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More Bad News May Be on the Way for Bush.

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040509/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_bleak_week_4

More Bad News May Be on the Way for Bush

4 minutes ago

By TERENCE HUNT, AP White House Correspondent

WASHINGTON - In one of the darkest weeks of his administration, President Bush (news - web sites) saw America's reputation sullied, the U.S. effort in Iraq damaged and his own campaign for re-election clouded. And more bad news may be on the way.

While the world already has been horrified by pictures of American soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners, the Pentagon warns there are many more photos and videos that have not been disclosed.

They show "acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman," embattled Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress.

From the White House to Capitol Hill, policy-makers are worried that the United States faces lasting damage abroad ? particularly in the Middle East ? from the pictures of naked Arab men being tortured and humiliated by American soldiers, the same forces sent to Iraq to liberate the country from Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s torture and repression.

Analysts describe the pictures as great recruiting tools for al-Qaida and other extremist groups and said they undermine America's claims to a moral high ground. Rumsfeld said the impact was "radioactive."

Bush, in his weekly radio address Saturday, said, "They are a stain on our country's honor and reputation." He said the abuses were the work of a few and do not reflect the overall character of the 200,000 members of the U.S. military who have served in Iraq in the past year.

Six months from the November elections, Iraq weighs heavily on the president.

April was the deadliest month yet for American soldiers in Iraq and May is off to a bloody start.

On the diplomatic front, the administration does not know who will take power in Iraq from the United States in a June 30 handover.

Costs are soaring. The administration has sent Congress an unexpected $25 billion request for Iraq and Afghanistan.

Day after day, the extraordinary apologies from the president and his top deputies dominated the news.

Pollsters and presidential experts are scratching their heads over how the prisoner scandal will affect Bush's re-election hopes.

"There's such a big question mark there, it's unlike anything we've seen before," said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center.

"The public is very critical of (Bush's) management of Iraq. They don't think he has a clear plan for bringing it to a successful conclusion, but a thin majority of the public has been hanging in with that it was the right decision to go to war," Kohut said. "This could be the event which makes people say 'Oh, we did make a mistake.'"

Political scientist James Thurber of American University likened the Iraq images to the infamous Vietnam pictures of a naked young girl fleeing a napalm attack and a Viet Cong prisoner being executed on a Saigon street.

Referring to the new pictures, Thurber said, "That's what we're going to remember about Iraq. It's just not going to go away. That may have a lasting and negative effect on his campaign. It certainly does right now and I think you'll see it in the polls immediately."

Support for Bush's handling of foreign policy and terrorism, usually his strongest issue, was at 50 percent in an Associated Press-Ipsos poll released Friday. That compares with 55 percent a month ago.

Kurt Campbell, a former Pentagon official during the Clinton administration, said it was too early to tell whether Rumsfeld would be able to keep his job.

"The real issue is there's more stuff that's going to come out that is troubling, beyond humiliation and torture. Deaths I think," said Campbell, director of international security at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

"And there's going to be quite a long record of warnings that were either ignore or dismissed. And that I think is going to be problematic," Campbell said.

Lawmakers worried the pictures would harm U.S. credibility for years, perhaps decades. While the United States champions freedom and democracy in Iraq, the pictures show vivid scenes of cruelty and insensitivity.

Splashed across front pages across the Middle East and around the world, the pictures may undermine "the substantial gains toward the goal of peace and freedom in various operation areas of the world, most particularly Iraq," said Sen. John Warner, R-Va., chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Michigan Sen. Carl Levin, the committee's top Democrat, said the abuses "dishonored our military and our nation and they made the prospects for success in Iraq even more difficult than they already are."

Added Rep. Tom Cole, R-Okla.: "This was a political and public relations Pearl Harbor."

Bush pledged in his radio address that the United States would not be thrown into retreat.

"This has been a difficult few weeks," Bush said. "Yet our forces will stay on the offensive, finding and confronting the killers and terrorists who are trying to undermine the progress of democracy in Iraq."
 

