The obvious difference is in a late term abortion the only crime the baby comitted was conception. In the case of death penalty cases the party was found guilty by his peers of a crime that warranted his execution.
I do find it perplexing the OPs stance on this situation. He states " I think it's morally reprehensible for the "state" to endorse killing for any reason. "
But knowing his background for supporting abortions, especially late term abortions he seems either confused or a hypocrite.
For liberals and some conservatives it may be vengeance, but vengeance is an action taken by the stupid and morally corrupt.
The death penalty is a deterrent although to liberals since it doesn't stop 100% of the applicable crimes it is not a deterrent, thus, I understand your illogic.
However, the severity of the punishment should be based on a continuing danger to society. We should not give the same penalty (if any) for a looter stealing water and food from a 7-Eleven in New Orleans in the days after Katrina as you do to the looter stealing a plasma TV set or non-food/water items from a home.
Now, since you were either on the jury or a close friend of a jurist then explain why they thought he would be a danger to society but now think otherwise. Surely you wouldn?t just be making such statements without a reason other than your responses to the three smoke screen reasons you provided. That is, questions that are what you WANT the reasons for the death penalty to be since you can refute them rather than the logical reason.
BTW, your questions are so biased and ill reasoned as to be laughable. Except it is probably what the mainstream media has told you to think.
Hahaha. At least have an argument to present! Damn. You're number than a pounded thumb. It probably only seems like bbd knows a lot to you.
Life in prison without possibility of parole seems a just punishment for this man. Especially since his own children asked for leniency!
I'm against the DP, except in extreme cases. Serial killers, sex crimes against children resulting in death, sex with horses, etc...
Motion to ban. Irrelevant and pejorative garbage. Taking lessons from the Bush Administration I see....
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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Murder is so serious an offense that it is considered a crime against all of society, not just a single victim and/or that victim's family. That's why it's the State of North Carolina vs. Elias Syriani for the charge of murder in the first degree. Note closely that it is not the victim and her children listed as plaintiffs, but the entire state of North Carolina. This is how justice works, and rightly so to prevent it from being used as a form of vengeance. The convicted has committed a crime against humanity, not a single person. Humanity has the right to restitution. This is justice. It is not state murder or 2 wrongs making a right. It is self defense and restitution. It is also fair kinder than the alternative, which is the unspeakable cruelty of life in solitary confinement.
I think it's quite unlikely anyone will find a personal endorsement of intact D & X for the purpose of elective abortion for a viable child. Look it up morons. I have endorsed intact D & X for miscarriages, nonviability, and health of the mother. "Health of the mother" is not NARAL code. The cure for eclampsia (which can kill) is ending the pregnancy. Women with Marfan syndrome also risk death by carrying pregnancy to term. Nonviable refers to conditions such as Patau syndrome (median survival 2.5 days with 1 in 20 surviving 6 months).
I have never endorsed abortion. I am an advocate for a woman's right to choose them despite the fact I would personally prefer and have encouraged them (on a few occasions) to make a different decision . . . but only when asked for my opinion.
Intact D & X are relatively infrequent for abortion. Out of the 1.3 million pregnancies that are electively terminated each year less than 0.2% are intact D & X. I don't know the actual distribution between fetal abnormality (Patau, et al) and maternal preference. If I had to guess that total probably includes miscarriages as well, although technically it is no longer an abortion. Due to the "charged language" many physicians refer to natural abortions as "miscarriage", we used to use the term spontaneous abortion but it's fallen out of favor. Technically, the loss of the fetus before 20 wks is a miscarriage (removal by intact D & X if second trimester). The loss of the fetus after 20 wks is a preterm delivery. Obviously, it's an odd term considering the dead fetus is removed surgically (intact D & X).
I have never endorsed abortion. I am an advocate for a woman's right to choose them despite the fact I would personally prefer and have encouraged them (on a few occasions) to make a different decision . . . but only when asked for my opinion.
Intact D & X are relatively infrequent for abortion. Out of the 1.3 million pregnancies that are electively terminated each year less than 0.2% are intact D & X. I don't know the actual distribution between fetal abnormality (Patau, et al) and maternal preference. If I had to guess that total probably includes miscarriages as well, although technically it is no longer an abortion. Due to the "charged language" many physicians refer to natural abortions as "miscarriage", we used to use the term spontaneous abortion but it's fallen out of favor. Technically, the loss of the fetus before 20 wks is a miscarriage (removal by intact D & X if second trimester). The loss of the fetus after 20 wks is a preterm delivery. Obviously, it's an odd term considering the dead fetus is removed surgically (intact D & X).
