Money, What Is It? (video)

[Nielsio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gizetn5VuA0

I made this video. What do you guys think of it?

 

[LegendKiller]

Von Mises garbage. Ohh boy, gloom and doom with comparisons to Wiemar Republic comparisons with "death and collapse" prognostications.

Commodity currencies rule, right? Ohh wait, they failed dozens of times in history and do NOT stop politicians from incurring more debt. There are numerous times in history whereby runs on a country's gold reserves from JUST government debt collapsed currencies, or nearly so.

Then debt being blamed on politicians, not the people, also leading to death.

Kings acting like adults? Monarchies being superior?

WOW, did this guy suddenly say that monarchies would have lead to higher standards of living? Wow....

Monarchy being a "lesser evil"? What the flying fuck?

But hey, ignore history, because we say so!

So private property rights means you can anything you want any time you want? What about everybody else's rights?

private property rights is your ability to buy and keep property, not to enforce your beliefs, such as smoking on everybody to their detriment.

Thanks for posting this bullshit. I never knew just how nutty Austrian Economists were. I mean, I knew they were nutty, but I had no idea they were this batshit crazy crazy.

 

[PrinceofWands]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gizetn5VuA0

I made this video. What do you guys think of it?

I think the guy's a raving lunatic, but *shrug, nothing particularly poor quality about the video itself.

 

[sandorski]

Gold Standard is dead and for good reason. Deal with it.

 

[JS80]

The guy doesn't understand the concept of money. Fiat money is extremely efficient and effective, and the most adaptable. Any currency based on commodities is prone to even MORE manipulation and asset hoarding, which leads to concentration of power, which leads to rebellion, wars, death. Notice I said prone to MORE manipulation, implying of course fiat is not "perfect" because it can be manipulated also. But in a democratic society, fiat money is less prone to manipulation.

 

[Nielsio]

Commodity currencies rule, right? Ohh wait, they failed dozens of times in history and..

How can a commodity currency 'fail'?

..do NOT stop politicians from incurring more debt.

I don't think that was claimed. Do you agree that a free market commodity money makes it harder for reckless spending (and thus savings destruction) to occur?

There are numerous times in history whereby runs on a country's gold reserves from JUST government debt collapsed currencies, or nearly so.

Then debt being blamed on politicians, not the people, also leading to death.

Can you give a specific example? Because I don't believe those were cases of free market commodity moneys.

So private property rights means you can anything you want any time you want? What about everybody else's rights?

Property rights means you can do what you want unless someone else's property or person is harmed. Property rights do not mean you can do whatever you want.

private property rights is your ability to buy and keep property, not to enforce your beliefs, such as smoking on everybody to their detriment.

The example that was given had to do with someone's private bar. In the case of a private bar, the customers decide to go there or not. The same way I could let friends come into my private home. If the visitors or customers do not like smoke in a place where is smoked, they are free to not come. If they do decide to go to such places, then they have agree with the situation as it is.

If I agree to go sky-diving, then I agree with the risks it includes.

 

[JMapleton]

Commodity currencies rule, right? Ohh wait, they failed dozens of times in history and do NOT stop politicians from incurring more debt.

How many times have currencies fallen and become worthless in the past 2000 years?

How many times has gold become worthless in the past 2000 years?

You tell me which ones have "failed."

A gold coin from 5000 years ago is still worth significant value today. No fiat currency has ever sustained value, all have devalued and eventually crumbled to nothing.

 

[JMapleton]

But in a democratic society, fiat money is less prone to manipulation.

BWAHAHAHAHHAHa

*pauses*

BWAHSHAHAHAHAHAHAA

You tell me how a person can print "gold" and then maybe you'll have a point. Otherwise you're clueless.

FACT: Gold has held significant value in nearly every single part of the globe, in nearly every civilization, for the last 4000 years.

No government or politician is ever to be trusted. Gold is more than just a keeper of value, it's a universal currency that is accepted in every part of the world, every language, every country, in any amount, for thousands of years without fail. If you cannot see this you're trolling.

 

[CycloWizard]

BWAHAHAHAHHAHa

*pauses*

BWAHSHAHAHAHAHAHAA

You tell me how a person can print "gold" and then maybe you'll have a point. Otherwise you're clueless.

FACT: Gold has held significant value in nearly every single part of the globe, in nearly every civilization, for the last 4000 years.

No government or politician is ever to be trusted. Gold is more than just a keeper of value, it's a universal currency that is accepted in every part of the world, every language, every country, in any amount, for thousands of years without fail. If you cannot see this you're trolling.

