More Hypocrisy out of 'Dean Camp' w/ Secret Energy Meetings

Jan 12, 2003
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Warning: Clicking on this FoxNews Link May Cause You To Become A NeoCon.

WASHINGTON ? Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean, who has criticized the Bush administration for refusing to release the deliberations of its energy policy task force, as governor of Vermont convened a similar panel that met in secret and angered state lawmakers....

Dean said he still believes it was necessary to keep his task force's deliberations secret, especially because the group was reviewing proprietary financial data from Vermont utilities. "Some advice does have to be given in private, but I don't mind letting people know who gave that advice," he said.

An expert in political rhetoric said it was risky for Dean to attack Bush and Cheney on an issue where he was vulnerable.

"In general, what is good for the vice president should be good for the governor. A candidate who attacks on grounds he is vulnerable is foolish," said Kathleen Hall Jamieson, a University of Pennsylvania professor who helps run a Web site that compares presidential candidates' rhetoric with the facts.
 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Warning: Clicking on this FoxNews Link May Cause You To Become A NeoCon.

WASHINGTON ? Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean, who has criticized the Bush administration for refusing to release the deliberations of its energy policy task force, as governor of Vermont convened a similar panel that met in secret and angered state lawmakers....

Dean said he still believes it was necessary to keep his task force's deliberations secret, especially because the group was reviewing proprietary financial data from Vermont utilities. "Some advice does have to be given in private, but I don't mind letting people know who gave that advice," he said.

An expert in political rhetoric said it was risky for Dean to attack Bush and Cheney on an issue where he was vulnerable.

"In general, what is good for the vice president should be good for the governor. A candidate who attacks on grounds he is vulnerable is foolish," said Kathleen Hall Jamieson, a University of Pennsylvania professor who helps run a Web site that compares presidential candidates' rhetoric with the facts.
Hypocrisy from the Dems and out right lies from the Administration. Again it looks like the choice for President comes down to the lessor of two Weasals!
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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JohnGalt, I'm going against my own best interests here to keep this thread afloat. One of the things that distinguishes the Bush Admin from Dean's is that the BA has refused to reveal the names of people and organizations with whom they met.

Two posts today. This one from Fox News and the previous one from the Weekly Standard. Glad to see you're starting to balance your news sources!
 
Jan 12, 2003
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Originally posted by: Whitling


Two posts today. This one from Fox News and the previous one from the Weekly Standard. Glad to see you're starting to balance your news sources!
If you search my previous posts, you would discover that I normally use CNN as a source, as it is widely accepted on here as the only "fair and balanced" news source; that said, however, the aforementioned "fair and balanced" source seems to have decided not to run a number of storied that point out the hypocrisies of Dean/France.
 

busmaster11

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Mar 4, 2000
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Did you guys even bother to read further? No? I guess Neocons read what you want to read...

Dean said his group developed better policy in a bipartisan manner, seeking advice not just from energy executives but environmentalists and advocates for the poor. He said his task force was more open because it held a public hearing and divulged afterward the names of people it consulted even though deliberations were held in secret.

[snip]

Dean's campaign said it was "laughable" to equate the two panels.

"Governor Dean confronted and averted an energy crisis that would have had disastrous consequences for the citizens of Vermont by bringing together a bipartisan and ideologically diverse working group that solved the problem," spokesman Jay Carson said Sunday.

"Dick Cheney put together a group of his corporate cronies and partisan political contributors, and they gave themselves billions and disguised it as a national energy policy."

In September, Dean argued that the task force Cheney assembled in 2001 and the Bush energy policy that were unduly influenced by Bush family friend and Enron energy chief Kenneth Lay. He demanded that records of its deliberations be made public.
 
Jan 12, 2003
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Sorry, but I skipped what the "Dean Camp" had to say, as most of it is lies anyway. I think his 4-Star General brother, who was a POW in 'Nam was also present at the meetings...
 

busmaster11

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Mar 4, 2000
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Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Sorry, but I skipped what the "Dean Camp" had to say, as most of it is lies anyway. I think his 4-Star General brother, who was a POW in 'Nam was also present at the meetings...
So I guess you haven't bothered to check up on the story and just assumed that anything called "secret energy meetings" are one and the same, huh? Typical..

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
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Originally posted by: busmaster11
Did you guys even bother to read further? No? I guess Neocons read what you want to read...

Dean said his group developed better policy in a bipartisan manner, seeking advice not just from energy executives but environmentalists and advocates for the poor. He said his task force was more open because it held a public hearing and divulged afterward the names of people it consulted even though deliberations were held in secret.