Colt45
Lifer
- Apr 18, 2001
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I don't like the concept of a death penalty.
Hard labour for physical crimes i think should be used.. not for theft or other things where humans are no maimed though, although punishment/reform for that needs some work there too.
Hard labour is a serious deterrent I think. If you beat the ****** out of someone, then have five years of lifting rock or breaking dirt 16 hours a day and eating rice... you'll never hit anyone again.
Hard labour for physical crimes i think should be used.. not for theft or other things where humans are no maimed though, although punishment/reform for that needs some work there too.
Hard labour is a serious deterrent I think. If you beat the ****** out of someone, then have five years of lifting rock or breaking dirt 16 hours a day and eating rice... you'll never hit anyone again.
Actually, I would endorse hard labor for most crimes . . . Martha Stewart, Oliver North, Jack Abramoff, Scooter Libby.
But in those cases, "justice" is primarily a punishment for "wrongdoing" combined with the intent of deterring future crime by the perpetrators AND others that would commit comparable offenses. Depending on the crime, restitution to the victim might be possible but with the death penalty that's rarely true. In fact, the lack of deterrence and the lack of restitution makes the death penalty just plain old killing for the sake of killing.
Syriani brutally murdered his wife b/c she threatened divorce. There's absolutely no excuse for killing someone else. A fit of rage is an extenuating circumstance but it's far from an explanation and certainly NOT exculpatory.
It's true the state has a vested interest in preventing murder but the manner in which we apply the death penalty does NOT do so. It does not prevent except to the extent that dead people cannot kill again. The consensus is that the death penalty does not deter.
not even close to deterrence . . . even in Texas
IMO, the state of NC victimized the Syriani family by proceding with this execution. It had nothing to do with justice and everything to do with a culture of vengeance.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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No amount of punishment deters crime. No matter how much we up the punishments, criminals are still committing crime. Shall we drop all punishments entirely then? This idiotic deterrence argument really needs to end. Just because you are scared of the punishments to criminal acts you would probably never commit commit under any circumstances does not mean that criminals are deterred by the punishments. A man about to murder his wife does not stop to hesitate and think about the consequences before he pulls the trigger. It doesn't happen. He just pulls the trigger.
The fact is Elias Syriani victimized humanity when he murdered his wife. In consequence, his life was forfeit as restitution. Now you, Doc, would victimize us with your bleeding heart and personal agenda. The state of NC did not victimize the Syriani family. Elias Syriani did that -- victimized his own family -- the day he murdered his wife. Everything that followed was the inevitable consequence of what he and he alone set in motion.
The fact is Elias Syriani victimized humanity when he murdered his wife. In consequence, his life was forfeit as restitution. Now you, Doc, would victimize us with your bleeding heart and personal agenda. The state of NC did not victimize the Syriani family. Elias Syriani did that -- victimized his own family -- the day he murdered his wife. Everything that followed was the inevitable consequence of what he and he alone set in motion.
judasmachine
Diamond Member
- Sep 15, 2002
- 8,515
- 3
- 81
I don't see this as much of anything but state sanctioned murder, but then the state isn't just grabbing random people off the street to visit it upon. They are doing it to people who more than likely (as proven in court, albeit not 100%) did it to someone else.
Name-calling - nice.
Which isn't the same as killing the child. Eclampsia was why my last daughter was 2 months early, but she's alive and kicking today.
You just put yourself in the same cateogory as those Southerners who argued that if Northerners didn't like slavery, they should just stop owning slaves, but that's no reason to force your morality on others.
I find it funny how his party's base vehemently opposed the PBA ban, which incidentally had exceptions for the reasons he mentioned.
1) I'm an Independent. My previous party was the GOP of the great state of North Carolina. Unfortunately, my party started sucking mightily a little over 10 years ago, not long after I gained the right to vote.
The BS bill passed by Congress will have an inconsequential effect on late term abortions. I assume most Democrats opposed it b/c Republicans considered it just a stepping stone to outlawing any form of abortion.
