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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,531
18,091
136
"We are mostly business owners and employees that are losing our income and denied our right to provide for our families. We have come together to demand action from their elected officials".

All the foolish blustering aside, I understand that basic point of view. We can't inflect catastrophic financial damage on people and expect them to simply accept it. No one should be the least bit surprised by this. These folks have been sacrificed as a necessary casualty for the greater good. They don't like it, and that's not only understandable but perfectly acceptable.
Absolutely no one denies the reality of their greivances. No one whatsoever. But that should never even have to be the issue.

Why aren't there available resources to support such people when the health and safety of all people--not just "me" or "you"--actually require them to make this sacrifice?

Why can't we support them when this is abolutely, unmistakably required? Why does a large segment of our population swear to their deaths taht the needs of 100 or so billionaires and corporate entities, at any time and every time, are always vastly more important than the health, safety, and success of the actual humans in the country? Why is that where we are right now? Why did this happen? Is it not obvious that this is a fucking horrible way to run things, when shit really hits the fan?

That's the real issue. We can absolutely do that. We have that ability. People like to think we are the best nation anywhere, but those same people don't seem interested in taking responsibility, or actually being, what that actually means in the world today. We have the resources. It is something we can do. There is absolutely no wy around that.

Why don't we make that happen? What is stopping us from being an actual first world nation?
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,531
18,091
136
Who has sacrificed them, though? People like to blame the state governments, but the data continue to confirm that people wouldn't be frequenting restaurants, bars, and other non-essential small businesses even in the absence of government restrictions. But once again, conservatives are able to distract people from the real issue, instead placing the blame on state governments that are trying to minimize the health casualties. A few token patrons willing to frequent these businesses will not save the businesses, but will prolong and exacerbate the spread of the virus.

If we want to minimize the damage done to the economy, we need to listen to the experts. We need to put the economy in a medically induced coma until we can sustain it again, and in the meantime provide these workers and small business owners with the cash relief they need to make it through. McConnell has said republicans aren't willing to do that though.
"Experts are not to be tusted. These elites are out to get you! Your plain, proud ignorance is as great as their expertise"

FoxNews agitprop, c. 1989-present. all day, every day.

I feel that the brains that have been fed this poison are truly lost.
 
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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
14,368
7,149
146
"We are mostly business owners and employees that are losing our income and denied our right to provide for our families. We have come together to demand action from their elected officials".

All the foolish blustering aside, I understand that basic point of view. We can't inflect catastrophic financial damage on people and expect them to simply accept it. No one should be the least bit surprised by this. These folks have been sacrificed as a necessary casualty for the greater good. They don't like it, and that's not only understandable but perfectly acceptable.
Their anger is misplaced. Even with states opening up customers aren’t flocking back to consume as they were before the pandemic.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-people-are-dining-out-as-states-reopen-but-dont-expect-more-activity-until-theres-a-coronavirus-vaccine-data-suggests-2020-05-27


It doesn’t matter how much they protest and threaten and demand they be allowed to work the customers aren’t coming back in many industries until there’s proof the pandemic is under control, there’s a vaccine, or the government forces them at gunpoint to patronize businesses.
 

GodisanAtheist

Platinum Member
Nov 16, 2006
2,542
1,029
136
... the data continue to confirm that people wouldn't be frequenting restaurants, bars, and other non-essential small businesses even in the absence of government restrictions...
- To play Devil's Advocate: Doesn't that suggest that Governments can lift restrictions so people can go back to work (regardless of the amount of work there actually is) while simultaneously limiting the spread of the virus because the public will not actually go out to frequent those places of business?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,531
18,091
136
I don't consider it oppressive to slow down a viral outbreak, rather saving lives.

We'll see if this fellow starts killing people. Well, you'll see, I'm ignoring him.
Good for you. It looks like he already has at least 68k in his club though, not ignoring him. I'd guess they're all armed. And angry.

But it's good to be the right color, I guess, because then we can assume they aren't a real threat. We can just ignore them. ...or like your first suggestion: "let them start a rebellion. Let them murder peoplef or their cause. we'll sit back and see if it works, or if it doesn't."
...

see, I don't get that. It's really quite a monstrous suggestion to "let a murder rebellion happen and sit back to see what happens."
 
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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
14,368
7,149
146
- To play Devil's Advocate: Doesn't that suggest that Governments can lift restrictions so people can go back to work (regardless of the amount of work there actually is) while simultaneously limiting the spread of the virus because the public will not actually go out to frequent those places of business?
Not really. Basically we need the R0 of the virus to be 1 or less. Unchecked it seems to be in the 2+ range. If relaxing lockdowns and social distancing to increase economic output pushes the R0 back up above 1 but fails to provide enough customers to save these businesses what was the point?