HappyPuppy

Lifer
Apr 5, 2001
16,997
2
71
I have been a conservative Bush supporter, but I want to know what the fsck is going on over there. If our troops are abusing prisoners and civilians I want to know who the hell gave the order to do so. If nobody gave the order I want the perpetrators hung on a short rope and their commanding officers evicerated on worldwide TV.

No, I am not kidding. I have been in war and know what the stresses are and would NEVER lower myself to such animal behaviour.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Do we really need another one of these "more is coming" threads?

:roll:

CkG

Hey, why don't you start a thread with that as the title?


"You don't know what it's like to always be scared."
That's the response I received from the vet I work with when I told him what I thought of this whole fiasco.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Do we really need another one of these "more is coming" threads?

:roll:

CkG

Hey, why don't you start a thread with that as the title?

conjur tried that on the last issue(or was it this issue) and it failed. I just figured we don't need a 25th thread about this when this "more to come" thing is being presented in almost every single one of them.

Meh - the MODs don't seem to care about the amount of threads on this...so why should I...

*gives up* - have at it

/me leaves thread

CkG
 

Napalm

Platinum Member
Oct 12, 1999
2,050
0
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Do we really need another one of these "more is coming" threads?

:roll:

CkG

Yeah - really. You'd think from all of these posts that this is an important issue... [end sacrasm...]
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Meh - the MODs don't seem to care about the amount of threads on this...so why should I...

CkG

You're right...you shouldn't. But you do.
 

HappyPuppy

Lifer
Apr 5, 2001
16,997
2
71
I notice you didn't respond to my post, CAD. How can there possibly too many threads addressing an issue that affects our military and the American public? We are being accused of systematic rape and torture.

Tell me, please, that it ain't so, Joe.
 

NightCrawler

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 2003
3,179
0
0
Rush Limbaugh will spend next week trying to back track on his ignorant statements. Of course it probably did boost his ratings so I suppose that is what he wanted.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Do we really need another one of these "more is coming" threads?

:roll:

CkG

Hey, when you warmoger for a war, you better have the stomach for it.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Do we really need another one of these "more is coming" threads?

:roll:

CkG

Hey, when you warmoger for a war, you better have the stomach for it.

This isn't about War - moron. It's about some attrocities that were commited by some of our soldiers. The attricities don't make the war "not right". Ofcourse I'm sure some will say it does, but I don't believe these acts make the war "unjust". The acts were "unjust" - but not the war.

CkG
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Do we really need another one of these "more is coming" threads?

:roll:

CkG

Hey, when you warmoger for a war, you better have the stomach for it.

This isn't about War - moron. It's about some attrocities that were commited by some of our soldiers. The attricities don't make the war "not right". Ofcourse I'm sure some will say it does, but I don't believe these acts make the war "unjust". The acts were "unjust" - but not the war.

CkG

Wow CAD for a guy who constantly complains about trivial rules (DON'T CALL ME OUT IN THREAD TOPICS) you sure do employ the "personal insult" with ease...
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: HappyPuppy
I notice you didn't respond to my post, CAD. How can there possibly too many threads addressing an issue that affects our military and the American public? We are being accused of systematic rape and torture.

Tell me, please, that it ain't so, Joe.

Yes, I was going to leave the thread because I had made my point and it seems others have rejected it - that's fine.:)

However if you wish for me to comment on your post - I agree with it. I want to know what is going on, make sure that it definately has stopped, changes made so this doesn't occur in the future, AND that those responsible are held to account no matter what. Those who participated in the acts should be immediately removed from duty and if it is found that this goes higher or due to some policy or suggestion by those in charge - then that needs to be dealt with too.

I have posted similar comments elsewhere but since there are tons of threads on this I haven't found them yet(I was going to cut/paste them). Anyway - just because I make a statement about the amount of repeat threads on this does NOT mean I think this should be swept under the rug or that it isn't a very important issue.

