Monster Cable Substitute

[glen]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: glen

Originally posted by: se7enty7
I'm so sick of hearing this. SEARCH SEARCH SEARCH. Of all the topics that have been discussed once every three days, THIS is the one.

do a simple search for
"cable"

and there are 8 topics similar to this one.

To save you the trouble;
buy Acoustic Research

No, the conclusion is buy cheap crap from home depot. Obviously you have either not searched or not read my extensive testing and supporting data.

Nor have you done the math on a 15Khz wave on a 1 ohm speaker and compared the results from lamp cord and thicker stuff give the appropriate impedance/capacitance of each cable at 10 feet.

Again, lets talk apples to apples.
Gauge to gauge.
Even so, in most cases it makes no difference with music. You can use test gear and test tones and find a difference, but people can't hear it at lengths of somethign like under 50 feet. Mathematically the resistance will roll off the highs. this si easly calculated and fairly simple and well known physics. Like I said, read the stuff on the ABX testing page. they cover testing conditions, and everything else everything.

 

[amnesiac]

For speaker cable, 12GA Sound King cable from Partsexpress is by far the most recommended speaker cable. It's more flexible than the 12GA from Home Depot (which is still decent). It's also very cheap. There is really no reason to spend any more for better cables unless you have a sufficiently pompous high-end audiophile setup. (Read: If you pay $20,000 apiece for speakers, then what's $2000 for cable?)

For analog interconnects, http://www.bluejeanscable.com is very good

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: glen


Well yes and no....depends if you have noise sources near by. Tests with noise sources definitely prove wires can make a difference.

Å

Right, with music no one can tell.
With test tones, some can tell.
BUT, it is nto an apples ot apples test. IN all those cases, one of the wires, always the uber expensive one, has a resister soildered into it inside the connector. So, If we add the same value resistor to the zip cord, it will be indistiguishable from the Uber cable even with test tones.[/quote]

Test tones were not the noise I was talking about....interference is the noise I am talking about.

You have yourself all predisposed on this matter so I may as well be talking to a brick wall.

Cable tests do not factor in oxidation usually at all, nor how a poorly soldered rca can add a ton of noise, etc. We are not just talking speaker wire here.

If you live in humid climates good cables can help over time. I am not saying you need to drop $100+, but picking up everything at the dollar store may cause you problems.

Å

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: glen


Well yes and no....depends if you have noise sources near by. Tests with noise sources definitely prove wires can make a difference.

Å

Right, with music no one can tell.
With test tones, some can tell.
BUT, it is nto an apples ot apples test. IN all those cases, one of the wires, always the uber expensive one, has a resister soildered into it inside the connector. So, If we add the same value resistor to the zip cord, it will be indistiguishable from the Uber cable even with test tones.

Test tones were not the noise I was talking about....interference is the noise I am talking about.

You have yourself all predisposed on this matter so I may as well be talking to a brick wall.

Cable tests do not factor in oxidation usually at all, nor how a poorly soldered rca can add a ton of noise, etc. We are not just talking speaker wire here.

If you live in humid climates good cables can help over time. I am not saying you need to drop $100+, but picking up everything at the dollar store may cause you problems.

Å[/quote]



I say they all sound alike, and you say no they don't if you live in a humid climate and an elephant steps on the connector, and it breaks, then no electricity will flow and they will sound different. Good God. You really had to go to an extreme length to find a way to disagree with me. Then you say I am a predisposed Brick Wall. Thanks a fvcking lot.

 

[amnesiac]

Hahahahahaahahahhhahaha

Nice, Glen. :beer:😀

Self proclaimed "Audiophiles" will ALWAYS find some reasoning to validate their purchase or fandom of extreme high end equipment, regardless of whether or not such equipment is any better than brand X.

The double-blind tests prove it.

As for the "hey have these been tested vs. each other in a 15khz sweep test tones yada yada yada..."

Okay, great. The $15,000 a foot cables have perfect impedance results on test tones. Now, tell me this:

WHO LISTENS TO TEST TONES?

People -- at least most NORMAL people, including audiophiles, use speakers to listen to MUSIC and MOVIES. If NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE can be determined from 2 brands of cable given a sampling of music and movie material in a double blind test, isn't it safe to say that unless you WANT to spend thousands of dollars on pure silver rope, there's no reason other than bragging rights to do so?