[snip]

Dean's campaign said it was "laughable" to equate the two panels.

"Governor Dean confronted and averted an energy crisis that would have had disastrous consequences for the citizens of Vermont by bringing together a bipartisan and ideologically diverse working group that solved the problem," spokesman Jay Carson said Sunday.

"Dick Cheney put together a group of his corporate cronies and partisan political contributors, and they gave themselves billions and disguised it as a national energy policy."

In September, Dean argued that the task force Cheney assembled in 2001 and the Bush energy policy that were unduly influenced by Bush family friend and Enron energy chief Kenneth Lay. He demanded that records of its deliberations be made public.
Hehe - Yeah so his weren't "quite as secret" :p And that's somehow OK? I thought dean stood for "openness"? Guess only when it doesn't have to do with his own things.

The second bolded part is meaningless as it is purely slanted rhetoric.

CkG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
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busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Had to dig for it but it seems they too printed the AP story.

So now we have the trifecta - CNN, ABC, and FOX - It must be true. Reuters.com however does not have this story so you people across the pond are free to dismiss this story.:)

CkG
Same secret energy policy meetings indeed...
Dean's group volunteered the names of those it consulted with in its final report.

While Cheney has refused to formally give a list to Congress to preserve the White House's right to private advice, known as executive privilege, his aides have divulged to reporters the names of many of those from whom the task force sought advice.

The Bush-Cheney campaign and Republican Party received millions in donations from energy interests in the election before its task force was created.

Dean's Vermont re-election campaign received only small contributions from energy executives.

But a political action committee created as he prepared to run for president collected $19,000, or nearly a fifth of its first $110,000, from donors tied to Vermont's electric utilities.


19K in contributions for Vermont... Might I venture a guess that with anything involving Cheney and Kenneth Lay, prez of Enron, its chump change...
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Had to dig for it but it seems they too printed the AP story.

So now we have the trifecta - CNN, ABC, and FOX - It must be true. Reuters.com however does not have this story so you people across the pond are free to dismiss this story.:)

CkG
Same secret energy policy meetings indeed...
Dean's group volunteered the names of those it consulted with in its final report.

While Cheney has refused to formally give a list to Congress to preserve the White House's right to private advice, known as executive privilege, his aides have divulged to reporters the names of many of those from whom the task force sought advice.

The Bush-Cheney campaign and Republican Party received millions in donations from energy interests in the election before its task force was created.

Dean's Vermont re-election campaign received only small contributions from energy executives.

But a political action committee created as he prepared to run for president collected $19,000, or nearly a fifth of its first $110,000, from donors tied to Vermont's electric utilities.


19K in contributions for Vermont... Might I venture a guess that with anything involving Cheney and Kenneth Lay, prez of Enron, its chump change...
Like I said - "Hehe - Yeah so his weren't "quite as secret" And that's somehow OK? I thought dean stood for "openness"? Guess only when it doesn't have to do with his own things."

Bleat all you want about trying to defend dean by saying Bush/Cheney did it too or did it "worstester" but the simple facts are that dean has now atleast twice tried to attack Bush on things - only to have been guilty of the same/similar things.

Oh wait - make that 3 - something about captive insurance companies...Enron...Bemuda...
Hmm....

CkG
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Had to dig for it but it seems they too printed the AP story.

So now we have the trifecta - CNN, ABC, and FOX - It must be true. Reuters.com however does not have this story so you people across the pond are free to dismiss this story.:)

CkG
Same secret energy policy meetings indeed...
Dean's group volunteered the names of those it consulted with in its final report.

While Cheney has refused to formally give a list to Congress to preserve the White House's right to private advice, known as executive privilege, his aides have divulged to reporters the names of many of those from whom the task force sought advice.

The Bush-Cheney campaign and Republican Party received millions in donations from energy interests in the election before its task force was created.

Dean's Vermont re-election campaign received only small contributions from energy executives.

But a political action committee created as he prepared to run for president collected $19,000, or nearly a fifth of its first $110,000, from donors tied to Vermont's electric utilities.


19K in contributions for Vermont... Might I venture a guess that with anything involving Cheney and Kenneth Lay, prez of Enron, its chump change...
Like I said - "Hehe - Yeah so his weren't "quite as secret" And that's somehow OK? I thought dean stood for "openness"? Guess only when it doesn't have to do with his own things."

