Point: Sugar pills are almost as effective as "real" medicine,
Therefore, possible conclusion, real medicine and sugar pill have the same effects, as the sugar pill is just a sugar pill, the "real" medicine may just basically not have any real affect on the body, thus the placebo effect may be the cause of people getting better from a depressed state.
This does not mean that depression is not real, it could mean that the medicines help people recover, just as any other medicine does, but because of their mental state.
They did trials using homeopathic medicines and sugar pills, and the homeopathy was shown to actually be more effective than the placebo pills, although they could not scientifically prove why (there's something like $1,000,000 for anyone who can prove why homeopathy works).
As people have said, just because we don't understand the hows and why's doesn't stop something existing.
We don't understand how homeopathy actually manages to achieve anything, but it does.
We don't understand depression all that well, but it exists. Even if it is often just in the mind, which is suggested by the research done in this case.
Therefore, possible conclusion, real medicine and sugar pill have the same effects, as the sugar pill is just a sugar pill, the "real" medicine may just basically not have any real affect on the body, thus the placebo effect may be the cause of people getting better from a depressed state.
This does not mean that depression is not real, it could mean that the medicines help people recover, just as any other medicine does, but because of their mental state.
They did trials using homeopathic medicines and sugar pills, and the homeopathy was shown to actually be more effective than the placebo pills, although they could not scientifically prove why (there's something like $1,000,000 for anyone who can prove why homeopathy works).
As people have said, just because we don't understand the hows and why's doesn't stop something existing.
We don't understand how homeopathy actually manages to achieve anything, but it does.
We don't understand depression all that well, but it exists. Even if it is often just in the mind, which is suggested by the research done in this case.
To quote the article:
The new research may shed light on findings such as those from a trial last month that compared the herbal remedy St. John's wort against Zoloft. St. John's wort fully cured 24 percent of the depressed people who received it, and Zoloft cured 25 percent -- but the placebo fully cured 32 percent.
What about the percentage that was not cured by any of the drugs? To say that depression is mostly a crock ignores the statistics you proffered.
Depression is very real. Also, the medication is only part of the treatment of the disease -especially severe depression Therapy / counseling is the other part.
Just as the body can change in such drastic ways such as increased bloodfow, induced clotting, sweating etc, the mind can incduce chemical changes in the body....why?
As we have evolved socially, our minds play an increasing role in out daily lives. Emotions are included in this culture.
Just as you begin to sweat or turn red when you are embarrased, depression is an induced chemical imbalance.
Although it is a social problem, the brain transfers that into chemical actions.....
Think about it.....when your body senses severly acute stress such as when you are on a roller coaster, it releases adrenaline. If you feel sick, you just get dizzy because you aren't paying attention. If you think you are in serious dangeron he ride, THEN you get the adrenaline...or endorphins(correct word?)
I used to be depressed. Then I came to realize that it was literally a frame of mind I induced my body into.
As we have evolved socially, our minds play an increasing role in out daily lives. Emotions are included in this culture.
Just as you begin to sweat or turn red when you are embarrased, depression is an induced chemical imbalance.
Although it is a social problem, the brain transfers that into chemical actions.....
Think about it.....when your body senses severly acute stress such as when you are on a roller coaster, it releases adrenaline. If you feel sick, you just get dizzy because you aren't paying attention. If you think you are in serious dangeron he ride, THEN you get the adrenaline...or endorphins(correct word?)
I used to be depressed. Then I came to realize that it was literally a frame of mind I induced my body into.
I refuse to take medicines as I see that as simply pushing away the problem rather than facing it, and I refuse psychotherapy as I rationalize how people think and try to 'enter their minds', and therefor do not feel like going to someone whose job is to do exactly the same. It will just be a battle of which of us is best at it.
I do not believe in an afterlife, and therefor look forward to the final release of death. As long as my life still has a purpose (trying to ease the suffering of those I care about) I will not take that step, were they to fall away I'd not live much longer.