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: amnesiac
Hahahahahaahahahhhahaha

Nice, Glen. :beer:😀

Self proclaimed "Audiophiles" will ALWAYS find some reasoning to validate their purchase or fandom of extreme high end equipment, regardless of whether or not such equipment is any better than brand X.

The double-blind tests prove it.

As for the "hey have these been tested vs. each other in a 15khz sweep test tones yada yada yada..."

Okay, great. The $15,000 a foot cables have perfect impedance results on test tones. Now, tell me this:

WHO LISTENS TO TEST TONES?

People -- at least most NORMAL people, including audiophiles, use speakers to listen to MUSIC and MOVIES. If NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE can be determined from 2 brands of cable given a sampling of music and movie material in a double blind test, isn't it safe to say that unless you WANT to spend thousands of dollars on pure silver rope, there's no reason other than bragging rights to do so?

but in my own blind tests performed at home I picked out the cable 10/10 times. So that's good enough for me. And it sure as heck wasn't the most expensive one either.

You're probably going to tell me that all CD players sound the same too aren't you?

 

[MazerRackham]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: amnesiac
Hahahahahaahahahhhahaha

Nice, Glen. :beer:😀

Self proclaimed "Audiophiles" will ALWAYS find some reasoning to validate their purchase or fandom of extreme high end equipment, regardless of whether or not such equipment is any better than brand X.

The double-blind tests prove it.

As for the "hey have these been tested vs. each other in a 15khz sweep test tones yada yada yada..."

Okay, great. The $15,000 a foot cables have perfect impedance results on test tones. Now, tell me this:

WHO LISTENS TO TEST TONES?

People -- at least most NORMAL people, including audiophiles, use speakers to listen to MUSIC and MOVIES. If NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE can be determined from 2 brands of cable given a sampling of music and movie material in a double blind test, isn't it safe to say that unless you WANT to spend thousands of dollars on pure silver rope, there's no reason other than bragging rights to do so?

but in my own blind tests performed at home I picked out the cable 10/10 times. So that's good enough for me. And it sure as heck wasn't the most expensive one either.

You're probably going to tell me that all CD players sound the same too aren't you?

What?? You did your own "blind" tests on cable quality and its effect on sound reproduction? Explain how you performed your "experiment."

 

[Howard]

I too am curious. How did you tell which was the "better" one if it was blind?

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: glen


I say they all sound alike, and you say no they don't if you live in a humid climate and an elephant steps on the connector, and it breaks, then no electricity will flow and they will sound different. Good God. You really had to go to an extreme length to find a way to disagree with me. Then you say I am a predisposed Brick Wall. Thanks a fvcking lot.

calm down, breathe, your are thinking too deeply, perhaps you have some of that lamp cord wrapped around your carotids.....

Well usually the people with the so called $10k speakers have a checkbook to write checks out from and not much in the way of knowledge except what they get fed to them.

I will tell you, you are talking speaker wires, and usually without ends....there is a big difference picking up a set of $1 interconnects that have poor solder joints and immediately make noise from day 1. This has happened to me. I have had a $10k+ system (Definitive, Rotel, Marantz, Mits, Toshiba), as well as a few sub $5k systems, but more importantly I have owned about 10+ systems myself and have helped on about 50+ home theatre and car stereo purchases and installs....so I have bought a ton of items and used a ton of items. I do this frugally, but I don't want headaches either.

I will say after about $50 retail interconnects give you diminishing returns even if you have radiating noise / interference. Of course sometimes looks are important...but I usually do stealth installs. I usually shoot for $10-20 per interconnect on a higher end system and $10 or less on a cheap one....again usually if there is no interference use what came in the box and forget about it.

In Florida oxidation is a factor, esp in vehicles and esp by the ocean. I have had to remove crappy connectors installers have used to replace them as the music still played except for noise (static sounds and hiss).

However I am not about to take a 20year old lamp and use that as a speaker connect....one it's ugly and two its not that flexible as modern cable. Flexible = laying flat.

Also on ultra high powered installs, home or car not all gauges are equal for speaker cable your 20g or so lampcord won't work so well there.

Å

 

[Shockwave]

For electrical transmission cable is cable.
For noise rejection we get into another field entirely. However, your house isnt a noisy environment really, so no worries. Buy whats on sale.

