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More good news from GM, Ford

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SigArms08

Member
Apr 16, 2008
181
0
0
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Whipper I wish the big 3 didn't suck but they do. It's time to trim the fat. Maybe their engineers can help the US in better companies.
I wish that your prejudice didn't completely blind you to some facts posted earlier:
2008 initial quality, JD powers gives Pontiac's Grand Prix the top award for large cars(http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...ing/page-#page-anchor).
2008 Initial Quality for Midsize cars went to Chevy Malibu and the Ford Fusion was right behind it http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...y-category/midsize-car

Stating that they "suck" implies everything is terrible. GM has been making incredible strides this past decade. Its too bad that the management of yesterday drove the company into this crap position. Don't get me wrong, they still have a ways to go, but the two examples provided above deserve some credit.
You can also conveniently glaze over the 2008 Motor Trend Car of the Year award going to Cadillac for their CTS. http://www.motortrend.com/ofth...adillac_cts/index.html

Its truly sad that you're not willing to do the slightest bit of research to find some good products coming out of these companies.

 

AAman

Golden Member
May 29, 2001
1,432
0
0
Because we don't believe the have good products- even if they have good large and mid-size cars- WHAT THE FUCK have they been thinking for 35 years since the first oil crisis? I want them all out of business so we can start over with brand new companies and not these corrupt, inefficient bastards that have bribed our politicians and raped our environment for decades. American sucks because of companies like these. Note- my family successfully sued Ford in the 1980s because of a shit vehicle they sold us after they refused to admit their poor quality control and worthless/non-existent production standards. It took years, and money we did not have, before they squealed and paid off everything (including legal costs).
 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
Originally posted by: AAman
Because we don't believe the have good products- even if they have good large and mid-size cars- WHAT THE FUCK have they been thinking for 35 years since the first oil crisis? I want them all out of business so we can start over with brand new companies and not these corrupt, inefficient bastards that have bribed our politicians and raped our environment for decades. American sucks because of companies like these. Note- my family successfully sued Ford in the 1980s because of a shit vehicle they sold us after they refused to admit their poor quality control and worthless/non-existent production standards. It took years, and money we did not have, before they squealed and paid off everything (including legal costs).
They have been thinking lets build and SELL cars, they have been in business for 100 years.


Democrat?
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Maybe someone here can explain to me how GM is supposed to make it through for another year.

- They have about 20B in cash reserves, but they lost 16B in Q2 and Q3 seems like it'll be as bad or worse.
- Their sales are plunging.
- Their credit rating is B- and there is a credit crisis, so whatever credit access they have must be very expensive.
- Their market cap is 2.8B, which is essentially nothing.

And they are merging with Chrysler?! Is there a 2-for-1 deal on bankruptcies or something?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
Originally posted by: SigArms08
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Whipper I wish the big 3 didn't suck but they do. It's time to trim the fat. Maybe their engineers can help the US in better companies.
I wish that your prejudice didn't completely blind you to some facts posted earlier:
2008 initial quality, JD powers gives Pontiac's Grand Prix the top award for large cars(http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...ing/page-#page-anchor).
2008 Initial Quality for Midsize cars went to Chevy Malibu and the Ford Fusion was right behind it http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...y-category/midsize-car

Stating that they "suck" implies everything is terrible. GM has been making incredible strides this past decade. Its too bad that the management of yesterday drove the company into this crap position. Don't get me wrong, they still have a ways to go, but the two examples provided above deserve some credit.
You can also conveniently glaze over the 2008 Motor Trend Car of the Year award going to Cadillac for their CTS. http://www.motortrend.com/ofth...adillac_cts/index.html

Its truly sad that you're not willing to do the slightest bit of research to find some good products coming out of these companies.
And truly sad that you cannot see the forest for the trees. While you obsess over minutiae that's barely relevant here--build quality of their cars, which has gotten better and I never said it hasn't--you're missing the fact that management and liabilities for these companies is what is dooming them. Their entire business and structure is the problem, not necessarily their product at this point (although they have been nailed hard recently with product mix, more so than their competitors).
 

nergee

Senior member
Jan 25, 2000
843
0
0
Initial quality studies.....everything's great after 90 days...how about a dependability
rating...say after 3 years? What does that list look like???
 

wwswimming

Banned
Jan 21, 2006
3,702
1
0
maybe they will declare themselves to be banks, so they can have a share in
the Bailout of the Week/ Weak.
 

SoundTheSurrender

Diamond Member
Mar 13, 2005
3,126
0
0
They want to merge with Chrysler because then they can be too big to fail.

Any car is decent for the first year or 2. Long-term is where American cars start shitting.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
31,404
4,042
126
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Get a grip. They'll survive. GM and Ford have worldwide markets. While it may take some time for them to become profitable again, in time they'll pull though. They are not new to the rodeo and have faced similar declines in business before.
I have my own reason to hope GM doesn't go bankrupt. I bought a GMAC $20,000 bond, 2002, 15 year maturity. It was AAA when I bought it (8% return annually), but it's junk now. It's callable now, but doubt they'd ever call it before maturity, which is 15 years from 2002, being 2017. If GM goes bankrupt, I figure there's a good chance I won't get a good chunk of my principal back. If this merger goes through, my odds are much better, I figure. I just got my statement, and it appears that on Sept. 30th, the bond was worth less than $7000. Since the markets have hemorrhaged so badly since, I might not be able to sell it for more than 5-6000 bucks. Of course, the news of the GM/Cerberus merger talks have surfaced since then, so who knows? Presumably, if a merger is initiated, GM's much less likely to file for bankruptcy.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
31,404
4,042
126
Originally posted by: wwswimming
maybe they will declare themselves to be banks, so they can have a share in
the Bailout of the Week/ Weak.
GM and other Detroit automakers (Chrysler? Ford?) were bailed out to the tune of $25 billion a week or two. I guess it's a loan? It was a package promised a year or so ago, but not finalized until just days ago.
 