I'm not very knowledgeable about currency exchange, but I have my doubts about paying for a movie at the mall with a bar of gold.

Gold is only valuable because people value it. It has some technical uses, but the amounts used are so minute that they could never contribute to any intrinsic value as a commodity. The only reason I can see why it has been treated as a currency throughout history is its mystical power over women - the same thing that makes diamonds valuable today. Thus, I can only conclude that the use of gold as a currency is completely arbitrary.

 

[JMapleton]

Gold Standard is dead and for good reason. Deal with it.

You know very well the reason for this. Politicians want to be able to tap into the good credit of the United States by printing money to buy votes through social programs and wars.

If politicians could not print money to pay off old debts, gold based governments would go bankrupt from debt fueled spending from politicians bankrupting governments and causing revolutions.

Did you hear me right? Yes metal based currencies could cause governments to bankrupt themselves and cause revolutions and the reformation of governments, which is a good thing. Two reasons why:

1. If governments cannot bail themselves out of debt related problems, after trial and error, governments will impose self regulation. Why did Wall Street and the banking industry cause such harm with lending 5 years ago? Because there was no self regulation because of the lack of fear on behalf of banks. They knew they could be bailed out.

2. Furthermore, if governments go bankrupt, it is the citizens who hold the currency, in physical amounts, since gold is universally accepted around the world, it will not lose value and the citizens will not be left holding worthless banknotes when countries go bankrupt like when fiat currency based governments default. Private wealth is preserved! The currencies of countries will OUTLAST the country itself.

Gold is power to the average citizen. Gold is as valuable as ammo in regards to citizens rights and their right to protect themselves against harmful governments. It gives the regulation of wealth to the citizen. The government cannot take your gold when you have guns and they cannot take your guns when you control the wealth/gold (how they build an army to impose restrictions, by printing currency to fund armies).

 

[sandorski]

You know very well the reason for this. Politicians want to be able to tap into the good credit of the United States by printing money to buy votes through social programs and wars.

If politicians could not print money to pay off old debts, gold based governments would go bankrupt from debt fueled spending from politicians bankrupting governments and causing revolutions.

Did you hear me right? Yes metal based currencies could cause governments to bankrupt themselves and cause revolutions and the reformation of governments, which is a good thing. Two reasons why:

1. If governments cannot bail themselves out of debt related problems, after trial and error, governments will impose self regulation. Why did Wall Street and the banking industry cause such harm with lending 5 years ago? Because there was no self regulation because of the lack of fear on behalf of banks. They knew they could be bailed out.

2. Furthermore, if governments go bankrupt, it is the citizens who hold the currency, in physical amounts, since gold is universally accepted around the world, it will not lose value and the citizens will not be left holding worthless banknotes when countries go bankrupt like when fiat currency based governments default. Private wealth is preserved! The currencies of countries will OUTLAST the country itself.

Gold is power to the average citizen. Gold is as valuable as ammo in regards to citizens rights and their right to protect themselves against harmful governments. It gives the regulation of wealth to the citizen. The government cannot take your gold when you have guns and they cannot take your guns when you control the wealth/gold (how they build an army to impose restrictions, by printing currency to fund armies).

Ridiculous.

 

[JMapleton]

I'm not very knowledgeable about currency exchange, but I have my doubts about paying for a movie at the mall with a bar of gold.

Your grandparents did it with silver. Ever seen a pre1965 quarter? Don't laugh.

Gold is on ly valuable because people value it. Ithas some technical uses, but the amounts used are so minute that they could never contribute to any intrinsic value as a commodity. The only reason I can see why it has been treated as a currency throughout history is its mystical power over women - the same thing that makes diamonds valuable today. Thus, I can only conclude that the use of gold as a currency is completely arbitrary.

Partially true. But the same is true for apples or bananas. They're valuable because they taste good and people need them. It's opinion.

Gold is valuable because in order for economies to function, we need currency. So we need it, like a food. Furthermore, it's been universally agreed upon by society to serve the need of a currency for the last 4000 years. This is the "taste/opinion" like the apple or banana.

Gold has a vital purpose and use. Don't be fooled by idiots who think we "don't need" an unmanipulatable (is that a word?) currency. Gold is protection against manipulation by governments and politicians.

 

[JMapleton]

Ridiculous.

Refute me or don't come on here mindless bantering about how fiat currency works, which is implying governments and politician can be trusted to properly use a currency without slowly confiscating savings of the average citizen or abusing government buying power or abusing the ability to issue and repay debt.