2) Eclampsia, for the ignorant that don't know and the few idiots that don't realize they don't know enough . . . can occur at virtually any time during pregnancy. Accordingly, it would certainly be an indication for an intact D & X if it occurs late. Depending on the length of gestation the other surgical options would be manual vacuum, D & C, or D & E. Regardless of the mechanism, it is still an elective abortion albeit a medically necessary one.
3) The Civil War . . . really? If you actually read the words in my post . . . instead of just moving your lips . . . you would see I have NEVER imposed a moral position on others . . . particularly not patients. If someone has a difficult medical/moral issue AND ASKS for my moral inclination . . . I give it. Otherwise, I keep my friggin' mouth shut about what I "feel" is the right thing to do. My medical opinions themselves always come without my moral perspective.
Fortunately, I haven't had to professionally explore a woman's coochie since 2001 (medical school). I expect that I will NEVER answer another question about abortion (from a professional perspective).
Industrial pollution is a crime against humanity. Murder (typically) is a crime against a person. Mass murder is a crime against humanity. The government has a responsiblity to protect the public from people that would harm particular people or the public in general. The moral foundation of such a role is lost when the state applies it's power in a morally inconsistent manner.
Despite clear evidence that the death penalty and even the very application of charges in the first place are moderated by race of the offender, race of the victim, state of the crime, and financial resources of the offender (more directly . . . the quality of their legal representation) . . . death penalty proponents continue to pretend that justice is occuring in both the application of the law and execution of punishment.
deadly injustice
The BS bill passed by Congress will have an inconsequential effect on late term abortions. I assume most Democrats opposed it b/c Republicans considered it just a stepping stone to outlawing any form of abortion.
2) Eclampsia, for the ignorant that don't know and the few idiots that don't realize they don't know enough . . . can occur at virtually any time during pregnancy. Accordingly, it would certainly be an indication for an intact D & X if it occurs late. Depending on the length of gestation the other surgical options would be manual vacuum, D & C, or D & E. Regardless of the mechanism, it is still an elective abortion albeit a medically necessary one.
3) The Civil War . . . really? If you actually read the words in my post . . . instead of just moving your lips . . . you would see I have NEVER imposed a moral position on others . . . particularly not patients. If someone has a difficult medical/moral issue AND ASKS for my moral inclination . . . I give it. Otherwise, I keep my friggin' mouth shut about what I "feel" is the right thing to do. My medical opinions themselves always come without my moral perspective.
Fortunately, I haven't had to professionally explore a woman's coochie since 2001 (medical school). I expect that I will NEVER answer another question about abortion (from a professional perspective).
Industrial pollution is a crime against humanity. Murder (typically) is a crime against a person. Mass murder is a crime against humanity. The government has a responsiblity to protect the public from people that would harm particular people or the public in general. The moral foundation of such a role is lost when the state applies it's power in a morally inconsistent manner.
Despite clear evidence that the death penalty and even the very application of charges in the first place are moderated by race of the offender, race of the victim, state of the crime, and financial resources of the offender (more directly . . . the quality of their legal representation) . . . death penalty proponents continue to pretend that justice is occuring in both the application of the law and execution of punishment.
deadly injustice
Then quit bitching about the death penalty - society has decided certain felons need to be whacked, and as long as you're not on death row, why do you care?
And BTW, that 'moving your lips' (and the name-calling already noted above) line is real mature; hard to believe we'd see that from an alleged doctor.
Which is why I don't consider it to be a violation of my libertarian leanings to oppose legalized abortion.
Don't like the discussion . . . then move along little person.
Society is often quite wrong in what it "decides."
Slavery . . . US Constitution
Racism . . . Jim Crow laws, laws against miscegenation
Sexism . . . denial of the right to vote
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. MLK 1963
Decent people care about the plight of others . . . just a function of having good morals. People can indeed in good faith disagree about the application of certain penalties (death penalty vs life in prison) but only the ignorant or delusional cling to the notion that our application of the law is just.
Society is often quite wrong in what it "decides."
Slavery . . . US Constitution
Racism . . . Jim Crow laws, laws against miscegenation
Sexism . . . denial of the right to vote
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. MLK 1963
Decent people care about the plight of others . . . just a function of having good morals. People can indeed in good faith disagree about the application of certain penalties (death penalty vs life in prison) but only the ignorant or delusional cling to the notion that our application of the law is just.
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