venkman

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2007
4,950
11
81
Originally posted by: Muse
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Get a grip. They'll survive. GM and Ford have worldwide markets. While it may take some time for them to become profitable again, in time they'll pull though. They are not new to the rodeo and have faced similar declines in business before.
I have my own reason to hope GM doesn't go bankrupt. I bought a GMAC $20,000 bond, 2002, 15 year maturity. It was AAA when I bought it (8% return annually), but it's junk now. It's callable now, but doubt they'd ever call it before maturity, which is 15 years from 2002, being 2017. If GM goes bankrupt, I figure there's a good chance I won't get a good chunk of my principal back. If this merger goes through, my odds are much better, I figure. I just got my statement, and it appears that on Sept. 30th, the bond was worth less than $7000. Since the markets have hemorrhaged so badly since, I might not be able to sell it for more than 5-6000 bucks. Of course, the news of the GM/Cerberus merger talks have surfaced since then, so who knows? Presumably, if a merger is initiated, GM's much less likely to file for bankruptcy.
Good Luck man! It situations like this that has always made me weary of buying corporate bonds long term.
 

SigArms08

Member
Apr 16, 2008
181
0
0
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: SigArms08
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Whipper I wish the big 3 didn't suck but they do. It's time to trim the fat. Maybe their engineers can help the US in better companies.
I wish that your prejudice didn't completely blind you to some facts posted earlier:
2008 initial quality, JD powers gives Pontiac's Grand Prix the top award for large cars(http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...ing/page-#page-anchor).
2008 Initial Quality for Midsize cars went to Chevy Malibu and the Ford Fusion was right behind it http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...y-category/midsize-car

Stating that they "suck" implies everything is terrible. GM has been making incredible strides this past decade. Its too bad that the management of yesterday drove the company into this crap position. Don't get me wrong, they still have a ways to go, but the two examples provided above deserve some credit.
You can also conveniently glaze over the 2008 Motor Trend Car of the Year award going to Cadillac for their CTS. http://www.motortrend.com/ofth...adillac_cts/index.html

Its truly sad that you're not willing to do the slightest bit of research to find some good products coming out of these companies.
And truly sad that you cannot see the forest for the trees. While you obsess over minutiae that's barely relevant here--build quality of their cars, which has gotten better and I never said it hasn't--you're missing the fact that management and liabilities for these companies is what is dooming them. Their entire business and structure is the problem, not necessarily their product at this point (although they have been nailed hard recently with product mix, more so than their competitors).
I refered to the past management problems creating the mess that they're in now and then highlighted some good products. Does that bother you?

 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
31,404
4,042
126
Originally posted by: venkman
Originally posted by: Muse
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Get a grip. They'll survive. GM and Ford have worldwide markets. While it may take some time for them to become profitable again, in time they'll pull though. They are not new to the rodeo and have faced similar declines in business before.
I have my own reason to hope GM doesn't go bankrupt. I bought a GMAC $20,000 bond, 2002, 15 year maturity. It was AAA when I bought it (8% return annually), but it's junk now. It's callable now, but doubt they'd ever call it before maturity, which is 15 years from 2002, being 2017. If GM goes bankrupt, I figure there's a good chance I won't get a good chunk of my principal back. If this merger goes through, my odds are much better, I figure. I just got my statement, and it appears that on Sept. 30th, the bond was worth less than $7000. Since the markets have hemorrhaged so badly since, I might not be able to sell it for more than 5-6000 bucks. Of course, the news of the GM/Cerberus merger talks have surfaced since then, so who knows? Presumably, if a merger is initiated, GM's much less likely to file for bankruptcy.
Good Luck man! It situations like this that has always made me weary of buying corporate bonds long term.
Honestly, I had my doubts when my financial advisor at the local Union Bank presented this to me. He was rather enthusiastic, saying it was quite a good deal. I had my doubts, and figured there was more than a small chance that the American automakers would fall on hard times, even desperate times seeing as other countries' cars seem to be getting better faster than American cars for decades now. I didn't say anything, though, and bought the bond. AAA ---> junk in less than 6 years. I bought another bond at the same time, a GMAC $120,000 2 year bond at 5%. That matured and I got my $120,000 back. I plowed it into a 5 star (Morningstar) income fund, but that's in the dumpster now just like most people's 401K's. Now I wish I'd taken the reins on my money, sold the fund and gone to cash in June. I'm going to have to ride out the storm somehow. It's looking like the smart money was buying CD's a few months ago. Or maybe Gold stocks.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
They want to merge with Chrysler because then they can be too big to fail.

Any car is decent for the first year or 2. Long-term is where American cars start shitting.
That may be why my '89 Pontiac Bonneville is still giving me 30 mpg with a tail wind at 70+mph.

 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
Originally posted by: SigArms08
I refered to the past management problems creating the mess that they're in now and then highlighted some good products. Does that bother you?
No :)
Now I wish I'd taken the reins on my money, sold the fund and gone to cash in June. I'm going to have to ride out the storm somehow. It's looking like the smart money was buying CD's a few months ago. Or maybe Gold stocks.
We are all on that boat, but you cannot look back because it is not productive and too painful, unless you feel there is a lesson to be learned. The thing is, others have already learned it and the professionals almost unanimously remind us that long term stocks do best, keep money there, and don't panic and sell when things are bad. If they are right, the money you've lost--we've all lost now--will return to us. Some did get out partly or entirely into CDs and they are counting their lucky blessings.

 

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