Bleat all you want about trying to defend dean by saying Bush/Cheney did it too or did it "worstester" but the simple facts are that dean has now atleast twice tried to attack Bush on things - only to have been guilty of the same/similar things.

Oh wait - make that 3 - something about captive insurance companies...Enron...Bemuda...
Hmm....

CkG
Cad, judging b your post count and your frequency here I'd say you've spewed way too long to be able to tell right from wrong. Are these quotes from the Dean campaign and therefore rhetoric? No. These are facts, unless you want to dig deeper and disprove them.

And by the way, I would hope you never have and never will post accusatory quotes from your party or agenda, because as you claim, it would therefore be rhetoric and completely unreliable.

Maybe you should try objectivity for a change - ignoring the facts doesn't make you look smarter.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Had to dig for it but it seems they too printed the AP story.

So now we have the trifecta - CNN, ABC, and FOX - It must be true. Reuters.com however does not have this story so you people across the pond are free to dismiss this story.:)

CkG
Same secret energy policy meetings indeed...
Dean's group volunteered the names of those it consulted with in its final report.

While Cheney has refused to formally give a list to Congress to preserve the White House's right to private advice, known as executive privilege, his aides have divulged to reporters the names of many of those from whom the task force sought advice.

The Bush-Cheney campaign and Republican Party received millions in donations from energy interests in the election before its task force was created.

Dean's Vermont re-election campaign received only small contributions from energy executives.

But a political action committee created as he prepared to run for president collected $19,000, or nearly a fifth of its first $110,000, from donors tied to Vermont's electric utilities.


19K in contributions for Vermont... Might I venture a guess that with anything involving Cheney and Kenneth Lay, prez of Enron, its chump change...
Like I said - "Hehe - Yeah so his weren't "quite as secret" And that's somehow OK? I thought dean stood for "openness"? Guess only when it doesn't have to do with his own things."

Bleat all you want about trying to defend dean by saying Bush/Cheney did it too or did it "worstester" but the simple facts are that dean has now atleast twice tried to attack Bush on things - only to have been guilty of the same/similar things.

Oh wait - make that 3 - something about captive insurance companies...Enron...Bemuda...
Hmm....

CkG
Cad, judging b your post count and your frequency here I'd say you've spewed way too long to be able to tell right from wrong. Are these quotes from the Dean campaign and therefore rhetoric? No. These are facts, unless you want to dig deeper and disprove them.

And by the way, I would hope you never have and never will post accusatory quotes from your party or agenda, because as you claim, it would therefore be rhetoric and completely unreliable.

Maybe you should try objectivity for a change - ignoring the facts doesn't make you look smarter.
/me ducks and then dodges

See - I can do it too.:D

I don't care what you or anyone tries to say Cheney did or compare how much campaign money either of them recieved - it's all EXCUSES and damage control at this point in the game.
dean is the one attacking Bush/Cheney and accusing them of things.
dean should have remembered his own dealings when picking his attacking points and positioned his accusations better so this sort of thing wouldn't happen.
I guess dean really isn't the straight honest shooter he's propped up to be.

But it sure was a nice try at trying to discredit me - kudos to you:) Maybe next time you can stick to the subject...which isn't me:D

CkG
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Had to dig for it but it seems they too printed the AP story.

So now we have the trifecta - CNN, ABC, and FOX - It must be true. Reuters.com however does not have this story so you people across the pond are free to dismiss this story.:)

CkG
Same secret energy policy meetings indeed...
Dean's group volunteered the names of those it consulted with in its final report.

While Cheney has refused to formally give a list to Congress to preserve the White House's right to private advice, known as executive privilege, his aides have divulged to reporters the names of many of those from whom the task force sought advice.

The Bush-Cheney campaign and Republican Party received millions in donations from energy interests in the election before its task force was created.

Dean's Vermont re-election campaign received only small contributions from energy executives.

But a political action committee created as he prepared to run for president collected $19,000, or nearly a fifth of its first $110,000, from donors tied to Vermont's electric utilities.


19K in contributions for Vermont... Might I venture a guess that with anything involving Cheney and Kenneth Lay, prez of Enron, its chump change...
Like I said - "Hehe - Yeah so his weren't "quite as secret" And that's somehow OK? I thought dean stood for "openness"? Guess only when it doesn't have to do with his own things."

Bleat all you want about trying to defend dean by saying Bush/Cheney did it too or did it "worstester" but the simple facts are that dean has now atleast twice tried to attack Bush on things - only to have been guilty of the same/similar things.