In theory, fiat currency works, but in reality it does not because of the ill nature of governments and politicians' ability to take advantage of ignorant voters by using the printing presses to bribe them through government spending in exchange for votes.

 

[CycloWizard]

Your grandparents did it with silver. Ever seen a pre1964 quarter? Don't laugh.

I have some silver coins around here somewhere. However, that's not the point. The point is that your assertion - that gold is a universal currency - is false because I can't spend gold as currency today in the US.

Partially true. But the same is true for apples or bananas. They're valuable because they taste good and people need them. It's opinion.

Gold is valuable because in order for economies to function, we need currency. So we need it, like a food. Furthermore, it's been universally agreed upon by society to serve the need of a currency for the last 4000 years. This is the "taste/opinion" like the apple or banana.

Gold has a vital purpose and use. Don't be fooled by idiots who think we "don't need" an unmanipulatable (is that a word?) currency. Gold is protection against manipulation by governments and politicians.

Gold is valuable as a currency as long as someone else agrees with you. The problem I see with using gold as a currency is that, unless you believe that the Alchemist honors society for chemists and chemical engineers has a real method for turning lead into gold, the amount of gold in the world is fixed. As an engineer, it seems impractical to use a fixed resource as a basis for trade between exponentially growing populations. I'm also not sure how it would be implemented short of a global revolution.

edit: I agree that currency is a valuable method for trading and that government should not be able to manipulate its value. However, I am not convinced that gold is a suitable vehicle.

 

[sandorski]

Refute me or don't come on here mindless bantering about how fiat currency works, which is implying governments and politician can be trusted to properly use a currency without slowly confiscating savings of the average citizen or abusing government buying power or abusing the ability to issue and repay debt.

In theory, fiat currency works, but in reality it does not because of the ill nature of governments and politicians' ability to take advantage of ignorant voters by using the printing presses to bribe them through government spending in exchange for votes.

Read up on some Economic history and see how Fiat Currency is far superior to Gold Standard Currency. Gold is a horrible thing to base Currency on.

 

[JMapleton]

I have some silver coins around here somewhere. However, that's not the point. The point is that your assertion - that gold is a universal currency - is false because I can't spend gold as currency today in the US.

Gold is valuable as a currency as long as someone else agrees with you. The problem I see with using gold as a currency is that, unless you believe that the Alchemist honors society for chemists and chemical engineers has a real method for turning lead into gold, the amount of gold in the world is fixed. As an engineer, it seems impractical to use a fixed resource as a basis for trade between exponentially growing populations. I'm also not sure how it would be implemented short of a global revolution.

edit: I agree that currency is a valuable method for trading and that government should not be able to manipulate its value. However, I am not convinced that gold is a suitable vehicle.

I'll start from the top. As far as silver coins, that is the point. How much did a movie cost 50 years ago? I don't know, let's say a dollar. That's four quarters. How much does a movie cost now? Like $9 bucks?

Find me those four quarters from 50 years ago your grandparents used to buy that movie ticket. A pre 1965 quarter weighs 6.5 grams according to my Whitman Redbook (I keep one on my desk, I metal detect occasionally as a hobby), it was 90% silver and 10% copper. 6.5 grams is 1/5th a troy ounce. Silver trades right now at $19 per troy ounce. That means each pre-1965 quarter has $3.42 worth of silver in it. They had four of them, so that's $13.68 worth of silver today. You can still take those quarters, melt them down, and still buy a movie ticket at today's prices, and have money left over for popcorn and Mike and Ikes.

Find me a fiat dollar bill from that time (although I believe they had silver certificates convertible on demand to physical silver, let's pretend they had a fiat dollar) and you would need 8 more to buy a movie ticket today.

Precious metals preserve wealth for the average citizen because the average citizen does not own true wealth (no gold or silver is not true wealth, it's just a reliable way to preserve wealth), which true wealth is large amounts of supply producing land (farms), factories and businesses, or other basic natural resources (mines, fisheries, etc) or valuable skills (doctors, engineers). The only choice for the average citizen is currency. You take away their ability to preserve their currency and you're stealing their wealth. An economy cannot exist long with such an unequal share of wealth. Citizens need to be mobile and motivated, otherwise they will uprise through force or the election process.

As for your second paragraph.

What do you suggest we use? We need a currency that is universally around the world, that cannot be manipulated by politicians through the artificially creation of, and that can be held privately and in the physical form, to prevent confiscation. Gold and silver has been used for thousands of years because of this. In reality, no metal is better than another, these metals have just been the ones universally accepted over the years and this will not change with the rise of countries like India, where over a billion people value gold as an investment and as jewelry for marriage and social purposes (look up how important gold is to the Indian people, you'll be shocked).

