More "Nuance" On the Gazan Embargo

[Perknose]

Full article.

GAZA — Three years after Israel and Egypt imposed an embargo on this tormented Palestinian strip, shutting down its economy, a consensus has emerged that the attempt to weaken the governing party, Hamas, and drive it from power has failed.

In the days since an Israeli naval takeover of a flotilla trying to break the siege turned deadly, that consensus has taken on added urgency, with world powers, anti-Hamas Palestinians in Gaza and some senior Israeli officials advocating a shift.

In its three years in power Hamas has taken control not only of security, education and the justice system but also the economy, by regulating and taxing an extensive smuggling tunnel system from Egypt. In the process, the traditional and largely pro-Western business community has been sidelined.

This may be about to change.

“We need to build a legitimate private sector in Gaza as a strong counterweight to extremism,” Tony Blair, who serves as the international community’s liaison to the Palestinian Authority, said in an interview, reflecting the view of the Obama administration as well. “To end up with a Gaza that is dependent on tunnels and foreign aid is not a good idea.”

Businessmen in Gaza say that by closing down legitimate commerce Israel has helped Hamas tighten its domination. And by allowing in food for shops but not goods needed for industry, Israel is helping keep Gaza a welfare society, the sort of place where extremism can flourish.

“I can’t get cocoa powder, I can’t get malt, I can’t get shortening or syrup or wrapping material or boxes,” lamented Mohammed Telbani, the head of Al Awda, a cookie and ice cream factory in the central town of Deir el Balah. “I don’t like Hamas and I don’t like Fatah. All I want is to make food.”

Israeli officials say they have been working for months on a change of policy, but want to guard against helping Hamas or bringing renewed rocket attacks on Israel. They are less convinced than foreign leaders about the benefits of a full-scale tilt toward the business community, but they see room for increased activity.

“Hamas is strong,” acknowledged Maj. Gen. Eitan Dangot, the Israeli Defense Ministry official in charge of Palestinian civilian issues, in an interview. “It controls Gaza, and it doesn’t look like that is going to be changed in the coming months or maybe years. But we must protect our security while helping interests in Gaza that are not under Hamas’s control.”

For Israel, any shift in Gaza is complicated by the fact that Hamas has been holding one of its soldiers for four years. In addition, Israel does not want Hamas or its associates to gain credit for new relief.

[...]

Egypt, which dislikes Hamas for its Islamist ideology and Iranian backing, imposed the same closing from the south.

The idea was that the West Bank would prosper while Gaza would fester. That has happened, but it has done less to change the power dynamic than expected and has caused much suffering.

[...]

Mr. Hamad of the industries federation estimated that political loyalties in Gaza divided into equal thirds: pro-Hamas, pro-Palestinian Authority and independent, many in the private sector. He has been telling foreign officials that if they helped foster businesses, there could eventually be a majority coalition of non-Hamas parties here.

Under current circumstances, he said, the soil for extremism remained fertile.

First of all, PLEASE TRY to get past the provocative-to-many-here assertion at the beginning of the article that a consensus has formed among most "world powers, anti-Hamas Palestinians in Gaza and some senior Israeli officials advocating a shift" in the embargo policy, because, rightly or wrongly, it has among these groups.

You could start out fiercely arguing the wisdom of this view, but it exists so PLEASE do yourself a favor first and read the entire article excerpt, if not the entire article before doing so.

And please understand, I FULLY UNDERSTAND and sympathize with Israel's dilemma here. Hamas now controls Gaza, and Hamas is pledged to the total destruction of Israel.

This puts Israel between a rock and a hard place.

But the thrust of this article is that the blockade has helped Hamas solidify control of Gaza and concurrently weakened the one large and influential group opposed to them, the Gazan business community.

Israel needs to make to make smarter choices here, for it's own long-term success and security. They are NOT easy choices, but they need to be made.

 

[woolfe9999]

Yup, as much as I support Israel's right to defend itself from a moral standpoint, its policy of trying to isolate Hamas has failed from a pragmatic standpoint. It's definitely time to make an adjustment. One objection I can see to bringing a lot of commerce into the region is that it's more opportunity for Hamas to enrich itself by skimming from every transaction and hence to acquire more arms. Yet it might also stand of chance of moderating the populace in the longer term. If the borders are open and Hamas' corruption keeps goods and services away from the populace as it does in Afghanistan, then they will only have Hamas to blame.