CkG
 

HappyPuppy

Lifer
Apr 5, 2001
16,997
2
71
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Do we really need another one of these "more is coming" threads?

:roll:

CkG

Hey, when you warmoger for a war, you better have the stomach for it.

This isn't about War - moron. It's about some attrocities that were commited by some of our soldiers. The attricities don't make the war "not right". Ofcourse I'm sure some will say it does, but I don't believe these acts make the war "unjust". The acts were "unjust" - but not the war.

CkG



Questiion answered, sort of.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Do we really need another one of these "more is coming" threads?

:roll:

CkG

Hey, when you warmoger for a war, you better have the stomach for it.

This isn't about War - moron. It's about some attrocities that were commited by some of our soldiers. The attricities don't make the war "not right". Ofcourse I'm sure some will say it does, but I don't believe these acts make the war "unjust". The acts were "unjust" - but not the war.

CkG

Wow CAD for a guy who constantly complains about trivial rules (DON'T CALL ME OUT IN THREAD TOPICS) you sure do employ the "personal insult" with ease...

:roll:


Anyway - your post was moronic - this has nothing to do with being a so-called "warmonger" or the war. It has to do with torture/attrocities commited by our soldiers. Infact I think some might take offense to your suggestion that we should have the stomach for these types of acts/abuses/attrocities because we are "warmongers":roll:

CkG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: HappyPuppy
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Do we really need another one of these "more is coming" threads?

:roll:

CkG

Hey, when you warmoger for a war, you better have the stomach for it.

This isn't about War - moron. It's about some attrocities that were commited by some of our soldiers. The attricities don't make the war "not right". Ofcourse I'm sure some will say it does, but I don't believe these acts make the war "unjust". The acts were "unjust" - but not the war.

CkG



Questiion answered, sort of.

You haven't answered my questioin, CAD. Did these low ranking soldiers take it upon themselves to rape and torture Iraqis or were they ordered to do so? If they were ordered to do so, who gave the order? We must have the answer to this question because the American people will not tolerate this sort of behavior from its military.

sort of? What didn't I cover?

CkG
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Do we really need another one of these "more is coming" threads?

:roll:

CkG

Hey, when you warmoger for a war, you better have the stomach for it.

This isn't about War - moron. It's about some attrocities that were commited by some of our soldiers. The attricities don't make the war "not right". Ofcourse I'm sure some will say it does, but I don't believe these acts make the war "unjust". The acts were "unjust" - but not the war.

CkG

Wow CAD for a guy who constantly complains about trivial rules (DON'T CALL ME OUT IN THREAD TOPICS) you sure do employ the "personal insult" with ease...

:roll:
holds alot of weight coming from someone who just did the same thing. :roll:

Anyway - your post was moronic - this has nothing to do with being a so-called "warmonger" or the war. It has to do with torture/attrocities commited by our soldiers. Infact I think some might take offense to your suggestion that we should have the stomach for these types of acts/abuses/attrocities because we are "warmongers":roll:

CkG



Cool!!

If I feel someone posted a moronic post, I'm justified in calling that person a moron.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Do we really need another one of these "more is coming" threads?

:roll:

CkG

Hey, when you warmoger for a war, you better have the stomach for it.

This isn't about War - moron. It's about some attrocities that were commited by some of our soldiers. The attricities don't make the war "not right". Ofcourse I'm sure some will say it does, but I don't believe these acts make the war "unjust". The acts were "unjust" - but not the war.

CkG

Wow CAD for a guy who constantly complains about trivial rules (DON'T CALL ME OUT IN THREAD TOPICS) you sure do employ the "personal insult" with ease...

:roll:
holds alot of weight coming from someone who just did the same thing. :roll:

Anyway - your post was moronic - this has nothing to do with being a so-called "warmonger" or the war. It has to do with torture/attrocities commited by our soldiers. Infact I think some might take offense to your suggestion that we should have the stomach for these types of acts/abuses/attrocities because we are "warmongers":roll:

CkG



Cool!!