Edit: I am not looking for sympathy or even understanding, just stating the way I look at the world. I see the mess the world is in, and how little I can do to change it, and don't feel like becoming old this way.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
- 19
- 81
This has got to be the most idiotic thing I have read.
depression exists, even in animals...now whether or not it is treatable with meds is debatable.
I suppose someone wants to blow their brains out because they are so happy with life, right? That sugar pill would solve that whole problem?
You need to define the depression one is experencing, acute or sometime like they failed a test, etc....most people are not in 'depression'
I can only hope this is just trolling else human stupidity just reached a new low.
depression exists, even in animals...now whether or not it is treatable with meds is debatable.
I suppose someone wants to blow their brains out because they are so happy with life, right? That sugar pill would solve that whole problem?
You need to define the depression one is experencing, acute or sometime like they failed a test, etc....most people are not in 'depression'
I can only hope this is just trolling else human stupidity just reached a new low.
Wow, just as stupid as Syringer's post. You obviously have no clue to what depression is and don't know why it is called a "chemical imbalance"? People simply lack the amount normally found in the average human. Yes, your emotions/environment changes the according chemicals in the brain, but if you already lack the normaly amount its not like you can just mysteriously create some more. They fluctuate from an ALREADY lowered point. The point of anti-depressants is to bring them to closer to a normal balance where there they can fluctuate, hence the necessity/importance of psychotherapy sessions still.
No you did not have real clinical depression if you simply got over it since it was nothing more than "a frame of mind" to you.
I give up. You can't educate the stupid. They're too stupid to learn.
Heh, I wonder if it's any coincidence that many of the ATOT mental health topics I've gotten in on turn into flame warz.
Maybe if we had a better idea of how the brain worked we could all get along better.
Although I'm sure this article is informative and everything, it has been my experience to never take one article as the word of Jeebus.
It was a couple of decades ago that scientific studies showed ciggarettes increasing hair growth, intellect, vigor, sexual prowess, etc.
However, i'm sure there would be people today who now have evidence to the contrary.
You should also be in the habit of looking at the the original article itself and being able to critically analyze it for its strong AND weak points.
This Washingtonpost writer is just interpreting an article for you. I dont know about you guys but I would much rather read it on my own and draw my own conclusions.
It's interesting that they bring up how the DSM is somewhat flawed. I think there is a diffculty in trying to apply a classification to something we cant objectively idenitfy. If you think about it, what DOES make a person depressed? Is it the concentration of Serotonin in the synapses of the basal ganglia? Maybe it has something to do with an overactive amygdala? There is no objective way of identifying depression and the DSM is just our best attempt at trying to classify it. With a subjective(and/or imperfect) system of classification, there are bound to be some inconsistencies in the treatments given to each person diagnosed with "depression"
While I wouldnt say that depression does not exist, I would call into question whether some people are TRULY "depressed" and whether the meds are really doing something for their brain chemistry.
For those of you who are on some from of tricyclic, MAOi's, or SSRI's: Best of luck to you.
Every time a psychiatrist tries you on another type of medicine, he is just firing in the general direction of the problem because no one really knows where the target really is. This leaves you to trust this MD to help guide you in tweaking your brain chemistry until the maladaptive behaviors stop.
I dunno... kinda weird. I just hope that things have been getting better for you guys.
On the bright side, we've come a long way from hydro therapy and floggings.
<Insert shameless plug>
At the NIMH, we are currently looking at genotypes and neuroimaging in an attempt to pinpoint the genes that might make someone more susceptible to a certain mental illness(we're currently doing schizophrenia). We even got an article in Science published last year that was called "the genetics of fear" and it was examinig a certain serotonin transporter allele variation that seemed to correlate with increased activation of the amygdala which is a structure in the brain implicated in the "fear" response of humans and animals.
Who knows? Maybe some day imaging genomics will clear away these flames.
Maybe if we had a better idea of how the brain worked we could all get along better.
