasant like a Z5500's sub does). There are highs but they aren't that good (mids aren't good either) and I have everything hooked up right (blue jeans cable 12 gauge copper, with locking banana plugs on both ends but I don't know how pure the copper is or how many strands there are), excellent house wiring, etc., etc.

2. Would a pair of speakers that had a spec'd frequency response of 72hz-33KHz have significantly better mids? I know that mids are the most difficult to produce because there are only woofers and tweeters.

3. Can most people notice an appreciable difference between an HK 990 vs a 3490 (assuming everything else is the same)? The specifications are a lot better for the 990 (170 KHz max frequency, superior DAC, +/100A instantaneous current) although the amplifier power is still pretty good for the 3490 as is frequency range (both are 10 Hz minimum and > 100KHz maximum for both the way they rated it; 10 Hz is better than 5 for minimum).

Wires have no affect on the sound no matter how much those who spend $1ks/ft want to believe.

There is little to no difference in how amps sound. It's the room correction software on the new multi-channel AVRs that can make them sound different.

As for your unhappiness with the mids and bass, no AVR or amp is going to change that. The speakers IIRC are front ported so placement shouldn't be an issue unless you have them jammed up against a wall in a cabinet.

Solution would be to get better speakers. If you want some inexpensive speakers that have a sweet midrange, I would recommend a pair of NHT super zeros, but you will need a sub with them.

Of course there a many speakers available for less than $500/pair that would be a nice upgrade to what you have now.

 

[Gintaras]

What about my room could cause that?

Room - size, how speakers are positioned - one of biggest factors of sound you do hear.

If you go to an audiophile gear store - something, like Sound By Singer or Stereo Exchange in NYC, you can see several demo rooms with different sizes...

Equalizers are used to compensate sound that in some specific room...

Try to position speakers facing longer wall and try it when speakers facing shorter walls...you might heard a very big difference...

Same with IEM's - you get several different flanges - it matters VERY MUCH - how IEM's fit into your ear.

Another thing...every speaker, headphones, IEM's require burn-in. You can judge or write review how your speakers, IEM's, headphones sound right away.

When I received my HiFiMan RE-262, I couldn't believe what for I've paid $120 - how bad sound was right out of the box...however, after playing these for 50-100 hrs., sound did change so much that for almost a year now, I can't stop to enjoy these....

 

[Paul98]

Then why did Harman Kardon make it?

to make money

I don't know what you mean about tone, but the bass knob was at default and the treble knob was (7/12, 18/25], that is, >58 1/3 % and <= 72%. I just reduced the bass and decreased the treble to normal. Thank you.

Where can I go to find out what each of the different terms mean and examples of each? How would an amp be described if it sounded like a vacuum tube, did excellent in the mid range, did clear high frequencies (went well above 20KHz), and lacked much bass?

How would the subwoofer and amp of a z-5500 be described as?

really I wouldn't worry about trying to figure out what the terms mean, because it is subjective and much of it is in your head. Clear high frequencies has nothing to do with above 20khz, most people can barely or can't hear 20khz anyway. Amp's for the most part don't change the sound or if they do it's very slightly as to barely noticeable.

Now in newer receivers there is room correction software which has a mic, and the receiver takes measurements. It allows it to setup correctly in your room so that you get more accurate sound.

If you want to see what speakers should sound like go somewhere that has quality speaker setup correctly. Take a listen. See what you like or don't like then find speakers you like. Though the problem you may be having could be because of your room, or because you are used to other speakers and these sound different.

Why?

because the measurements usually aren't accurate, aren't taken in your room which has a HUGE impact on the sound you get.

What about my room could cause that?

everything, walls ceilings, where the speaker is placed,... all sorts of reflections to boost and cancel different frequencies at different places in your room.

What did not receiving a full signal sound like? Did you mean that frequencies below 80hz sounded harsh/distorted?

No, it's crossed over at 80hz so below that freq, the speaker is getting less and less power, where as the sub gets full power at 80hz and less and less power above 80hz.


Also when you say they boom what do you mean? I think I know what you mean but we may be off. As the Z5500 "sub" is not an accurate sub and most would say it's boomy. It could be that you are hearing a freq spike and some trough which makes a small freq window overpower the rest of the bass.

Oh yeah and specs tell you nothing about how a speaker will sound.

 

[Anarchist420]

Also when you say they boom what do you mean? I think I know what you mean but we may be off. As the Z5500 "sub" is not an accurate sub and most would say it's boomy. It could be that you are hearing a freq spike and some trough which makes a small freq window overpower the rest of the bass.

Audio is analog which is inherently inaccurate. Sorry.

What i mean is that the lows are kind of harsh, not very clean, they seem to overpower the rest and the detail just isn't there (i.e., I think your statement that I highlighted in blue is right)... they sound nowhere near as good as the bass from a z5500. So how would I reduce the problem you mentioned above? What are factors other than room correction? My HK3490 doesn't do room correction that I'm aware of. I should definitely note that my older brother's Denon (I know neither the model nor the output power; he's had it for at least 3 years) that I last heard early this year had a subwoofer (don't know the model) and he had some Phase book shelf speakers and it sounded a lot better when playing Pixar's music than my setup does even though mine should really be better for two channel music... it didn't boom and it was much more clear like my HK 3490 was the first 150 or so hours of use at -33 dB. The only thing I'm thinking is that the Blu Ray edition he had was very well mastered and I got a fake or very poorly mastered edition of the soundtrack because there can't be that much of a difference in the quality otherwise.

