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Ottonomous

Senior member
May 15, 2014
559
292
136
I don't have much to add to the absurdity of the OP, however, psychiatry is far from effectively internal medicine.
I was referring to their training path, at least outside the US, foundation year for instance, core training, then specialty training where they branch off
 

FirNaTine

Senior member
Jun 6, 2005
637
182
116
First things first, this story is really screwed up if it's even close to what's bring alleged. I'd be interested if there's any camera footage (body or other) to verify that the officers didn't even speak to the people arrested to investigate like alleged. The fact that the charges were already dismissed leads me to believe the restaurant staff for now though.

As far as the retired physician thing, it shouldn't really matter. Any person checking on what could be an assault/kidnapping/medical emergency/overdose/etc should be relatively safe in doing so. Especially if they're the owner/management of the premises. Allowing two hostile folks to drag a third unconscious person away doesn't require any training to sense that the person may be in danger if left behind.

But, at 68 he could have been 40+ years out of medical school and looking at basics of emergency care and assessment. It also doesn't say how long he's been retired. And psychiatry is a broad field. He might have still been heavily clinically involved, or he might not have. I've interacted with physicians on emergency scenes, and it's been a decidedly mixed bag, depending on the individual doc.

I remember one (dermatologist I think) being on scene of a very bad motorcycle accident years ago. The patient had an obviously fractured (angulated) upper arm. He had no pulse in that arm and a significant amount of skin loss and embedded debris. The doc was working to treat the arm. I assessed the patient and found slow, irregular breathing, (which we began assisting) and a slow but strong pulse in other arm (and wide difference in upper and lower numbers when I checked BP a minute or two later).

I told the doc, to quickly wrap the arm or politlely get out of the way, we needed to leave for a nearby trauma center. (You've got a few hours to restore a pulse to a long before it's likely to be lost). He began to argue a bit, concerned over loss of the arm, and infection, and I said he's showing Cushing's Triad ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cushing_reflex#Cushing's_Triad ) and the doc didn't answer. I said Doc it looks like his brain is herniating (trying to squeeze our the base of to skull as it's usually the only exit when bleeding raises pressure inside the skull). There was a brief flicker of recognition and then silent assent to a literal life over limb decision.

As it turns out, to patient died a short time later, before arrival at the trauma center. We did CPR for a bit to get there, but he had sustained too extensive injury.

I talked with the trauma docs after to see if there was something I missed, and they assured me that I'd made the appropriate call, and that the physician on scene was likely reacting to what he was most comfortable treating out of the injuries.

Even so, short of an active paramedic or emergency/critical care nurse, I'd take the chance on them being better than a bystander, and possibly being a wonderful clinician depending on their actual experience.
 
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Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,960
782
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... the officers didn't even speak to the people arrested to investigate like alleged. The fact that the charges were already dismissed leads me to believe the restaurant staff for now though.

The only thing that would make sense about this is that one of the officers were friends with or related to one of the women.
 

FirNaTine

Senior member
Jun 6, 2005
637
182
116
The only thing that would make sense about this is that one of the officers were friends with or related to one of the women.

Agreed. I didn't consider that. The only other time I've seen a quick arrest like that (for anything close to legitimate reason) was a domestic assault, where they already knew the couple qualified (married, live together, kid together, etc might vary slightly by state) and there's visible injuries to only one party... A number of states and or agencies have gone to basically automatic and mandatory arrests.

An officer usually enjoys some protection from false arrest claims if there's a good faith mistake. But, that's not endless.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,136
30,085
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Psychiatrists are physicians who specialize in psychiatric medicine.

Yes but when you've got someone in an airplane that needs an emergency apendectomy, asking around for "a doctor" doesn't really translate to psychiatrist. Nor does asking around for a "doctor" translate into someone with a PhD in neoclassical literature or immunology. (yes, I know: "physician." I still had to go there) :D
 

Josephus312

Senior member
Aug 10, 2018
586
172
71
Yes but when you've got someone in an airplane that needs an emergency apendectomy, asking around for "a doctor" doesn't really translate to psychiatrist. Nor does asking around for a "doctor" translate into someone with a PhD in neoclassical literature or immunology. (yes, I know: "physician." I still had to go there) :D