If I feel someone posted a moronic post, I'm justified in calling that person a moron.

:roll: and a *cookie*

CkG
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Do we really need another one of these "more is coming" threads?

:roll:

CkG

Hey, when you warmoger for a war, you better have the stomach for it.

This isn't about War - moron. It's about some attrocities that were commited by some of our soldiers. The attricities don't make the war "not right". Ofcourse I'm sure some will say it does, but I don't believe these acts make the war "unjust". The acts were "unjust" - but not the war.

CkG

How many wars have you been personally involved with, which you can personally guarantee that no atrocities were committed?

War is ugly, and it is even uglier when started and ran by someone without conscience and without planning. So don't complain when people give it to you the reality of the war over and over when you warmongering it for the first place.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Those who wanted this war created the situation by which this occured. Without them, this crap would not be. Unfortunately after all this time, with no terrorist links of note, no WMDS, no credible evidence for threat against the US whatsoever, they still claim some moral high ground for this awful mess. Well this is precisely what you asked for and now all of us have to live with this clusterfsck. Good deal :roll:
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
as exemplified by Cad, this abuse will not do anything for Bush's numbers. Of course, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Do we really need another one of these "more is coming" threads?

:roll:

CkG

Hey, when you warmoger for a war, you better have the stomach for it.

This isn't about War - moron. It's about some attrocities that were commited by some of our soldiers. The attricities don't make the war "not right". Ofcourse I'm sure some will say it does, but I don't believe these acts make the war "unjust". The acts were "unjust" - but not the war.

CkG

How many wars have you been personally involved with, which you can personally guarantee that no atrocities were committed?

War is ugly, and it is even uglier when started and ran by someone without conscience and without planning. So don't complain when people give it to you the reality of the war over and over when you warmongering it for the first place.

Ah yes, the peacenik excuse for no war. "people might get hurt" :roll:
I never said war wasn't ugly. I'm not complaining that people are POSTING ABOUT THE ATTROCITIES - I JUST SAID THAT WE DON'T NEED REPEAT THREAD AFTER REPEAT THREAD ON THE SAME THING. There are tons of threads on this subject - do we need a new thread for every article the press prints? No.

Anyway - for those who suggest I don't care about the subject or am trying to sweep it under the rug or anything of the like - you are sorely misinformed. I'm just as repulsed by these acts as the next guy, but it doesn't make me not support the original war - nor should it. There was a failure, there were attrocities committed, it should be dealt with severly. What else do you expect? Do you really expect people to suddenly not support the original war because this happened? weak...just weak.

CkG
 

DoubleL

Golden Member
Apr 3, 2001
1,202
0
0
I guess they will be a new post everytime a picture comes out, How bad is it just look at the title, More Bad News May Be on the Way for Bush., I would say it will make Bush sick as it will the men trying to fight over there, As a military man it makes me sick cause I know it is going to get Americans killed for what a handfull did, I don't care who said what or who didn't know the laws of war, Everyone, No most know right from wrong, It saddens me even more when some people and I know some that see the pictures and start singing happy days are here again
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
I Think that this is important, but with so many threads on the subject I am not sure which one to post it in, so I guess I should post it in all of them...Well here goes,,,,,,,,,


Link



General Blames Abuse on Poor Leadership
General Says No Plan to Shut Iraq Prison, Blames Abuse on Poor Leadership and Disregard of Rules

The Associated Press



BAGHDAD, Iraq May 8, 2004 ? The head of U.S. detention centers in Iraq said Saturday the military has no plans to close the Abu Ghraib prison and blamed the abuse of detainees there on poor leadership and disregard for the rules.
Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller said the United States does intend to cut the number of prisoners to help improve conditions but added that "we will continue to conduct interrogation missions at the Abu Ghraib facility."