Wires have no affect on the sound no matter how much those who spend $1ks/ft want to believe.

They do, using aluminum speaker cable would not sound as good as copper. I'm sorry. I also do not ever want to live in a house with aluminum electrical wiring because the aluminum absorbs energy rather than passing it on (which makes the power supplies in everything work harder than they do with copper wiring).

 

[Paul98]

Audio is analog which is inherently inaccurate. Sorry.

What i mean is that the lows are kind of harsh, not very clean, they seem to overpower the rest and the detail just isn't there (i.e., I think your statement that I highlighted in blue is right)... they sound nowhere near as good as the bass from a z5500. So how would I reduce the problem you mentioned above? What are factors other than room correction? My HK3490 doesn't do room correction that I'm aware of. I should definitely note that my older brother's Denon (I know neither the model nor the output power; he's had it for at least 3 years) that I last heard early this year had a subwoofer (don't know the model) and he had some Phase book shelf speakers and it sounded a lot better when playing Pixar's music than my setup does even though mine should really be better for two channel music... it didn't boom and it was much more clear like my HK 3490 was the first 150 or so hours of use at -33 dB. The only thing I'm thinking is that the Blu Ray edition he had was very well mastered and I got a fake or very poorly mastered edition of the soundtrack because there can't be that much of a difference in the quality otherwise.

They do, using aluminum speaker cable would not sound as good as copper. I'm sorry. I also do not ever want to live in a house with aluminum electrical wiring because the aluminum absorbs energy rather than passing it on (which makes the power supplies in everything work harder than they do with copper wiring).

You obviously know nothing about this, yet you seem to try to come off like you do. I have no sympathy that your system sounds bad.

 

[Meghan54]

Audio is analog which is inherently inaccurate. Sorry.

What i mean is that the lows are kind of harsh, not very clean, they seem to overpower the rest and the detail just isn't there (i.e., I think your statement that I highlighted in blue is right)... they sound nowhere near as good as the bass from a z5500. So how would I reduce the problem you mentioned above? What are factors other than room correction? My HK3490 doesn't do room correction that I'm aware of. I should definitely note that my older brother's Denon (I know neither the model nor the output power; he's had it for at least 3 years) that I last heard early this year had a subwoofer (don't know the model) and he had some Phase book shelf speakers and it sounded a lot better when playing Pixar's music than my setup does even though mine should really be better for two channel music... it didn't boom and it was much more clear like my HK 3490 was the first 150 or so hours of use at -33 dB. The only thing I'm thinking is that the Blu Ray edition he had was very well mastered and I got a fake or very poorly mastered edition of the soundtrack because there can't be that much of a difference in the quality otherwise.

They do, using aluminum speaker cable would not sound as good as copper. I'm sorry. I also do not ever want to live in a house with aluminum electrical wiring because the aluminum absorbs energy rather than passing it on (which makes the power supplies in everything work harder than they do with copper wiring).

As mentioned by Paul98, you know just enough to sound like you know what you're talking about, but in reality you know nothing.

Just like with the aluminum wiring for electrical circuits.

First, you say alu. absorbs energy rather than passing it on. So darned close, yet so far from the truth. What you meant is resistance to flow, something every metal has, be it aluminum or copper. Each metal has its own resistance characteristics.

Underwriters Laboratories had previously approved aluminum for
interior wiring purposes as early as 1945. Of course there were some issues that needed to be considered by the industry if we were going to use aluminum for circuits in homes. It was much softer than copper wiring, it couldn’t withstand as much stress when it was being pulled, it was subject to breaking if it was nicked and bent at radical angles, and it had to be at least one wire gauge larger than copper for each current rating. But, despite all of the downfalls of aluminum, it was much cheaper to use at the time and it would have been an acceptable product for the purpose if it were installed correctly. Not much emphasis was put on aluminum wiring’s creep rating (rate of expansion and contraction) and very little information was disseminated to the end user’s about the proper installation of aluminum wiring.

Most of the homes that were built during that era (specifically the '60's thru '70's) were not wired appropriately. That is because the receptacles, switches, and other devices that were installed on the wiring were not of the correct type and oxide inhibitor wasn’t in widespread use. Had the devices been Co/Alr type devices (switches and receptacles that are rated for both copper and aluminum) there would not have been nearly the backlash and problems that we have all heard about.

The devices that were installed in most of the homes with aluminum wiring were rated only for copper and are not compatible with aluminum due to the composition of the screws and terminals. In short, the metal on the screw terminals caused oxidation, heating, expansion, and contraction, which made the terminals become loose on the receptacles and switches. That is primarily because aluminum expands and contracts at a different rate than copper, and the switches and receptacles were designed for copper’s rate of expansion and contraction.

As you can see, the aluminum was never really the culprit but rather the faulty installation, incompatible materials, and lack of maintenance.



So there.

 

[Anarchist420]

Can anyone help me with the frequency spike problem he was talking about?

I googled it and didn't get anything dealing with home audio.

EDIT: I moved the speakers and they sound more like they should now. They were on the carpet and the left one's side was against the wall.

Perhaps the calibration in avrs does make a difference... I had previously regarded it as a gimmick that was noise-producing, additional (unnecessary) circuitry.