The tougher question is how does Israel ensure it's security from rocket attacks for the time being if they just open up the sea and borders there? My favored solution is anti-rocket technology, selected, surgical airstrikes against rocket sites, and otherwise just tough it out for now.

- wolf

 

[Perknose]

The tougher question is how does Israel ensure it's security from rocket attacks for the time being if they just open up the sea and borders there? My favored solution is anti-rocket technology, selected, surgical airstrikes against rocket sites, and otherwise just tough it out for now.

- wolf

It's a terrible dilemma for Israel and one I do not want to make light of.

 

[nick1985]

The tougher question is how does Israel ensure it's security from rocket attacks for the time being if they just open up the sea and borders there? My favored solution is anti-rocket technology, selected, surgical airstrikes against rocket sites, and otherwise just tough it out for now.

- wolf

What if the rocket sites are in/around schools?

 

[Sinsear]

What if the rocket sites are in/around schools?

Stop it with the nonsense. Hamas would never do that...

 

[Jaskalas]

I'll agree to the notion of ending the blockade, so long as it is combined with the notion that Israel may return fire against rocket attacks and that hundreds if not thousands are inevitably going to die from that response.

 

[flavio]

I'll agree to the notion of ending the blockade, so long as it is combined with the notion that Israel may return fire against rocket attacks and that hundreds if not thousands are inevitably going to die from that response.

On the other hand if Israelis shoot any more Palestinians I'm sure you would approve of hundreds or thousands of Israelis dead in response right?

 

[Jaskalas]

On the other hand if Israelis shoot any more Palestinians I'm sure you would approve of hundreds or thousands of Israelis dead in response right?

I'm aligned with Israel, not Islamic terrorism. I am decidedly biased against those who kill Americans.

 

[PJABBER]

It will be necessary for Israel to determine if they have any alternatives to an outright invasion of Gaza and the forcible removal of Hamas from power.

As mentioned in so many posts here, the lifting of the blockade will enable both the Iranian re-arming of Hamas and the skimming/taxation of all goods by Hamas to gain funds for the purchase of ever more armaments to be used against Israel. There really is no question that this will be the case.

Hamas has shown itself to be a criminally irresponsible party with which to deal with. I don't see any clear path to where they will negotiate in good faith. And they have made absolutely no move to negotiate anything.

Right now Hamas has minimal means for resisting an invasion. If the events in Iran were not so much more important than Gaza, Israel should fully back and expedite a Palestinian Fatah invasion of Gaza and the consolidation of Palestinian government under Fatah.

If this joint invasion happens, it still remains to be seen if Fatah continues on a course toward accommodation with Israel or resumes their own state of war.

As much as anyone can advocate for any non-violent solution, the effectiveness of such an approach will be strictly limited by an empowered Hamas dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the genocide of all Jews.

 

[Genx87]

Yup, as much as I support Israel's right to defend itself from a moral standpoint, its policy of trying to isolate Hamas has failed from a pragmatic standpoint. It's definitely time to make an adjustment. One objection I can see to bringing a lot of commerce into the region is that it's more opportunity for Hamas to enrich itself by skimming from every transaction and hence to acquire more arms. Yet it might also stand of chance of moderating the populace in the longer term. If the borders are open and Hamas' corruption keeps goods and services away from the populace as it does in Afghanistan, then they will only have Hamas to blame.

The tougher question is how does Israel ensure it's security from rocket attacks for the time being if they just open up the sea and borders there? My favored solution is anti-rocket technology, selected, surgical airstrikes against rocket sites, and otherwise just tough it out for now.

- wolf

Has aid helped NK? Honest question. These regimes are totalitarian in nature. Israel and the world could pump billions into Gaza and it would still be a shitheap because Hamas would simply steal it. The populace will still blame Israel even if your idea failed. It is the nature of the beast.

Israel already does a lot of that. The result is an outcry from the world when they blow up a rocket site Hamas setup on top of an elementary school. I for the life of me dont understand why the world falls for this type of tactics over and over.

 

[Noobtastic]

the blockade has failed because it isn't a real blockade.

israel continues to deliver humanitarian aid to hamas, and the thousands of tunnels between the gaza-egypt border are left to their own devices and are rarely attacked unless a rocket emanates from one.

the blockade is the lowest form of passive aggression out there. the next step would another full-scale invasion, and probably a re-occupation.

there is really no end with hamas still in power.

if israel could negotiate hamas away it would do it, but it seems negotiations are merely a way to squeeze more unilateral concessions out of israel and none out of the palestinians.