You would need a surgeon for that. Most MD's would be about as qualified as a Psychiatrist to perform that procedure.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
Am I racist if I point out that lawsuit allegations are just that, allegations? I usually default back to the premise that most folks will bend the truth to justify their actions, or win in court. I hope this case goes to trial and the judge and jury are up to the task of ferreting out the truth to whatever degree possible. If the cops did something wrong they shouldn't be able to spend taxpayer money to make it go away. Nor should racism claims lead to a quick cash settlement because it's cheaper than going to court. Or am I expecting too much when I hope the truth comes out?
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,601
11,289
136
Am I racist if I point out that lawsuit allegations are just that, allegations? I usually default back to the premise that most folks will bend the truth to justify their actions, or win in court. I hope this case goes to trial and the judge and jury are up to the task of ferreting out the truth to whatever degree possible. If the cops did something wrong they shouldn't be able to spend taxpayer money to make it go away. Nor should racism claims lead to a quick cash settlement because it's cheaper than going to court. Or am I expecting too much when I hope the truth comes out?

It depends on what you mean by "racist" really. You spent ages on the Starbucks thread telling us that you'd want to be absolutely certain before labelling someone as racist, and how it's so bad to just assume, only to then call the OP racist and then run off without an explanation or apology to @esquared when I called you out on it.

IMO you're just concern trolling. At least, that's the only explanation that I can come up with that makes any kind of sense. If so, it would be nice to know the honest reason why you're doing it, but I know that won't be forthcoming.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
It depends on what you mean by "racist" really. You spent ages on the Starbucks thread telling us that you'd want to be absolutely certain before labelling someone as racist, and how it's so bad to just assume, only to then call the OP racist and then run off without an explanation or apology to @esquared when I called you out on it.

IMO you're just concern trolling. At least, that's the only explanation that I can come up with that makes any kind of sense. If so, it would be nice to know the honest reason why you're doing it, but I know that won't be forthcoming.
I explained myself in that Starbucks thread more times than I care to remember, and I owe no one an apology for what I said. If someone automatically believes one side of an argument over the other based on race then it is racism and wrong.

I've still seen nothing to convince me that the manager was doing anything other than enforcing a flawed company policy when she asked those men to buy something or leave. Nor that the cops were in any way racially motivated when they arrested those men for failing to leave after they were given a legal order to do so.

Starbucks pulled off a masterful bit of PR to retain their market share of our coffee addiction, but that doesn't mean the incident was racially motivated in any way.

And I am a journalist by profession, trained to be skeptical of any and all claims in pursuit of the truth. When a story is blindly believed because it fits the desired narrative I find it disheartening. My experience is just about everyone will bend their story a bit to their own advantage.

Or maybe I'm just racist, you tell me, or believe what you want if you have some narrative to push.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,730
28,908
136
If people think that this is a one off, black professionals having to double proof themselves vs their white counterparts, I give you exhibit B...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ggers-a-policy-change/?utm_term=.ff8406ddb281
In October, physician Tamika Cross took a Delta Air Lines flight home from the wedding of a childhood friend. A man fell ill and a call went out for medical help. But when Cross tried to come to his aid, a flight attendant dismissed the young, black doctor. "We are looking for actual physicians or nurses,"

I think they meant, "is there a white doctor in the house?"
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,635
3,509
136
How does that make them essentially internal medicine docs?

It makes them essentially qualified to deal with someone having a medical emergency. Definitely more than drunk/passed out lady's racist friends.

I can't imagine how this cop expected someone to react to an unconscious person getting dragged across the floor of their business.
 
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TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,090
136
It makes them essentially qualified to deal with someone having a medical emergency. Definitely more than drunk/passed out lady's racist friends.

I can't imagine how this cop expected someone to react to an unconscious person getting dragged across the floor of their business.

I don't disagree that he was capable of evaluating the patron which is why I said the situation in the OP was absurd. I simply contend that a psychiatrist is not essentially an Internist. That's it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
6,351
126
I don't disagree that he was capable of evaluating the patron which is why I said the situation in the OP was absurd. I simply contend that a psychiatrist is not essentially an Internist. That's it.
Yeah, you caused quite an uproar. I was going to mention the owner isn’t a frog but now I'm glad I didn’t.
 