Although I'm sure this article is informative and everything, it has been my experience to never take one article as the word of Jeebus.
It was a couple of decades ago that scientific studies showed ciggarettes increasing hair growth, intellect, vigor, sexual prowess, etc.
However, i'm sure there would be people today who now have evidence to the contrary.
You should also be in the habit of looking at the the original article itself and being able to critically analyze it for its strong AND weak points.
This Washingtonpost writer is just interpreting an article for you. I dont know about you guys but I would much rather read it on my own and draw my own conclusions.
It's interesting that they bring up how the DSM is somewhat flawed. I think there is a diffculty in trying to apply a classification to something we cant objectively idenitfy. If you think about it, what DOES make a person depressed? Is it the concentration of Serotonin in the synapses of the basal ganglia? Maybe it has something to do with an overactive amygdala? There is no objective way of identifying depression and the DSM is just our best attempt at trying to classify it. With a subjective(and/or imperfect) system of classification, there are bound to be some inconsistencies in the treatments given to each person diagnosed with "depression"
While I wouldnt say that depression does not exist, I would call into question whether some people are TRULY "depressed" and whether the meds are really doing something for their brain chemistry.
For those of you who are on some from of tricyclic, MAOi's, or SSRI's: Best of luck to you.
Every time a psychiatrist tries you on another type of medicine, he is just firing in the general direction of the problem because no one really knows where the target really is. This leaves you to trust this MD to help guide you in tweaking your brain chemistry until the maladaptive behaviors stop.
I dunno... kinda weird. I just hope that things have been getting better for you guys.
On the bright side, we've come a long way from hydro therapy and floggings.
<Insert shameless plug>
At the NIMH, we are currently looking at genotypes and neuroimaging in an attempt to pinpoint the genes that might make someone more susceptible to a certain mental illness(we're currently doing schizophrenia). We even got an article in Science published last year that was called "the genetics of fear" and it was examinig a certain serotonin transporter allele variation that seemed to correlate with increased activation of the amygdala which is a structure in the brain implicated in the "fear" response of humans and animals.
Who knows? Maybe some day imaging genomics will clear away these flames.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
I have a psyc degree and both of my parents are practicing psychiatrists. To say that depression is bullshit as incallisto puts it or that in all cases somebody can suck it up or get over it is not just wrong it's patently ignorant. It's ludicrously ignorant in fact.
Have you ever been sad or upset? Anybody you know ever die? Ever been feeling down? Why couldn't you simply say "I hate feeling this way. I think I'll be happy."? You couldn't because it's not that easy. At least in that case you probably knew why you were upset. Now please realize that the sadness you felt pales in comparison to the sadness and feelings of hopelessness that some people have everyday. Moreover they have no idea why they feel that way. There is truly nothing that makes you happy.
Pretending a person can "suck it up" is equally asinine as convincing yourself that you will, starting now, live a blissful life of total and utter happiness and contentedness. Sorry you can't. You're a slave to your surroundings and environment. Why do people drink? Often it's because the substance makes them feel happier. Clearly chemicals are very much able to affect mood.
And given that fact why would you even for a second think that everybody in the world has the same chemical levels in their body so that everybody has the same exact propensity for happiness? What a ridiculous notion.
Spend some time with somebody who's depressed or better yet go through it yourself and you'll know it's real.
As mentioned below one of the symptoms of depressin manifests itself in hopeless and a person with it is often unwilling to get help. Maybe they don't think it will help or maybe, and really rather sadly, they think that being depressed gives them an enlightenment that happy people don't have. Happy people are stupid and don't realize how bad the world is. So many depressed people think this way. Well being depressed sucks and if you ever get off your ass and do get help for it in the form of therapy and/or drugs you'll look back at the state you're in now and regret your lack of effort at the moment. And no it won't be because you're jacked up on drugs.
I'm through.