Most customer centric businesses are down 40-80%. More economic activity tends to increase linearly while infection rates increase exponentially. Most businesses aren’t producing huge profits so without other controls on the virus you aren’t going get back above the ~ 90% revenue they require to survive without sending infection rates soaring.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,092
989
136
- To play Devil's Advocate: Doesn't that suggest that Governments can lift restrictions so people can go back to work (regardless of the amount of work there actually is) while simultaneously limiting the spread of the virus because the public will not actually go out to frequent those places of business?
Governments have been lifting restrictions, with the primary requirements being a declining number of cases in the region, the company being able to implement appropriate safety for both employees and customers, along with the community having appropriate testing capacities in place. Assuming those requirements are met, then yes, these companies should be able to open back up based on a science backed, stepwise process monitoring the effects as regulations ease.

If these requirements aren't met, the problem is that even if most people will stay away from these businesses, there are some people that won't. This virus has proven to be very contagious, such that small portions of the population are capable of keeping it spreading. While I don't think this will lead to a catastrophic outbreak like took place in New York, it could prolong the spread of the virus at a slow and steady burn, prolonging the conditions that are preventing businesses from being able to return to a profitable environment.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
5,503
486
126
see, I don't get that. It's really quite a monstrous suggestion to "let a murder rebellion happen and sit back to see what happens."
Not at all, people say stupid things all the time, but don't act on them.

Now if he assembles an armed militia and marches towards some target, or pulls a weapon on anyone, sure, lock him up or put him down, whichever is necessary.

The difference here is action vs words. Even so, I'd take it differently if he made a credible threat against a specific person.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
14,368
7,149
146
Going to decide at T-20 if the weather is allowable. (Too much chance of lightning currently)
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,131
13,071
136
Yes, it’s too late for that. What we will likely get now is some sort of hazy middle ground where bars and restaurants get some modest number of customers back and the virus sticks around at moderate levels, killing a thousand or so people a day. It’s hard to see how losing so many customers is a sustainable business model.
Shucks, cowboy- we're losing 1000 people per day right now as the result of a lot of strong social distancing. We're in the same place we were 2 months ago. The notion we can keep it there as we relax restrictions is pure wishful thinking. We may not be able to have that rise to a higher yet manageable level at all. The potential for exponential increase is quite real. If it gets away from us going back will be near impossible.

 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
16,655
2,168
126
Their anger is misplaced. Even with states opening up customers aren’t flocking back to consume as they were before the pandemic.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-people-are-dining-out-as-states-reopen-but-dont-expect-more-activity-until-theres-a-coronavirus-vaccine-data-suggests-2020-05-27


It doesn’t matter how much they protest and threaten and demand they be allowed to work the customers aren’t coming back in many industries until there’s proof the pandemic is under control, there’s a vaccine, or the government forces them at gunpoint to patronize businesses.
Having your business fail for lack of patrons is an entirely different matter than being forced to close down through government action. In this case there is someone responsible. Those people can all point to someone or some group and say "they put me out of business".
If your opinion that there will be no customers is correct, then allowing them to open is a no brainer, if no one walks in the store, then no one is at risk of getting sick. If they do get customers, even with 60% drop in revenue, it may be enough for them to survive.
We were told this was all about flattening the curve, about keeping hospitals from being overwhelmed, we've done that in most of the country. Now the narrative has changed to "when it's safe". That wasn't what was presented to the american people. Anyone who doesn't feel safe is free to stay home, no one wants to force them back to work. But all those people who took the hit to make it happen have met their obligation, and are pissed off now that the deal has been changed. I wholeheartedly support them.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
28,051
2,549
126
If he's willing to kill, he should just get COVID-19 and cough on his parents -- he won't have to fire a shot. It's sad that people like him are so selfish and ignorant out there.
Isn't a threat to kill people with your guns grounds enough to arrest him or at least disarm him? Anyone who threatens to kill people with guns, i.e. commit a very serious crime with them, should not be permitted to get their hands on one. Agree?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
28,051
2,549
126
Anyone who doesn't feel safe is free to stay home, no one wants to force them back to work. But all those people who took the hit to make it happen have met their obligation, and are pissed off now that the deal has been changed. I wholeheartedly support them.
This is just not true. Many workers don't want to go back to work and their employers are insisting they do, putting them at great risk. Where did you get that idiotic notion?
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
7,873
4,874
136
Isn't a threat to kill people with your guns grounds enough to arrest him or at least disarm him? Anyone who threatens to kill people with guns, i.e. commit a very serious crime with them, should not be permitted to get their hands on one. Agree?
Unfortunately, it's too vague in this case to lead to an arrest. Saying you're "willing to kill people" isn't the same as saying "I intend to kill that particular politician." And on access to guns... that'd be tricky, as trawling someone's online history would have all kinds of privacy concerns, even though I agree that people who express intentions of violence against innocents shouldn't get guns.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
11,835
6,294
136
Shucks, cowboy- we're losing 1000 people per day right now as the result of a lot of strong social distancing. We're in the same place we were 2 months ago. The notion we can keep it there as we relax restrictions is pure wishful thinking. We may not be able to have that rise to a higher yet manageable level at all. The potential for exponential increase is quite real. If it gets away from us going back will be near impossible.