 

[Narmer]

The world should have given Hamas a chance to govern after it won the elections instead of engineering a coup that backfired and left Hamas in charge of Gaza unopposed. It's like people never learn. To paraphrase Churchill, democracy isn't pretty but it's the best of a bunch of bad choices.

 

[PJABBER]

The world should have given Hamas a chance to govern after it won the elections instead of engineering a coup that backfired and left Hamas in charge of Gaza unopposed. It's like people never learn. To paraphrase Churchill, democracy isn't pretty but it's the best of a bunch of bad choices.

Are you serious?

When should the world community have condemned Hamas? When Hamas started executing the Fatah Palestinians to consolidate their power the traditional not so democratic Palestinian way? When they started shooting off rockets into Israel? When they sent bomb vested suicide bombers against civilian targets? When they instituted hate classes in their schools? When they emplaced munitions dumps and rocket launch sites in schools and hospitals?

The Germans elected the Nazis and Europe and the world gave them plenty of leash as well and look how well that turned out.

By now we should know that when a rogue government is empowered it will lead to more and more abuse of the democratic institutions that enabled it. Under no stretch of the imagination is Hamas running a democratic regime in Gaza, even if the majority of Gazans support their destroy Israel agenda.

The world community seldom cares, much less intervenes until such time as the rogue regimes attack their neighbors, which Hamas got to pretty fast off the starting block. That they happened to attack Israel, well, plenty in the world community cheered that on and still do. So much for peace in our time.

 

[Lemon law]

Confucius says, if you are going to be raped, lie back and enjoy it. You are still raped, its not enjoyable, just ask any female rape victim who are often remain traumatized for life, and both the bad Palestinians of Hamas and the good Palestinians are being raped by Israel.

All we have here is two different rape by Israel responses by the Palestinian people, respond by fighting back or do nothing. Since neither Palestinian leads to any progress, the bigger Israeli worry may be that if it does not quit raping Fatah, they will rejoin Hamas.


I don't know about you, but if I am going to be raped, ya bet your boots, I would fight back against that Israeli rapist. No way Confucius, its human nature to fight back against a rapist.

 

[PJABBER]

It has usually been the Palestinians raping and killing other Palestinians, Arab countries raping and killing Palestinians and way too many uninvolved parties blaming Israel for these self inflicted acts.

The closer we look at the situation, the more apparent it becomes that Israel would much rather be left alone or even engaged in friendly relations with their neighbors. Look at how they gave up Gaza and how they maintain flows of humanitarian support for their neighbors when there is real need.

But the Islamicists and the Arab nationalists and those who would exploit their fanaticism won't let that happen. They have too much to gain in having such a convenient enemy to blame for their own self-hate, inadequacy and eternal jealousy.

 

[bfdd]

Confucius says, if you are going to be raped, lie back and enjoy it. You are still raped, its not enjoyable, just ask any female rape victim who are often remain traumatized for life, and both the bad Palestinians of Hamas and the good Palestinians are being raped by Israel.

All we have here is two different rape by Israel responses by the Palestinian people, respond by fighting back or do nothing. Since neither Palestinian leads to any progress, the bigger Israeli worry may be that if it does not quit raping Fatah, they will rejoin Hamas.


I don't know about you, but if I am going to be raped, ya bet your boots, I would fight back against that Israeli rapist. No way Confucius, its human nature to fight back against a rapist.

shut up you're an idiot, you realize that right? you realize no one here with a brain will even humor what you say anymore after you said what is in IHV's sig.

OP, good article and at the moment I'm inclined to agree because lets be honest it's not working as well as they thought it would. That said if Israel does lax up and try to work with the Palestinians and they get rocketed and there's no blacklash from the Palestinian population they should, without any disapproval of the international community, go into Palestine and destroy everything.

 

[Lemon law]

Pollyanna PBJABBER in all his denial is so delusional as to think, "The closer we look at the situation, the more apparent it becomes that Israel would much rather be left alone or even engaged in friendly relations with their neighbors."

And instead we have to confront the larger 62 year history reality, Israel may want to live and let live, but that ain't never going to happen when Israel continues to be the thief and rapist that will not reform. Israeli peace comes at a obligation to right old wrongs, and without those Israeli reforms, Israel can have perpetual war and hatreds or gain acceptance and peace through reforms. Israel can have one or the other but not BOTH

Learn it and live it PJABBER, your fantasy will never happen, and subsequent events will prove it better than I can say it.