 

[Viperoni]

Originally posted by: glen
I have well over $10,000 in speakers alone.
Let me assure you copper wire is copper wire.
There are only so many mines, and so many extrusion facilities.
They are all they same except for the jacket.
That is right - the copper wire in all the different brands of audiophool wire is extruded from the same exact plant.

Some wire companies add in resistors, which makes short runs sound liek long runs of wire.

What matters marketing.

NO ONE HAS EVER DISTINGUISHED BETWEEN ELECTRICAL LAMP CORD WIRE CUT FROM A 20 YEAR OLD LAMP, AND UBER EXPENSIVE CABLES IN ANY ABX TEST DONE.

OMG NOES!!!!!!!!! I SPENT SO MUCH MONEY ON MY SPEAKER WIRES AND NOW YOU TELL ME THEY'RE NO BETTER THAN A LAMPCORD???

I WON'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




To the participants of the thread, just wait till you open up a (typical) $5000 speaker and see the wiring inside.


As for analog audio and video interconnects, good shielding and the proper impedance can probably go a long way.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: MazerRackham

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: amnesiac
Hahahahahaahahahhhahaha

Nice, Glen. :beer:😀

Self proclaimed "Audiophiles" will ALWAYS find some reasoning to validate their purchase or fandom of extreme high end equipment, regardless of whether or not such equipment is any better than brand X.

The double-blind tests prove it.

As for the "hey have these been tested vs. each other in a 15khz sweep test tones yada yada yada..."

Okay, great. The $15,000 a foot cables have perfect impedance results on test tones. Now, tell me this:

WHO LISTENS TO TEST TONES?

People -- at least most NORMAL people, including audiophiles, use speakers to listen to MUSIC and MOVIES. If NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE can be determined from 2 brands of cable given a sampling of music and movie material in a double blind test, isn't it safe to say that unless you WANT to spend thousands of dollars on pure silver rope, there's no reason other than bragging rights to do so?

but in my own blind tests performed at home I picked out the cable 10/10 times. So that's good enough for me. And it sure as heck wasn't the most expensive one either.

You're probably going to tell me that all CD players sound the same too aren't you?

What?? You did your own "blind" tests on cable quality and its effect on sound reproduction? Explain how you performed your "experiment."

SO changed cables while I was out of the room. She then asked me to name which cable it was A, B or C or no change as I listened to some very familiar tracks. Sure it isn't ideal conditions but its good enough for me.

It IS generally accepted that eletrostats are very picky with cables/amps.

 

[spidey07]

$5000 speaker and see the wiring inside

I have on mine and it is at least 10 gauge twisted pair.

 

[EngenZerO]

what ever your wallet feels like affording.

 

[Koing]

10% of your system is a good 'rough' cost that magazines have said.

Seems reasonable to me. If you plough $10k to your system you will at least want $1k of cables. But I'm sure if you can sink $10k in to a system an extra $1k isn't that much, considering how much you spent!

Ditto about the double blind test.

Koing

 

[glen]

Spidey07,
No I will not tell you that they all sound the same.
One of the earliest CD players was a Phillips CD100. I don't think it was a production model, just some prototype, which a small number of which were built. In ABX testing, people were able to distinguish it from other CD players. But, that is the only one. All the rest sound the same.

Now, obviously there are many people who disagree and pay a lot for their CD players. No problem.
We can check this using the scientific method. All the ABX testing is attempting to do is see if humans can hear a difference between components when they listen to them side by side, then they hear X which is randomly A or B. All you have to do is guess what X is more than 50% of the time, and that demonstrates that you can hear a difference. It still does not say which is better. Anyway, this is not me saying it. It is just science and statistics. The listeners in these tests are those, like yourself, who will swear on their mother that they can hear a difference. Just look at the web site, read the testing methodology. If there was a difference, some amplifier company, or CD player manufacturer, or cable maker, would find some dude with uber hearing, a ringer of sorts, to go and take these tests. I have to conclude based on the evidence what the ABX folks have found. Here is the link:
http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_data.htm
to the data page. If you want to read about the scientific or statistical methodology or anything else, use the links.

These guys have the published peer reviewed testing and you cna read about for free on the web.
To this day, no one has disputed it and backed it up with double blind testing.
This has been around for years.
If there was a difference, somebody would have disputed it and done the testing and published the results. Sony, or Pioneer, or somebody would have done it. No one has.