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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,037
2,615
136
I was referring to their training path, at least outside the US, foundation year for instance, core training, then specialty training where they branch off
The complete the same 4 year medical school as everyone else. They do a year of an internal medicine residency, then branch off and do 3-4 years of psychiatry.

If you think about clinical trials for medications for depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, etc they are the ones running the trials and helping companies develop and implement the drugs.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
Something else to think about, it would seem dram shop laws apply which would entirely justify the owner from keeping the ladies from leaving at least until a cab had been called and arrived. The police were flat out wrong whether racist or not.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,280
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I explained myself in that Starbucks thread more times than I care to remember, and I owe no one an apology for what I said. If someone automatically believes one side of an argument over the other based on race then it is racism and wrong.

I've still seen nothing to convince me that the manager was doing anything other than enforcing a flawed company policy when she asked those men to buy something or leave. Nor that the cops were in any way racially motivated when they arrested those men for failing to leave after they were given a legal order to do so.

Starbucks pulled off a masterful bit of PR to retain their market share of our coffee addiction, but that doesn't mean the incident was racially motivated in any way.

And I am a journalist by profession, trained to be skeptical of any and all claims in pursuit of the truth. When a story is blindly believed because it fits the desired narrative I find it disheartening. My experience is just about everyone will bend their story a bit to their own advantage.

Or maybe I'm just racist, you tell me, or believe what you want if you have some narrative to push.

Fox News I take it? Because you sure as shit push your own fucking narrative a fucking shitload in threads. And I know you've definitely been willing to not even consider other factors in a story before making up your mind (the one about the kid yelling at the teacher comes to mind). Which, hey, absolutely people do that quite naturally, but you acting like you're above that and more objective than anyone is complete bullshit.

Is this another case like eits claiming to be the official chiropractor for the Washington Redskins? Because your claim of being a professional journalist reeks of bullshit.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
Fox News I take it? Because you sure as shit push your own fucking narrative a fucking shitload in threads. And I know you've definitely been willing to not even consider other factors in a story before making up your mind (the one about the kid yelling at the teacher comes to mind). Which, hey, absolutely people do that quite naturally, but you acting like you're above that and more objective than anyone is complete bullshit.

Is this another case like eits claiming to be the official chiropractor for the Washington Redskins? Because your claim of being a professional journalist reeks of bullshit.


Paladin3 is one of the most middle of the road posters on here. I’m just not getting some of these attacks. The guy maintains a healthy degree of scepticism which is something that would benefit society as a whole if there were more and he’s trounced on. Some of you are terrified of anything breaching your echo chamber. Wrong Think might poison the partisan purity.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,601
11,289
136
Paladin3 is one of the most middle of the road posters on here. I’m just not getting some of these attacks. The guy maintains a healthy degree of scepticism which is something that would benefit society as a whole if there were more and he’s trounced on. Some of you are terrified of anything breaching your echo chamber. Wrong Think might poison the partisan purity.

"a healthy degree of scepticism": you're talking about a situation whereby the police department has acted exactly as anyone with a functioning brain could have predicted, there's going to be multiple witnesses and likely CCTV footage. What's to be healthily sceptical about? While I don't treat any single narrative like a true believer would the word of their god, I haven't read anything that suggests the story isn't probably factual. Have you?

I'm all for healthy discourse with people of diverse opinions, it's a great way to examine situations from multiple perspectives and maybe learn new things. But healthy discourse involves conceding a point that one is incorrect about, rather than running away because one has made a fool of themselves (which is why I mentioned the Starbucks thread). Paladin3 preached cool evaluation of the evidence and a passion for the truth, yet even in this thread did neither: This thread has one news source for this story and that's it, he couldn't at least look for another in his pursuit for truth? While I wouldn't expect tonnes of independent news sources investigating it (because it's not particularly juicy or remarkable, relatively speaking), I'm sure there's more than one, yet Mr "I'm a journalist too!" lounged back in his armchair and preached "healthy scepticism" and "hoping the truth will come out", because that's exactly what you'd expect from someone with a passion for that profession, isn't it? That's just aside from the fact that the only question he asked was to bait people with his "am I racist" BS. Frankly IMO that's really pathetic, but it pales in comparison to the ways he acted on the Starbucks thread.
 
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