Have you ever been sad or upset? Anybody you know ever die? Ever been feeling down? Why couldn't you simply say "I hate feeling this way. I think I'll be happy."? You couldn't because it's not that easy. At least in that case you probably knew why you were upset. Now please realize that the sadness you felt pales in comparison to the sadness and feelings of hopelessness that some people have everyday. Moreover they have no idea why they feel that way. There is truly nothing that makes you happy.
Pretending a person can "suck it up" is equally asinine as convincing yourself that you will, starting now, live a blissful life of total and utter happiness and contentedness. Sorry you can't. You're a slave to your surroundings and environment. Why do people drink? Often it's because the substance makes them feel happier. Clearly chemicals are very much able to affect mood.
And given that fact why would you even for a second think that everybody in the world has the same chemical levels in their body so that everybody has the same exact propensity for happiness? What a ridiculous notion.
Spend some time with somebody who's depressed or better yet go through it yourself and you'll know it's real.
As mentioned below one of the symptoms of depressin manifests itself in hopeless and a person with it is often unwilling to get help. Maybe they don't think it will help or maybe, and really rather sadly, they think that being depressed gives them an enlightenment that happy people don't have. Happy people are stupid and don't realize how bad the world is. So many depressed people think this way. Well being depressed sucks and if you ever get off your ass and do get help for it in the form of therapy and/or drugs you'll look back at the state you're in now and regret your lack of effort at the moment. And no it won't be because you're jacked up on drugs.
I'm through.
Some of us may say that depression is in fact the unwillingness to wield the rose-colored glasses and ignore what a steaming pile of crap humanity is.... and in fact be PROUD of being depressed.
I understand where you're coming from, but it's not so black and white. I've struggled with depression, a very real disease, throughout my years. I've never been medicated, but I have been diagnosed, and I do show many symptoms. I am not a drama queen, I do not get depressed over one small thing, I'm actually very level headed.
ANYWAYS.. happy does not = stupid, as does sad does not = enlightened. Personally, I agree with you.. the tools who laugh at Friends, escape their emotions through alcohol and inanimate items, who find Eddie Murphy movies funny,
etc etc.. yeah, they're not that intelligent in my eyes. However, unintelligent doesn't equal happy. Happy is often a mask worn to hide sorrow.Sad doesn't always mean enlightened and pessimistic, though. I've struggled with depression, and a couple people I know have struggled with it as well. Yes, when ya think about it, the future and our general purpose in the grand scheme of things is pretty morbid and useless. However, we just gotta understand that the only way to break out of that rut is to realize there's so much more than death! There's all these years until we grow old and die, we gotta live em to our fullest and embrace what we have while we still are lucky enough to have it.
Friends, family, and loved ones got me through my darker times. And they're shown me that we're not here to just get old and die.. we're here to LIVE.
I dunno, this probably won't change any of your perspective, but I figured I'd just share mine. I've been in the same boat as you, thinking like that, but once I came to a few key realizations (yours will, of course, differ from mine), things became easier to grasp, perspective was easier to gain, and my lifestyle generally improved. I still struggle from time to time, but I can get out of my ruts much easier with my new, bit more optomistic, but definately not stupid, perspective.The way I see it, depression isn't something that can be cured solely with drugs. A doctor can perscribe and peddle drugs out of his ass to you all day long, while what could help even more is a good talk with a shrink or someone who can help. Doctor's are so pill-happy nowadays it's frustrating to see the states some anti-depressents turn many people into, when they don't have to be sickly, walking zombies.
Depression is not realism, it is pessimism. There are many happy people who are very realistic, moreso than many people who I come across who think they are, or who are depressed, who see the world not through rose colored sunglasses, but through colorless ones. There are some rosey things in the world.. see em, embrace em, live for em.. they make life the wonderful thing it is.
...of course, the thing that sucks about this novel I've written here is that it's all a lot easier said than done.
Anyways.. end of book. Just have a lot of thoughts on the subject I guess.
