Monitor refresh rate matters?

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deepinya

Golden Member
Jan 29, 2003
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thank you.

of the two monitors, the 120Hz is 4 years newer (2009 vs 2005). it claims better contrast, brightness, and view angle. It actually claims worse refresh rate (3ms g2g vs 2ms g2g, 5ms b2w vs 2ms b2w), but that is probably due to marketing BS, back in 2005 most LCD monitors were claiming 2ms for what was in reality 12ms to 20ms refresh rate monitors. However, I cannot say that with certainty about that specific model without further research, and I am having problems finding an in depth review by a professional website like anandtech that actually performs their own measurements. There are, of course, many other differences which are undocumented there (but would be listed in a proper review if I manage to find one)

There is indeed no comparison between the two monitors, but the fact that one is 120Hz and one is 60Hz is far from the only difference between them.
Actually... I just had a wonderful idea... your newer monitor specifies that it can operate between 60Hz and 120Hz...
so why not test it out in 60Hz mode and compare? that is a far fairer comparison between 60Hz and 120Hz, since you are using the same monitor you are guaranteed that all other factors are identical.


Let me interject since I had the same monitor. There were times when I loaded mw2 and noticed it was in 60hz rather than 120hz. I noticed it right away. I eventually had to lock the refresh in my video card to 120hz.

The 2ms/3ms/10ms are response times which are different than refresh rate. The lower the resonse time the lower the ghosting. Refresh rate helps keep the game smooth with no stutter.

Some people just dont notice it while others see it instantly. Everyones eyes are different.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
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Let me interject since I had the same monitor. There were times when I loaded mw2 and noticed it was in 60hz rather than 120hz. I noticed it right away. I eventually had to lock the refresh in my video card to 120hz.
ok, thats a much better comparison than. Can you quantify the differences a little for us on NWN @ 60Hz and @120Hz on that same monitor? I would appreciate it.

The 2ms/3ms/10ms are response times which are different than refresh rate. The lower the resonse time the lower the ghosting. Refresh rate helps keep the game smooth with no stutter.

Technically speaking, LCDs don't have a refresh rate as the term is used in CRTs, their pixels are always on.
However, monitor makers have decided to call TWO completely different things "refresh rate" in an LCD monitor:
1. The frequency it takes pixels to change color (measured either black to white, gray to gray, or green to green), (this if a function of the LCD panel)
2. The frequency in which the monitor polls the video card for frames & initiates a frame change (these are not clearly separated, as they are assumed to be the same, but some monitor makers have fake higher refresh rate monitors that only poll the video card faster but update @ the same rate), (this is a function of the controller much more than the LCD panel)
All frequency is measured in Hz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz
There are many other things that are simply not even named / measured. For example, I calculated that it takes a minimum of 6.2ms to transfer a 1920x1200 image over HDMI/single link DVI. So if your monitor has a 2ms g2g rate, well, it has to get an image before changing the pixels to it, and thus will take 8.2ms.

#1 and #2 are indeed completely different things, but both of those are often called "refresh rate" (or "response time" or "response rate" or anything else marketing came up with) by monitor manufacturers, despite the fact that LCDs do not refresh at all (according to the definition of refresh rate used in CRTs). That is understandable since the word refresh is generic and versatile and all of those changes (including line refreshing on a CRT) are technically a "refresh" according to the dictionary definition of the word, but it would have stood to reason that a new name would have been invented, rather then new definitions given to an already existing term. Thus "refresh rate" has 3 meanings in monitors terminology.