No currency is going to be perfect, even gold. Nothing of this world is perfect, but we have to find the least imperfect solution.

 

[JS80]

BWAHAHAHAHHAHa

*pauses*

BWAHSHAHAHAHAHAHAA

You tell me how a person can print "gold" and then maybe you'll have a point. Otherwise you're clueless.

FACT: Gold has held significant value in nearly every single part of the globe, in nearly every civilization, for the last 4000 years.

No government or politician is ever to be trusted. Gold is more than just a keeper of value, it's a universal currency that is accepted in every part of the world, every language, every country, in any amount, for thousands of years without fail. If you cannot see this you're trolling.

Gold is only worth something because people think they can convert it to currency. Do you think a gold-backed currency is LESS prone to manipulation than pure fiat? With a commodity based currency, the one with most power is one who hoards the most of that commodity. And since society has defined what that commodity is, it is easy to manipulate it. With Fiat, it removes that risk. No more kings, lords and serfs.

Answer this: if you are stranded at the sahara, what is gold worth? Would you trade all your gold for a cup of water? Fiat is the same in the situation right? Both worthless? I just proved my point.

I would bet in 5000 years Gold is worth almost nothing.

 

[JMapleton]

Read up on some Economic history and see how Fiat Currency is far superior to Gold Standard Currency. Gold is a horrible thing to base Currency on.

It's okay to admit you have no argument. You don't need to deflect the argument by saying, "go read a book." Would this history of economics suffice?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_Money_and_Credit

 

[JS80]

Your grandparents did it with silver. Ever seen a pre1965 quarter? Don't laugh.



Partially true. But the same is true for apples or bananas. They're valuable because they taste good and people need them. It's opinion.

Gold is valuable because in order for economies to function, we need currency. So we need it, like a food. Furthermore, it's been universally agreed upon by society to serve the need of a currency for the last 4000 years. This is the "taste/opinion" like the apple or banana.

Gold has a vital purpose and use. Don't be fooled by idiots who think we "don't need" an unmanipulatable (is that a word?) currency. Gold is protection against manipulation by governments and politicians.

Yes, we NEED a currency. But it's better to print a piece of paper with Ben Franklin's mugshot on it and point a gun to your head and force you to use it than a piece of paper that says "redeemable for lump of gold."

 

[JMapleton]

Yes, we NEED a currency. But it's better to print a piece of paper with Ben Franklin's mugshot on it and point a gun to your head and force you to use it than a piece of paper that says "redeemable for lump of gold."

Your comment made no sense. It's never good to point a gun at someone and force them to do something.

I do not advocate, "redeem for gold." I advocate gold and silver coins as a sole currency, and perhaps pure copper for small denominations.

 

[JMapleton]

Gold is only worth something because people think they can convert it to currency. Do you think a gold-backed currency is LESS prone to manipulation than pure fiat? With a commodity based currency, the one with most power is one who hoards the most of that commodity. And since society has defined what that commodity is, it is easy to manipulate it. With Fiat, it removes that risk. No more kings, lords and serfs.

Answer this: if you are stranded at the sahara, what is gold worth? Would you trade all your gold for a cup of water? Fiat is the same in the situation right? Both worthless? I just proved my point.

You literally have the weakest argument possible. Honestly you post some decent stuff and sound intelligent a lot of the time (from what I remember), but your agument is ridiculous and makes no sense. I cannot even piece together the logic you're using.

Do you think a gold-backed currency is LESS prone to manipulation than pure fiat? With a commodity based currency, the one with most power is one who hoards the most of that commodity. And since society has defined what that commodity is, it is easy to manipulate it. With Fiat, it removes that risk. No more kings, lords and serfs.

Huh? Yes it's less able to manipulated because it cannot be CREATED at will by a government for irresponsible purposes!

Fiat currency governments can legally print as much money as they want and exchange them for goods relative to the credit of that country.

You cannot print gold. Let me get this straight. I do not advocate "redeemable for gold" bills. I advocate STRICKLY gold, silver, and possibly copper based coin currencies.

This is exchangeable wealth, IN YOUR HAND, and no government can take away except with a gun. You have wealth, IN YOUR HAND, that if a government fails, it retains value that is exchangeable internationally. Understand? Preservation of wealth.

The government cannot create and devalue it and they cannot steal the buying power it represents by making the bills void (cannot make it void if you hold possession of it).

I would bet in 5000 years Gold is worth almost nothing.