Oh wait - make that 3 - something about captive insurance companies...Enron...Bemuda...
Hmm....

CkG
Cad, judging b your post count and your frequency here I'd say you've spewed way too long to be able to tell right from wrong. Are these quotes from the Dean campaign and therefore rhetoric? No. These are facts, unless you want to dig deeper and disprove them.

And by the way, I would hope you never have and never will post accusatory quotes from your party or agenda, because as you claim, it would therefore be rhetoric and completely unreliable.

Maybe you should try objectivity for a change - ignoring the facts doesn't make you look smarter.
/me ducks and then dodges

See - I can do it too.:D

I don't care what you or anyone tries to say Cheney did or compare how much campaign money either of them recieved - it's all EXCUSES and damage control at this point in the game.
dean is the one attacking Bush/Cheney and accusing them of things.
dean should have remembered his own dealings when picking his attacking points and positioned his accusations better so this sort of thing wouldn't happen.
I guess dean really isn't the straight honest shooter he's propped up to be.

But it sure was a nice try at trying to discredit me - kudos to you:) Maybe next time you can stick to the subject...which isn't me:D

CkG
The subject is hypocrisy - don't believe me? read the title. My point is there isn't any because this is clearly apples and oranges.

And is it really an excuse when there's a vast difference between the two events? IE MONEY and WHO's INVOLVED?

Did you even bother to read the quote? Good job discrediting yourself, Cad.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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0
Galt and CAD,

The fact that neither of you are willing to discuss the very substance of this issue is very telling. Come on. There are young impressionable people here and you have an image to uphold.

If you see something I don't, I'm willing to concede - as I've already done today in your mad cow thread.

So tell me again, CAD, why is it that you believe that the obvious descrepancies in money, attendees, and disclosures should all be considered irrelevant in this case?

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Galt and CAD,

The fact that neither of you are willing to discuss the very substance of this issue is very telling. Come on. There are young impressionable people here and you have an image to uphold.

If you see something I don't, I'm willing to concede - as I've already done today in your mad cow thread.

So tell me again, CAD, why is it that you believe that the obvious descrepancies in money, attendees, and disclosures should all be considered irrelevant in this case?
I told you. dean keeps trying to blast Bush for things yet has done similar(same) things himself. dean had "secret" meetings with people on policy - so did Cheney. dean blasts Cheney for "secret" meetings and calls for "open government". He must have forgotten that he himself had "secret" meetings on policy. Like I said - you can try to lessen the degree of hypocracy if you wish by saying Cheney was "worstester":p but it doesn't change the fact that dean would blast dean if dean were Cheney. Got it?

THAT is the substance - not some "contribution" or whatever other things you try to bring into this.

CkG
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Galt and CAD,

The fact that neither of you are willing to discuss the very substance of this issue is very telling. Come on. There are young impressionable people here and you have an image to uphold.

If you see something I don't, I'm willing to concede - as I've already done today in your mad cow thread.

So tell me again, CAD, why is it that you believe that the obvious descrepancies in money, attendees, and disclosures should all be considered irrelevant in this case?
I don't remember if you were active in P&N then or not, but be warned that Sir Cad is intransigent about equating things like this . . . when it is to his benefit to do so. Sir Cad spent thousands of words fiercly insisting he could equate Bush's invasion to Clinton's four-day bombing run. I don't even remember anyone on the right supporting him, but that didn't seem to discourage him a bit.

Best wishes, you've got your work cut out for you.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
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JohnGalt, Thread Title "More Hypocrisy." Yo!, Help here John. What was the first hypocrasy?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Galt and CAD,

The fact that neither of you are willing to discuss the very substance of this issue is very telling. Come on. There are young impressionable people here and you have an image to uphold.

If you see something I don't, I'm willing to concede - as I've already done today in your mad cow thread.

So tell me again, CAD, why is it that you believe that the obvious descrepancies in money, attendees, and disclosures should all be considered irrelevant in this case?
I don't remember if you were active in P&N then or not, but be warned that Sir Cad is intransigent about equating things like this . . . when it is to his benefit to do so. Sir Cad spent thousands of words fiercly insisting he could equate Bush's invasion to Clinton's four-day bombing run. I don't even remember anyone on the right supporting him, but that didn't seem to discourage him a bit.

Best wishes, you've got your work cut out for you.
Yep - and you still don't understand the argument that was being made. It was not "equating" as you suggest. Nice try though.

CkG
 

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