 

[bfdd]

Pollyanna PBJABBER in all his denial is so delusional as to think, "The closer we look at the situation, the more apparent it becomes that Israel would much rather be left alone or even engaged in friendly relations with their neighbors."

And instead we have to confront the larger 62 year history reality, Israel may want to live and let live, but that ain't never going to happen when Israel continues to be the thief and rapist that will not reform. Israeli peace comes at a obligation to right old wrongs, and without those Israeli reforms, Israel can have perpetual war and hatreds or gain acceptance and peace through reforms. Israel can have one or the other but not BOTH

Learn it and live it PJABBER, your fantasy will never happen, and subsequent events will prove it better than I can say it.

Last peace talks Israel seemed content to give up quite a bit in order for peace. How come the Palestinians weren't willing to make the compromise of allowing Israel to exist?

 

[Lemon law]

OK Bfdd, lets address both the IHV signature and what you said in, "shut up you're an idiot, you realize that right? you realize no one here with a brain will even humor what you say anymore after you said what is in IHV's sig."

Lets us somewhat understand, terrorism is always the politics of the powerless, but how is Israeli terrorism, collective punishment military superiority, made more noble than fighting with the weapons you have?

For many years and still somewhat true today, all the Palestinians have are rocks, bottles, a few homemade rockets and suicide bombers to fight for their rights. But if nothing else, when there are no shortage of Palestinians willing to sacrifice their own lives to strike back against Israeli injustice as suicide bombers, why should not that be honored as a measure of Palestinian Patriotism and desperation?

Especially when we compare that to Jewish terrorists perfectly willing to murder others in total cold blood, and survive, like Begin, and Goldie Mier, to become Israel PM?

How many winners of US military medals of honor received those medals posthumously as they gave their lives to save their comrades?

Instead we should ask where was the Israeli honor and nobility of some Israeli pilot who bombed and killed totally innocent Lebanese Christians from the safety of 10,000 feet. If that is the only nobility of high tech and Israeli civilization, its enough to gag a maggot.

 

[nick1985]

Wait, you DON'T think that suicide bombings are uncivilized?


Lemon law, you are fucked in the head. Seek help

 

[nageov3t]

even the Israeli's agree that the blockade needs to be reassessed.

 

[flavio]

I'm aligned with Israel, not Islamic terrorism. I am decidedly biased against those who kill Americans.

I'm not aligned with Israeli or Islamic terrorism.

 

[Freshgeardude]

For many years and still somewhat true today, all the Palestinians have are rocks, bottles, a few homemade rockets and suicide bombers to fight for their rights. But if nothing else, when there are no shortage of Palestinians willing to sacrifice their own lives to strike back against Israeli injustice as suicide bombers, why should not that be honored as a measure of Palestinian Patriotism and desperation?

ONLY rockets and suicide bombers.... only.

tell that to the hundreds that have died from the hand of suicide bombers and the millions, quite possibly billions, in damages the rockets have cost.

Palestinians willing to sacrafice their own life do it in the name of Islam. They are Jihadists, extremists, mental cases. They are uneducated retards who are mules to their "cause."

I, an educated individual, do not believe in 72 virgins in heaven. I do not want to have 20 kids to have 10 of them at the age of 10 blow themselves up. I do not celebrate death, i mourn the dead. I am a real person, with common emotions like 5 billion others in the world. (1 billion is islam)

 

[Freshgeardude]

I'm not aligned with Israeli or Islamic terrorism.

but you defend islamic terrorists.

 

[Noobtastic]

Wait, you DON'T think that suicide bombings are uncivilized?


Lemon law, you are fucked in the head. Seek help

he also doesn't know history:

nstead we should ask where was the Israeli honor and nobility of some Israeli pilot who bombed and killed totally innocent Lebanese Christians from the safety of 10,000 feet. If that is the only nobility of high tech and Israeli civilization, its enough to gag a maggot.

"Lebanese christians" were largely immune to the lebanon wars because israel was against shia and PLO movements.

all areas bombed in lebanon were shia/hezbollah controlled, almost completely avoid of christians.

which is why lebanese christians like israel and hate hezbollah more, than...well - pretty much every other arab demographic with the exception of israel's Arab population.

it doesn't take a genius to tell the difference between bombing terrorists and terrorists hiding behind women, children, or *christians* to inflate casualties and exploit an enemies ROE.

people like you merely encourage it.