My bad..I was on my way out and had pissed off at someone so as ypu can see this was a little biased. I believe that depression exists, but in my case, and most likely ALOT OF OTHER PEOPLE it is not true depression...
I guess I was trying to describe the induced depression that many people have
Believe me, any sufferer of real depression would gladly trade with you and be able to just let it go. Depression is like cancer of the mind: It can lie slumbering for years, but it is never truly gone, and can hit you harder each time.
Originally posted by: stormbv
Oh, thank you for telling me depression is a crock...I'll try not to be a little bitch anymore.
dont roll your eyes at me crybaby
hahaha just kidding
...
I was watching a film where they had 4 groups of people. I saw this like 4 years ago so details might be a little fuzzy. All 4 groups recently had their wisdom teeth removed. 1st group received pain killers and were told they received pain killers. 2nd group was given pain killers and told they were given placebos. 3rd group recieved placebos and told they were super experimental pain killers. Finally, the 4th group received placebos and were told that they were placebos. I saw this video in a psychology class (social psych, general psych? not sure now)
just to sum it up, a good portion of the people in the 3rd group complained of a little pain but nothing unbearable. People in the 2nd group were complaining of pain and one guy was even crying from the pain. Less people complained of pain in the 2nd group than the 3rd group.
So I guess if we use your reasoning, pain is also not real for *most* people...
I was watching a film where they had 4 groups of people. I saw this like 4 years ago so details might be a little fuzzy. All 4 groups recently had their wisdom teeth removed. 1st group received pain killers and were told they received pain killers. 2nd group was given pain killers and told they were given placebos. 3rd group recieved placebos and told they were super experimental pain killers. Finally, the 4th group received placebos and were told that they were placebos. I saw this video in a psychology class (social psych, general psych? not sure now)
just to sum it up, a good portion of the people in the 3rd group complained of a little pain but nothing unbearable. People in the 2nd group were complaining of pain and one guy was even crying from the pain. Less people complained of pain in the 2nd group than the 3rd group.
So I guess if we use your reasoning, pain is also not real for *most* people...
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
- 19
- 81
These are all methods of false statistics....
1) Pain Thresholds differ for many people
2) Wisdom teeth extraction can cause varying levels of pain
3) Some people are suspectable to the 'placebo' effect at times...their problem is in their head, but this can change time to time and from scenario to scenario
There is a stupid commericial out now: "1/3 of drivers involved in accidents that tested positive for drugs, tested positive for marijuana....it's a bigger problem than we thought"
1) The commercial leads many to believe 1/3 of all drivers are on marijuana.
2) In reality, we have no idea the size of those that tested positive for drugs, it could be only 3 people, it could be the whole group.
3) Of those that tested positive for drugs (I am assuming they are counting alcohol also) 1/3 were on marijuana....to be this is better than 1/3 on PCP, or Crack, or Heroin.
4) There is no mention that the people were 'high' at the time and marijuana stays in the system/hair a long time and could be encountered second hand
5) The commerical is basically propaganda like most are
1) Pain Thresholds differ for many people
2) Wisdom teeth extraction can cause varying levels of pain
3) Some people are suspectable to the 'placebo' effect at times...their problem is in their head, but this can change time to time and from scenario to scenario
There is a stupid commericial out now: "1/3 of drivers involved in accidents that tested positive for drugs, tested positive for marijuana....it's a bigger problem than we thought"
1) The commercial leads many to believe 1/3 of all drivers are on marijuana.
2) In reality, we have no idea the size of those that tested positive for drugs, it could be only 3 people, it could be the whole group.
3) Of those that tested positive for drugs (I am assuming they are counting alcohol also) 1/3 were on marijuana....to be this is better than 1/3 on PCP, or Crack, or Heroin.
4) There is no mention that the people were 'high' at the time and marijuana stays in the system/hair a long time and could be encountered second hand
5) The commerical is basically propaganda like most are
Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate
incallisto = obtuse
If by obtuse you mean that I lack sensitivity, you are right.
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