That being said, some monitor makers are more responsible and call #1 "response time", wikipedia seems to agree with those and tries to separate the two, which is a lot less confusing. Visio was calling their response time refresh rate in their documents which I just looked at, which threw me off as I was copy pasting from them.
For ease of communication I will refer to #1 as response time in our further communications (I typically do, because its a lot better a name than refresh rate, but the visio documentation threw me off)

this is still confusing btw because there are so many other things called "response time", furthermore, it only marginally has anything to do with "response"... for ideal clarity, lets call it "monitor response time" though

PS. in regards to manufacturers seperating #2 into its components and using only one (or maybe they are flat out lying?)...
480Hz refresh rate TVs are perfect example... the samsung 480Hz refresh rate TV supposedly has a response time of 4ms.
480Hz = 2.083ms

yet it takes 6.2ms to transfer the image over, and takes 4ms to change pixels. those numbers do not add up. A theoretical maximum refresh rate of a 4ms display with 1920x1200 resolution can be acquired via:
time to transfer + time to change pixels
aka 6.2 + 4 = 10.2ms = 98.04Hz
to be fair its probably 1920x1080, so thats 5.58ms to transfer, so 5.58ms + 4ms = 9.58 ms = 104.4Hz

EDIT: I goggled it, samsung is just flat out lying, their 480Hz refresh rate plasma TV is actually 60Hz
explained in detail here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1047145
 
Last edited:

mv2devnull

Golden Member
Apr 13, 2010
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EDIT: I goggled it, samsung is just flat out lying, their 480Hz refresh rate plasma TV is actually 60Hz
That is called "marketing". What they sell as as "480 Hz" is entirely different from what a "120 Hz 3D stereo" means.
 

deepinya

Golden Member
Jan 29, 2003
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@taltamir- I can tell you 60hz was absolutely unplayable for me. Moving objects or spinning my view was a flicker nightmare. Almost like my eyes were blinking super fast. MW2 is locked at 90fps but other games like l4d2 I played @ 125 were even more noticeable.


refresh and response are words most people are familiar with so I just stick with them....whether the term is "correct" or not really doesnt matter to me as long as the point gets across.
 

DarkUltra

Member
Aug 14, 2009
27
0
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Correct terms are always needed for a good discussion. Anywa, if your game does not manage to go over 60FPS, the sample-and-hold smearing will be the same as a 60hz LCD monitor. Except mouse movement in Windows and games with a mouse pointer. Unless the pointer is part of the 3d engine and is not rendered to its own layer (check out Freelancer and ET: Quake Wars main menus, horrible mouse lag if you have v-sync and low fps). That means, if Starcraft 2 is running at 40FPS, your mouse is still updated at 120 times per second. This means better and quicker and more precise control on units, better gameplay.

Starcraft_2_and_Desktop_120Hz_cursor.png
 

DarkUltra

Member
Aug 14, 2009
27
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0
Havent you guys read any 120hz LCD 3d monitor reviews? They often rave about how much a difference 60hz to 120hz is.

The ASUS VG236H was my first exposure to 120Hz refresh displays that aren’t CRTs, and the difference is about as subtle as a dump truck driving through your living room. I spent the first half hour seriously just dragging windows back and forth across the desktop - from a 120Hz display to a 60Hz, stunned at how smooth and different 120Hz was. Yeah, it’s that different.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3842/asus-vg236h-review-our-first-look-at-120hz

120hz lcd Smoother motion and the lack of RTC artifacts leave a highly positive impression, making you unwilling to return to 60Hz.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/display/samsung-sm2233rz_5.html#sect0
 
Nov 26, 2005
15,189
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Havent you guys read any 120hz LCD 3d monitor reviews? They often rave about how much a difference 60hz to 120hz is.

The ASUS VG236H was my first exposure to 120Hz refresh displays that aren’t CRTs, and the difference is about as subtle as a dump truck driving through your living room. I spent the first half hour seriously just dragging windows back and forth across the desktop - from a 120Hz display to a 60Hz, stunned at how smooth and different 120Hz was. Yeah, it’s that different.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3842/asus-vg236h-review-our-first-look-at-120hz

120hz lcd Smoother motion and the lack of RTC artifacts leave a highly positive impression, making you unwilling to return to 60Hz.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/display/samsung-sm2233rz_5.html#sect0

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