Every single state has relaxed at least some of its restrictions, while some have removed almost all of them. I've looked rather closely every day at the data. US deaths have been dropping steadily since they reached their peak in late April. Cases are also dropping off, though that statistic is near worthless because it's too sensitive to testing frequency which is why some states showing a slight increase in cases is meaningless. Meanwhile, deaths are dropping off in practically every country in the northern hemisphere, and exploding in Brazil and some other South American countries like Chile and Peru.

It's clear that this virus is temperature sensitive like every other known coronavirus, meaning that while the re-openings may be increasing infections, the warmer weather is simultaneously decreasing them. The very notion of a "second wave" in fall/winter which is being discussed by every expert is premised on the assumption that summer weather will end the first wave. Otherwise why even call it a second wave?

I wouldn't bank on a massive surge due to the re-openings. I predict daily deaths in the low hundreds through summer, and more than likely another surge late in the year.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
16,655
2,168
126
This is just not true. Many workers don't want to go back to work and their employers are insisting they do, putting them at great risk. Where did you get that idiotic notion?
There is nothing idiotic about it. Everyone is free to stay home, no employer can force an employee to work. Unless you're in the army.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,200
8,044
136
There is nothing idiotic about it. Everyone is free to stay home, no employer can force an employee to work. Unless you're in the army.
Right, workers have the right to be fired, protecting themselves is simply an option they are free to exercise. Its not the employers fault they fired the employee who didn't show up for work because they didn't feel safe.

Brilliant logic!
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
28,051
2,549
126
There is nothing idiotic about it. Everyone is free to stay home, no employer can force an employee to work. Unless you're in the army.
Well, the employer just says show up or your fired. That's not what I call free. You like it, I don't.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
6,023
4,089
136
Approximately 180,000,000 Adult Americans.

$10,000 direct deposited/mailed to each, tomorrow = $1.8T.

That's a decent chunk of change for almost everyone.

Call for nationwide mortgage/rentproperty tax suspension until September. Free Housing for everyone, and everyone who owns a bunch of houses for "rental income" aren't out anything since their mortgage payments are suspended along with rent payments from their tenants...and any empty properties would actually be + income with mortgage payments suspended.

This economic crisis is 100% POLITICAL.

All it takes is for politicians to SERVE THE PEOPLE by doing what is necessary, and provide adequate cash to people so they can stay inside with the power on and their refrigerator stocked with food.

Instead, one entire party is determined to give trillions to non-persons (banks, businesses, corporations) instead of to the FUCKING ACTUAL PEOPLE of the country.

This is a political problem.

Vote accordingly.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,131
13,071
136
Every single state has relaxed at least some of its restrictions, while some have removed almost all of them. I've looked rather closely every day at the data. US deaths have been dropping steadily since they reached their peak in late April. Cases are also dropping off, though that statistic is near worthless because it's too sensitive to testing frequency which is why some states showing a slight increase in cases is meaningless. Meanwhile, deaths are dropping off in practically every country in the northern hemisphere, and exploding in Brazil and some other South American countries like Chile and Peru.

It's clear that this virus is temperature sensitive like every other known coronavirus, meaning that while the re-openings may be increasing infections, the warmer weather is simultaneously decreasing them. The very notion of a "second wave" in fall/winter which is being discussed by every expert is premised on the assumption that summer weather will end the first wave. Otherwise why even call it a second wave?

I wouldn't bank on a massive surge due to the re-openings. I predict daily deaths in the low hundreds through summer, and more than likely another surge late in the year.
Gawd. Manaus Brazil is currently a hotspot. It's 3 degrees off the equator, nice & warm there year round-


This shit is extremely contagious & spreads like wildfire in a windstorm but we're going to brave it out, apparently.
 
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