I bet you 50 years from now the US dollar is worth nothing. 50 or 5000? I'll take the one that lasts 5000. I could still be alive 50 years from now.

 

[JSt0rm]

oldie but...

 

[PeshakJang]

You literally have the weakest argument possible. Honestly you post some decent stuff and sound intelligent a lot of the time (from what I remember), but your agument is ridiculous and makes no sense. I cannot even piece together the logic you're using.



Huh? Yes it's less able to manipulated because it cannot be CREATED at will by a government for irresponsible purposes!

Fiat currency governments can legally print as much money as they want and exchange them for goods relative to the credit of that country.

You cannot print gold. Let me get this straight. I do not advocate "redeemable for gold" bills. I advocate STRICKLY gold, silver, and possibly copper based coin currencies.

This is exchangeable wealth, IN YOUR HAND, and no government can take away except with a gun. You have wealth, IN YOUR HAND, that if a government fails, it retains value that is exchangeable internationally. Understand? Preservation of wealth.

The government cannot create and devalue it and they cannot steal the buying power it represents by making the bills void (cannot make it void if you hold possession of it).

It may be less prone to manipulation by government, but I would say it is much more prone to manipulation by private entities.

Say I own a gold and silver mine. What would I do with all the gold and silver I mined? Why would I sell it? I'm basically printing money out of the ground... I can't do anything to make it more or less valuable. I could sit on a pile of gold all my life and basically become a king.

What makes you think the government wouldn't start buying up gold and silver mines? What about Big Gold and big Silver? The corporations that own the mines basically control the level of currency in the world instead of the government. Instead of our government printing money or incurring debt in their respective countries, you have conglomerations of private corporations controlling the supply of currency to the whole world.

Tell me why this is better.

 

[ShawnD1]

oldie but...

LOL
I love you so much for posting this.


Here's a documentary I think everyone should see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXb-LrVkuwM

It's called "The Money Masters" and it's about the history of money. The video series has bits of paranoia in it but overall it's a very good series. It explains how the barter system works. It explains old money systems like the tally stick system. It explains the gold standard. It explains how the gold standard turned into fractional reserve banking. It explains where fiat money comes from.

It's like 3 hours long but it's interesting enough that you won't even notice how long it is (that's what she said). If you have an afternoon to kill or you just want to know more about money, this is the video series to watch. It's also available as a torrent but I won't link that.

Overall, the guy making the video argues in favor of the system Ben Franklin strongly supported. He supports fiat money, but he thinks the Federal Reserve should be a government body rather than a private company because money is too powerful to be left in the hands of private industry. (sort of like how your water supply is regulated by the EPA - because it's important)

 

[JMapleton]

Say I own a gold and silver mine. What would I do with all the gold and silver I mined? Why would I sell it? I'm basically printing money out of the ground... I can't do anything to make it more or less valuable. I could sit on a pile of gold all my life and basically become a king.

I will admit, no situation is perfect. It's just the least imperfect solution.

But your first paragraph is the same as any business and cash. You own a business and hold cash and sit on it. People do the same thing to this day. Old families piling cash for generations. Rockefellers, the DuPonts. I don't see those guys harming anyone, at least until they get involved in politics.

But I see what you're saying. It's like the Saudis controlling oil prices. Gold is not as dependent on new supply as oil is so manipulation could happen but not nearly as much. It would not be as a big of an issue.

What makes you think the government wouldn't start buying up gold and silver mines? What about Big Gold and big Silver? The corporations that own the mines basically control the level of currency in the world instead of the government. Instead of our government printing money or incurring debt in their respective countries, you have conglomerations of private corporations controlling the supply of currency to the whole world.

Metal is not the end all solution. You would need to strangle the government of it's funds so they cannot buy massive mines. This is also why I advocate state's rights and not the federal government having large amounts of power and purchasing power. It's much harder for the state of Wyoming to buy a mine because of the smaller amount of money it controls than it is for the federal government to buy a mine.

You need a Bill of Rights that does not allow the government to hold wealth, an irrevocable amendment that does not let the government have the ability to produce purchasing power besides through a democratic taxation for an agreed upon purpose.

Gold is not an end all solution. But I can assure you it would be much more difficult for a government I envision to use it's power to birth irresponsible spending than it would be for a government that completely creates and controls their currency, as we currently have, where they can just print as much money as they want on a moment's notice. Ultimately the distrust of government must be laser etched into the minds of the citizens and they must rely on small scale and highly democratic (with strong amendments) community governments and associations to provide essential services.