Miller was named head of prisons in April after Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, the commander of Abu Ghraib, was suspended amid allegations of prisoner abuse by U.S. soldiers at the prison.

Six prison guards are facing criminal charges for alleged abuse of Iraqi prisonerss, and one has already been charged.

President Bush vowed Saturday that "we will learn all the facts and determine the full extent of these abuses. Those involved will be identified. They will answer for their actions."

Bush said all prison operations in Iraq will be reviewed "to make certain that similar disgraceful incidents are never repeated."

Miller said he visited all 14 prison facilities in Iraq to review procedures and that an Army team of 31 specialists was in the country retraining prison guards, a process that would last until June 30.

"We will ensure that we follow our procedures," he said. "It is a matter of honor. We were ashamed and embarrassed by the conduct of a very, very small number of our soldiers...On my honor, I will ensure that it will not happen again."

Miller said the "alleged abuses and abuses we have discovered from the investigations appear to be due to leaders and soldiers not following the authorized policy and lack of leadership and supervision."

Miller insisted that Iraqi prisoners were now being treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and that interrogation teams were following Army guidelines while trying to get "the best intelligence as rapidly as possible."

"I am satisfied that that system is following the provisions of the Geneva Conventions and assisting the coalition in providing actionable intelligence to help us win this fight for the freedom of Iraq," he said.

He said earlier in the week that he would halt or restrict some interrogation methods, especially eight to 10 "very aggressive techniques," including using hoods on prisoners, putting them in stressful positions and depriving them of sleep. He said those methods are now banned without specific approval.

Miller said there were no plans to close Abu Ghraib and that if orders are received to close the lockup, the military would probably shift the mission to another facility, Camp Bucca, south of Basra. Abu Ghraib was a notorious prison under Saddam Hussein where detainees were routinely tortured and sometimes executed.

Miller, the former commander of the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, led a 30-member team to Iraq in August and September that focused on ways of sharpening interrogation procedures.

In a report on the Abu Ghraib scandal, Maj. Gen. Anthony Taguba wrote that the team recommended "that the guard force be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees."

Some military police at the prison have said they were instructed to "soften up" the prisoners before interrogation.

"There was no recommendation ever by this group ... that recommended that the military police become actively involved in the interrogation," Miller said.

Miller said he recommended that guards should monitor prisoners closely and pass on information to interrogators.

Military police "should be involved in passive intelligence collection," Miller said.

One of the soldiers facing charges, Spc. Sabrina Harman, said she and other members of the 372nd Military Police Company took direction from Army military intelligence officers, CIA operatives and from civilian contractors who conducted interrogations.

In an interview by e-mail from Baghdad, Harman told The Washington Post it was made clear that her mission was to break down the prisoners.

"They would bring in one to several prisoners at a time already hooded and cuffed," Harman said. "The job of the MP was to keep them awake, make it hell so they would talk."

Harman, 26, is one of two smiling soldiers seen in a photo taken at Abu Ghraib as they stand behind naked, hooded Iraqi prisoners stacked in a pyramid.

Miller said that in part he used his experience at Guantanamo to help reshape the interrogation process.

Miller has said that by the end of his stint at Guantanamo in March, intelligence tips had increased dramatically and that about three-quarters of the 600 detainees had confessed to some involvement in terrorism and many had exposed former friends. The detainees there were largely suspected of ties to the Taliban or the al-Qaida terror network.

Miller said he had a "high level of confidence" that proper procedures were now being implemented in Iraq.

"We may make honest mistakes ... but there will be no mistakes of moral turpitude," he said.


photo credit and caption: A U.S. Army military policeman leads a group of fresh detainees for interrogation inside the Abu Ghraib Prison on the outskirts of Baghdad, Iraq Saturday, May 8, 2004. American soldiers now at the prison arrived months after photos were taken showing prisoner abuse in late 2003.(AP Photo/John Moore)